My article, The guns of Red Dawn 30 years later

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Red Dawn is my favorite movie. I was a 15 year old who'd grown up playing in the woods and had been around guns plenty when it came out. I went to the first showing the day it opened. I was the target audience and that movie nailed me dead-center. It was high school kids living in the woods and shooting up Commie invaders, what could have been cooler to a 15 year old budding outdoorsman in 1984?! Kids at my school drew hammer & sickle symbols in the urinals with crayon and it seemed like everybody was anxious about an impending nuclear war with Russia.

I didn't realize the real lessons of the film until years later, and wonder how much they effected my own outlook and beliefs. I grew up in the suburbs of a small city where nobody locked their doors, many people left their keys in their cars, and violent crime was virtually unheard of. Yet on my 18th birthday I bought my first rifle and on my 21st birthday I applied for my first license to carry a concealed pistol and then bought my PPK/S the same day. 30 days later my permit was issued and I've carried every day since. Times have changed and crime is literally everywhere. I'm now 45 and carry a .45. My go-to rifle is an AKM.
 
The original was a fantasy flick. Professional troopies wouldn't have much trouble rounding a bunch of untrained kids up.
"...The film also served as a warning..." Nonsense. You think third world terrs had TV's?
 
The original was a fantasy flick. Professional troopies wouldn't have much trouble rounding a bunch of untrained kids up
I have to disagree here. Rounding up determined opposition in unfriendly, mountainous territory is not easy. Just look at Afghanistan. Well trained armies with helicopters have tried to subdue those guerrilla fighters for decades without success.
 
The original was a fantasy flick. Professional troopies wouldn't have much trouble rounding a bunch of untrained kids up.
"...The film also served as a warning..." Nonsense. You think third world terrs had TV's?
it wasnt a warning to invading armies, it was a warning to our citizenry and to those who would take away our arms, register all the guns (as was pointed out by the 4473 line ) and generally turn us into sheep, easy pickins for a slaughter. Also warned against being ill-prepared to live off the land and in the wilderness.


as to the part of the troops rounding up some insurgents.... its often said that keeping and sustaining an occupying force is just as difficult as capturing the area. A small group like they had in the movie, maybe 6-8 kids living up in the Rocky Mountains, could be near impossible to find for a while. They eventually got them, it just took a few months.
 
Post #53.....

I would suggest reading the non fiction book: Killing Bin Laden by "Dalton Fury".
Fury(a fake name by a former CAG/ACE officer who served in OEF/Jawbreaker) said deep in the caves & tunnels, SAD(spec ops of the CIA) & tier one US military units found stacks & stacks of intel, weapons, ammunition, fake passports, maps, tourist material from major cities in Europe, Asia, USA.
Fury & the other CAG troops/SEALs/SAS/etc were surprised by how much stuff was cached by the terrorists in these locations.
A site with a huge amount that they thought would take 3 days to clear took nearly 6 weeks. :eek:

Rusty
 
I have to disagree here. Rounding up determined opposition in unfriendly, mountainous territory is not easy. Just look at Afghanistan. Well trained armies with helicopters have tried to subdue those guerrilla fighters for decades without success.

The Soviet invasion lasted almost 10 years and cost lives of 2 million Afghans. According to Wikipedia, the Soviet occupation army was about 115 thousand strong, and over all of that time they lost just under 15 thousand troops while controlling all cities and very little of the countryside. The country the Soviets invaded had been in civil war for decades and the large percentage of male population didn't just know how to shoot a gun, they were seasoned fighters. Also, the level of angst against the Soviet invaders was unprecedented - the Soviets were militant atheists who tried to indoctrinate Afghan children against their believes, so for many Afghans not fighting them was simply impossible.

Our / British forces didn't even try to control the whole country, they just wanted to deny it to Al Quaeda and install a friendly Afghan government. Carpet bombing villages is not an option.

Very different from a bunch of teenagers with bows and rifles vs special forces of a county that doesn't have to play by any rules. Not to say that a guerilla resistance to a (theoretical and highly unlikely) Soviet invasion wouldn't achieve anything, but it would not be immediately successful, and even then the success would come via gaining experience after losing many, many, many fighters. And only if the USSR collapsed due to some internal problems / external pressure with guerilla warfare being one of the factors.
 
