My confidence in my loading ability is completely shot

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Mike Irwin

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I blew up my Springfield .45 ACP this afternoon at the NRA range.

MTNBKR and I decided to do some shooting.

A couple of weeks ago I loaded up 150 .45 ACP rounds using 4.9 grains of WW 231. A moderately light charge, but nothing out of the ordinary.

On the 7th shot I had a CLASSIC overcharge.

It blew a big chunk of the case web out, the primer is LONG gone, the primer hole is about 2x its normal size and egg shaped.

My hand still hurts, but the Hogue rubber grips helped keep me from getting cut. I did catch some debris in the face, but nothing serious.

Given the problems I was having metering 296 last night with my Lee disk measure, and now this, I'm thinking that I need to investigate this much farther and see if my measure is malfunctioning, but any way you cut it right now, my confidence in my loading ability is completely in the toilet.

I've been loading for 25 years, and this is the first time I've ever had anything like this happen.

I'm VERY glad that I forgot my moon clips, as I wanted to shoot the 1917 Brazilian. I probably would have lost the cylinder.

I've still got 142 loaded .45 ACP rounds that I now don't trust.

Any suggestions on how to check them without disassembly each and every one?

Electronic scale, perhaps?
 
Measure 2 or 3 on the scale, pull the bullet and measure the powder charge in each one to make sure you can accurately define the finished cartridge weight.

How many grains more would it take to make max load? I don't know how light your load is.. but I'd make 100% sure I could detect an overcharge by measuring the finished cartridges...

Or, pull them all..
 
Do you separate different cases by manufacturer? If so, then you might be able to measure an overcharge or undercharge if the cases are all the same, otherwise, you might as well pull every single round, or throw them away.

Powder charging is one of the steps that I really, really slow down at when I'm doing reloading. I usually go quick when I seat, crimp, prime, but in powder charging, I double check and spot check and visually check. Slows down my reloading, but it works for me.

For a progressive, I have a good view of the case interior after it has been charged, and if it looks light, or heavy, off it goes to the powder scale. If the stroke doesn't seem right, off it goes to the powder scale. If I got a phone call, off it goes to the powder scale. Any distraction, and off it goes to the powder scale.
 
Confidence is completely shot

Mike, I've not been loading as long as you have, but here is the procedure I use when loading pistol bullets.
1. I check the scale with a set of weights to make sure nothing has happened to it since I last loaded.
2. I keep a database of loads, and my old Redding Master powder measure has a micrometer so once I have defined a load and have ensured that the powder measure is throwing the correct quantity for the load weight that I have chosen, I write down the micrometer number. I turn the micrometer to that number to start with.
3. I will dump 4-5 loads from the powder measure back into the powder measure hopper, just to make sure things have settled well before loading.
4. Next I weigh the first 5 cartridges, just to make sure that the setting is still valid, and I'm in the ball park.
5. After I'm sure that the powder measure is throwing consistently accurate loads, I will then load a tray (50) cases.
6. I turn the loading tray 90 degrees from the position from which I loaded the cases with the powder measure, and I bring them up close, under a flourescent light fixture, so that I can see how high the load is in the cases.
7. I then look up and down each row, and look for cases that may have a little more or a little less than those in the row.
8. If I can't come up with at least 5 cases that look off, I will randomly pull cases so that out of each box of 50, I am assured to weigh at least 10% of the cases.
9. I then proceed to load the bullet and crimp them, usually in separate steps, except for the .357 and .38 special dies, which roll crimp and set bullet depth all at one time.

I'd be careful about weighing those bad charges with the bullets intact. I have seen lead bullet weight vary considerably. I think if I were you, I'd pull each bullet and start over again. You can do this in 2-3 hours, and think of that versus taking a chance at the possibility of blowing up your gun and putting your eyes out.

Just my .02 worth, thanks, Richard
 
I had a buddy do that to a nice para ordnance.

I will only rarely use a progressive press. I greatly prefer to use a single stage, and physically, with a flashlight, inspect each and every loading block for powder consistency.
 
Bogie,

Interestingly enough, these were loaded in my Lyman Turret, which is decidedly non-progressive.

This was the first ammo that I loaded in this press.

The only thing I can figure is that using the new press got me out of synch somehow.
 
Whoa. Sorry to hear that Mike. With mis matched headstamps you better pull them all. I had a small batch of questionable ones when I was trying to teach my friend to reload and tried weighing them to be able to spot a bad one and it just wasn't possible to be sure between lead and case variations, specially with such a small charge.