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The Soviet invasion lasted almost 10 years and cost lives of 2 million Afghans. According to Wikipedia, the Soviet occupation army was about 115 thousand strong, and over all of that time they lost just under 15 thousand troops while controlling all cities and very little of the countryside. The country the Soviets invaded had been in civil war for decades and the large percentage of male population didn't just know how to shoot a gun, they were seasoned fighters. Also, the level of angst against the Soviet invaders was unprecedented - the Soviets were militant atheists who tried to indoctrinate Afghan children against their believes, so for many Afghans not fighting them was simply impossible.

Our / British forces didn't even try to control the whole country, they just wanted to deny it to Al Quaeda and install a friendly Afghan government. Carpet bombing villages is not an option.

Very different from a bunch of teenagers with bows and rifles vs special forces of a county that doesn't have to play by any rules. Not to say that a guerilla resistance to a (theoretical and highly unlikely) Soviet invasion wouldn't achieve anything, but it would not be immediately successful, and even then the success would come via gaining experience after losing many, many, many fighters. And only if the USSR collapsed due to some internal problems / external pressure with guerilla warfare being one of the factors.
Fiction is fiction, as the writer wants to present it. Anything is possible under these conditions.

"Red Dawn" is a well written (and well done in the original film), exploration into "what would you do in this set of circumstances?". I think the young men who resisted were heroes, and didn't run for the Canadian border. This film came out in 1984, if I remember correctly,

I used to lie awake, endless nights in the 1950's, making plans for a similar invasion.


What would you have done, in a like situation ?
 
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I have to disagree here. Rounding up determined opposition in unfriendly, mountainous territory is not easy. Just look at Afghanistan. Well trained armies with helicopters have tried to subdue those guerrilla fighters for decades without success.
The Soviet invasion lasted almost 10 years and cost lives of 2 million Afghans. According to Wikipedia, the Soviet occupation army was about 115 thousand strong, and over all of that time they lost just under 15 thousand troops while controlling all cities and very little of the countryside. The country the Soviets invaded had been in civil war for decades and the large percentage of male population didn't just know how to shoot a gun, they were seasoned fighters. Also, the level of angst against the Soviet invaders was unprecedented - the Soviets were militant atheists who tried to indoctrinate Afghan children against their believes, so for many Afghans not fighting them was simply impossible.

Our / British forces didn't even try to control the whole country, they just wanted to deny it to Al Quaeda and install a friendly Afghan government. Carpet bombing villages is not an option.

Very different from a bunch of teenagers with bows and rifles vs special forces of a county that doesn't have to play by any rules. Not to say that a guerilla resistance to a (theoretical and highly unlikely) Soviet invasion wouldn't achieve anything, but it would not be immediately successful, and even then the success would come via gaining experience after losing many, many, many fighters. And only if the USSR collapsed due to some internal problems / external pressure with guerilla warfare being one of the factors.

The object of guerrilla warfare is not to defeat the enemy. It is to harass the enemy until they give up and go home or can be defeated in some other manner. The Vietnam conflict is a perfect example. Most of the guerrilla fighters were handed a gun and told to fight Americans. They killed many thousands of American soldiers and were a major reason that the US could not stay in the war politically. They were not trained soldiers but they harassed the enemy until, ultimately, the enemy gave up. Afghanistan was the same. In both cases the casualties for the guerrillas were enormous yet ultimately their opponents gave up.
In Red Dawn you have a fictitious band of guerrillas that harassed the enemy and drained resources. It focuses on one small band in one small geographic area. Is it plausible? Heck it's a movie so anything is plausible. If that one small group harassed an enemy force for several months before ultimately being destroyed then they were, in guerrilla terms, successful.
 
My nephew spent 18 years as a special forces operator in Africa, Afghanistan, and Iraq and I believe from the stories he has relayed that he would disagree with the contention that regular army forces could quickly dispatch a determined civilian resistance group. History is filled with successful guerrilla actions carried out by a small dedicated citizenry. It is very easy to disrupt things; it is very difficult to control things.
 
Good discussion. I love the original. Have not yet seen the remake.
I watched it in the theater when I was 13. Like another poster said, I was the target audience.
 
Good article; thanks. Really liked the original movie. Watched it again with my kids a few years ago; really made them think. I didn't think the remake was bad ... just not as good as the original.
 
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I have to disagree here. Rounding up determined opposition in unfriendly, mountainous territory is not easy. Just look at Afghanistan. Well trained armies with helicopters have tried to subdue those guerrilla fighters for decades without success.


The object of guerrilla warfare is not to defeat the enemy. It is to harass the enemy until they give up and go home or can be defeated in some other manner. The Vietnam conflict is a perfect example. Most of the guerrilla fighters were handed a gun and told to fight Americans. They killed many thousands of American soldiers and were a major reason that the US could not stay in the war politically. They were not trained soldiers but they harassed the enemy until, ultimately, the enemy gave up. Afghanistan was the same. In both cases the casualties for the guerrillas were enormous yet ultimately their opponents gave up.
In Red Dawn you have a fictitious band of guerrillas that harassed the enemy and drained resources. It focuses on one small band in one small geographic area. Is it plausible? Heck it's a movie so anything is plausible. If that one small group harassed an enemy force for several months before ultimately being destroyed then they were, in guerrilla terms, successful.
The difference is, neither Vietnam nor Afghanistan were existential threats to the US, and also in Vietnam the commitment at first was half-arsed and the war was directed by politicians who drew arbitrary lines and said "you don't bomb past this point". You can't win a war like this. But the bottom line, we were not ready to pay the price required to completely subjugate the invaded country. Not only the price in the lives of the US soldiers, but also the moral / ethical price of forcing your soldiers to commit indiscriminate mass murder - something that simply wouldn't be possible in a democratic country.

Look at the history of Irish independence. Ireland was under British rule for about 700 years and every uprising (and there were quite a few) was crushed mercilessly. It finally gained independence when the people back in (by now democratic) England were no longer willing to allow the British army to indiscriminately massacre civilians to keep Irish in the Empire against their will. Or look at WW2 Yugoslavia. It's a mountaneous country which had extremely strong guerrilla resistance movement against the Nazis. But the Nazis had no moral problems depopulating the entire country, if needed, to put the resistance down - and they would do it if they didn't lose the war.

In the extremely improbable case of US being completely overrun by USSR (I don't recall if that was the case in Red Dawn or if it was only a part of the country) it would all depend on how dedicated / ruthless / brainwashed the Soviets were. A dedicated, well armed modern army of couple million, willing to pay the moral price in civilian lives, not facing a powerful external force, should have no problems keeping down the population of 200-300 million people armed with rifles, bows and handguns. First, reduce the population to more manageable size via direct murder and starvation. Mongols had perfected this approach.

As I recall the Red Dawn - it was decades since I saw it - the invaders were pretty dedicated.

Where guerilla movement does become very important is in the Civil war / military dictatorship scenario. It's one thing to keep killing enemy, even enemy civilians. It's quite another to wage war against your own people. Soldiers start getting ideas. The resistance may then help reach the tipping point. But as long as the army is well equipped, large, modern, and committed to the cause, it will maintain control of the country - unless it gets it's butt kicked by the stronger, better equipped armed force.

Sorry for the long winged reply..
 
The crowd I went to see it with was mid 20's in a college town. One was a Polish visiting student. His comments were interesting. He thought the Communist in the movie were too nice and security, especialy in the drug store scene was too lax.

There was also another Warsaw pact person with him. She would not comment for she came to speak to a class I was in on East European Communist systems and became convinced I was KGB assigned to keep tabs on the Russian/ Warsaw pact students. I believe had she known I would be in the SF club group she would not have come. I felt kind of sorry for all the CommiCon folks as they were getting just a little taste of what freedom is before being shipped back to Mordor. They had travel restrictions BTW and were not allowed more than 90 miles from campus.

I liked the original movie and have no desire to see the remake.

-kBob
 
I forgot to ask if any of you have read "Not this August" or the "Azreal Uprising" (Might have misspelled that last one and no longer have the book)


Recall also that this was the day of such jewels as "The Day After" and other TEOTWAWKI films and shows and books

Red Dawn was neat to some folks because the characters did not just roll over and die...........

The threat of Nuke war was very real when Red Dawn was made and folks did plan for it believe it or not. If anything there wee more upper case Survivalist when Red Dawn was mad than their are now even with the increase in general population. It is interesting that Red Dawn used high school kids. What many people that said such resistance is useless forgot was that many vets also live in the US. Might a 30 year old with six years of Combat arms experience have done better? Might not the kids have benifited from the experience of a military man, active or "retired"? (Oh wait they did)

Any how it was a fun movie.

-kBob
 
In the extremely improbable case of US being completely overrun by USSR (I don't recall if that was the case in Red Dawn or if it was only a part of the country) it would all depend on how dedicated / ruthless / brainwashed the Soviets were. A dedicated, well armed modern army of couple million, willing to pay the moral price in civilian lives, not facing a powerful external force, should have no problems keeping down the population of 200-300 million people armed with rifles, bows and handguns. First, reduce the population to more manageable size via direct murder and starvation. Mongols had perfected this approach.

Except for the fact that the population would have military units backing them up during an invasion.

When is the last time you saw Red Dawn? They certainly didn't have immediate success. They were not even defeating the enemy...in the end pretty much all of them got killed. What they did was divert Russian manpower and resources.
Also...at the beginning, they were not fighting Soviet Soldiers...the Colonel, or whatever he was admitted straight up that he and his men (they were Cubans and Nicaraguans) were used to fighting as guerrillas themselves, not suppressing guerrillas. They called on the Soviets to come in, and the Soviets eventually killed most of the Wolverines.

Fantasy or no...having the ability to form a resistance is better than not....every major invasion has had them.....the Jews against the Romans, the Spanish against the French in the Peninsular war (where the term guerrilla was invented) the Russians against the French in 1812, the French against the Nazis...the Finns against the Russians, the Russians against the Nazis, the Mujaheddin against the Soviets.

As far as bringing up the Soviet Afghan Conflict I don't consider losing 13% of their forces something to sneeze at...not to mention the Soviets were there helping a faction of the Afghan Government.
 
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Except for the fact that the population would have military units backing them up during an invasion.

When is the last time you saw Red Dawn? They certainly didn't have immediate success. They were not even defeating the enemy...in the end pretty much all of them got killed. What they did was divert Russian manpower and resources.
Also...at the beginning, they were not fighting Soviet Soldiers...the Colonel, or whatever he was admitted straight up that he and his men (they were Cubans and Nicaraguans) were used to fighting as guerrillas themselves, not suppressing guerrillas. They called on the Soviets to come in, and the Soviets eventually killed most of the Wolverines.

I haven't seen the RD literally since it came out, so I don't recall the whole story... my bad.

Fantasy or no...having the ability to form a resistance is better than not....

Never argued with this. I am merely trying to disprove the silly notion that a bunch of poorly trained yahoos with customized ARs and ivory grip $500 pistols can take on a dedicated major modern military force and win.

every major invasion has had them.....the Jews against the Romans, the Spanish against the French in the Peninsular war (where the term guerrilla was invented)

In these times, the armament of a "proper" army wasn't all that different from what a well equipped resistance fighter could obtain. It was the organization, leadership, training and tactics that made the difference; especially in Antiquity. An armed Jewish fighter in Bar-Kokhba revolt was not much different in appearance from a Roman legionnaire. As a matter of fact, the famous Spartans - probably the best fighting force of it's time - were famously lightly armored and went to war almost naked with little armor protection and a small cheap helmet.

the Russians against the French in 1812,

The Grande Armee was done in by winter, starvation, and disease. Russian partisan resistance was a major nuisance but their scorched-earth policy was the main cause of Napoleon's defeat (and the fact that the Russian army was artfully avoiding being slaughtered until Napoleon's army was all but dead).

the French against the Nazis...

Sorry, the impact of French resistance was negligible. Not intended as an insult to those brave heroes who fought the Nazis.

the Finns against the Russians

Was a conventional war by well armed, well trained, well led, highly motivated armed force fighting in a familiar terrain vs extremely poorly led and poorly trained Red Army. In the end the Red Army won, even though with huge losses. But they achieved their initial objective (moving the border further West from Leningrad by taking some of the Finnish territory).

the Russians against the Nazis,

Was a conventional war fought on a massive, unprecedented scale by a huge mechanized modern army backed by an industry capable of outproducing the Nazis by a wide margin. Those 84,000 T-34 tanks and over 30,000 Yak fighters and 36,000 Il-2 ground attack planes were not produced by guerrilla shops hidden in a village smithy. The Soviet resistance movement was also very large but a lot of times it acted more like an army behind enemy lines, manned with large % of regular soldiers, led by professional commanders, supplied via massive air drops, and with units reporting to the central command and working to the single master plan. This kind of industrial-scale resistance would be impossible without the main fighting force supporting and directing it from behind the front lines. And it came at a terrible price, if I recall my history books, in one of the Soviet Republics (Belorussia ?) the civilian death toll was 1/4 of prewar population, largely due to the guerrilla war and Nazi retributions.

the Mujaheddin against the Soviets.

As far as bringing up the Soviet Afghan Conflict I don't consider losing 13% of their forces something to sneeze at...not to mention the Soviets were there helping a faction of the Afghan Government.

They didn't lose 13% of their forces. They stayed in the country for 9+ years, maintaining a presence of 115K troops, and lost 15k killed over that time. That's about 1,600 per year, or about 1.5 percent of the total force deployed on a yearly basis.
 
They didn't lose 13% of their forces. They stayed in the country for 9+ years, maintaining a presence of 115K troops, and lost 15k killed over that time. That's about 1,600 per year, or about 1.5 percent of the total force deployed on a yearly basis.

15,000 troops lost is nothing to sneeze at no matter how long they were there. I don't think the Russians thought their campaign in Afghanistan was very successful.

I am merely trying to disprove the silly notion that a bunch of poorly trained yahoos with customized ARs and ivory grip $500 pistols can take on a dedicated major modern military force and win.

and who argued that? Seems to me the argument is that it has its place in warfare, not that it is an effective strategy to win a war...

If you guys are arguing something based on the movie Red Dawn, then you need to go watch it again. There is nothing in there suggesting that the guerrillas won the war, or even had a major impact on the overall war.
 
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Well, seeing how you edited your reply, I will take out my calculations.

15,000 troops lost is nothing to sneeze at no matter how long they were there. I don't think the Russians thought their campaign in Afghanistan was very successful.

They didn't have a clear objective, they went in on a whim of a bunch of senile Party elders who got fed up with Amin and wanted to replace him with a more "reliable" Nadjubulla. They didn't intend to get involved into a protracted conflict. Nevertheless, they could've stayed there another 10, 20, 30 years if the situation back in the USSR didn't change. The USSR of 1980s was nothing like a tightly run dictatorship of 1940s.

and who argued that? Seems to me the argument is that it has its place in warfare, not that it is an effective strategy to win a war...

I am not saying you argue that. But there seems to be a whole lot of people here and on most other gun forums who believe they can win a modern war if only they had enough rifles.

If you guys are arguing something based on the movie Red Dawn, then you need to go watch it again. There is nothing in there suggesting that the guerrillas won the war, or even had a major impact on the overall war.


I haven't seen this movie since it first came out, to be honest.

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Where guerilla movement does become very important is in the Civil war / military dictatorship scenario. It's one thing to keep killing enemy, even enemy civilians. It's quite another to wage war against your own people. Soldiers start getting ideas. The resistance may then help reach the tipping point. But as long as the army is well equipped, large, modern, and committed to the cause, it will maintain control of the country - unless it gets it's butt kicked by the stronger, better equipped armed force.
I remember reading about a bunch of farmers and shopkeepers that did something like that, went up against the most highly trained, professional military in the world.. They did get their butts kicked over and over until they got some outside military aid in weapons and training, IIRC. When learning in the school of hard knocks, education comes at a terrible price, but they did it until they won the only real important battle - the last one. Some place called Yorktown, I think?
Red Dawn was a great movie, and that's what it was - a movie. They tried to be realistic, but it was still a movie. I loved it, being part of the "target audience" as it were, and standing on a desert hilltop waving a Hungarian AKM clone, yelling "Wolverines!" when shooting at a wild cat range. Not the BRIGHTEST thing I ever did on a range, but oh well. We loved it, plus the story about the producers trucking the Soviet "tanks", (built on an M-48 chassis, IIRC), around LA, and having high level LEO getting very curious about where those Soviet tanks had come from...
I would also submit, sir, that you completely forgot another scenario, where completely untrained and starving residents of a city not only fought back against a very well equipped and professional army which WAS lacking in scruples of any kind whatsoever, but how they ended up tying up considerable military resources for a surprising length of time. It was how a simple uprising led to a story told for decades...never forget the Warsaw Ghetto. They lost too, but they took a lot of the bastards with them.
 
The Soviets had 2 year conscription. So a very basic math says that their soldiers would be completely rotating out every 2 years, so in 9 years that makes roughly 520,000 men who served in Afghanistan, and 15,000 died there. Which makes their overall casualty rate about 3%.

I went off of your 115K number, then went back and found that supposedly 600K fought in Afghanistan over the course of the war...so I edited that out of my post.

I still don't see where 15,000 lost over 9 years is something to ignore.

and again, there was no depiction of the guerrillas winning the war in Red Dawn. The invading force in their area was not large, nor was it composed of front line troops. The major fighting was elsewhere, and the US military was involved in that. The guerrillas in Red Dawn harassed and killed the enemy, and when a more professional group was brought in to combat them, the guerrillas were all killed.

Guerrilla warfare in an invasion has its purposes, the Spanish in the peninsula war didn't win the war, the British did, but the guerrillas also made it very hard on the French. I don't think many would argue that untrained guerillas are going to defeat a fully trained and equipped military, but I think there is enough evidence to show that they can be an effective nuisance. That is exactly what Red Dawn showed...a nuisance force...not a force which drove the Soviet Army out of the country....
 
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