Brings me back down to earth a bit just hearing about this.:(

Glad you're ok.
 
Hard for me to control neck tension in mixed cases

Me, I'd know what my bullets weighed. Despite using a California Saeco #130 (respect to the moderator but Gil Hebard did a lot for bullseye shooting too so that's where I bought my stuff) I'd have weighed all the bullets - course they mostly weighed very close - I sometimes thought I might be sorting them back into individual cavities but my match ammo boxes were 50 bullets within my scale limits.

Reminds me of the long arguments over small charges of Bullseye being dangerous in circumstances when a double charge would not be expected to do so much damage leading to arguments over lodged bullets.

In this case I'd look very very closely at the possibility of bullet setback with mixed cases and commercial bullets there may well be some variation in bullet grip.

I used to use a bunch of dies including Lyman Type M expanders so I could frex mix and match among .380, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 to get expanders and sizing to match thick and thin brass jacketed and cast bullets. There used to some very real differences between commercial nickel and military brass in .45ACP for instance so that bullet setback in cases loaded with adjustments for a different case wall thickness and springback is to my mind a real possibility and as likely to account for dramatic results as a load that could stand to go up a little without a catastrophe (not suggesting an increase mind you just saying that the traditional midrange load of a wadcutter with 3.5 grains Bullseye had a fair share of headroom - and I'd expect the load here to have some headroom)
 
Wow!

Mike, you don't mention the bullet you were using with your 4.9 gr. of 231. If a 230, it is several tenths under what I load, with either LRN or FMJ. If a 185 or 200, it is INDEED a light load.

I understand you take full responsibility for the problem, regardless of type of equipment, but I must wonder what gear you used. As you write,
Given the problems I was having metering 296 last night with my Lee disk measure, and now this, I'm thinking that I need to investigate this much farther and see if my measure is malfunctioning . . . .
Click to expand...
- - - I take it this was the measure in use. Not very familiar with that measure, myself. Was it on a progressive press?

The numbers you quote sound as if you have a plenty of experience - - So much so that I hesitate to offer suggestions for fear of giving offense. Still, I offer a couple of my procedures:
- - When I set my powder measure, or when returning to a measure which has been off my press (Dillon 550B) I like to throw and discard two or three charges. Then I dump ten charges into my powder scale pan, and weigh the result. If I'm using a 5.3 gr. charge, then anywhere between 52.8 and 53.2 is "good enough" for standard loads. I do this twice (at least) If the two runs differ by more than .3 total weight, I explore for the reason.

- - I set a goose neck lamp so I can SEE the powder level in each and every charge I throw before placing the bullet on case mouth. Yeah, it is a pain. But in the past 50,000 rounds, I have TWICE caught well-over-intended charges in this manner.

My procedure includes a FULL STOP of loading activity whenever interrupted. I raise the ram to the top, so there's no question of where I was in the operations. THEN, I answer the phone, speak with my wife, whatever. This seems to work.

I'm glad you didn't ruin your pistola.

Best,
Johnny
 
In earlier days when I was trying to track down a powder metering problem, I attempted to use my PACT electronics to determine which reloads were good and which weren't. After pulling 11 supposedly loaded rounds, I found that 2 were very under-loaded. So much powder stuck to the bullet lube that I couldn't get a true weigh-in on the good rounds, and the bad rounds (with no or very little powder) varied by as much as 2-3 full grains.

The variance in brass weight, lead and (I suppose) primer weights made weighing loaded rounds too much of a crapshoot (no pun intended) for me to trust the results. I ended up pulling every round. And throwing out the powder measure.
 
Mike,

All I can say is I am sorry it happened and I am glad that you are not seriously hurt. You are one of the stalwarts here and it surprises me that it happened to you. Not that any of us are immune, but it certainly can happen easily.

How is the gun? I assume salvageable?

As a post mortum, it sounds like a few issuses contributed:
1) new equipment
2) sticky powder measure
3) mixed brass
4) Possible loss of cadence.

Anything else so we can learn from your pain?

And again, very sorry it happened.

Pete
 
I'm not familiar with the operation of the Lyman Turret, but is it possible to eyeball each case after it is filled with powder? A quick glance at each one will tell you if it is too full or empty.

I'm glad you're ok. That's a whole lot worse than taking a rebound in the mouth!
 
Sorry to hear that Mike. You said "The only thing I can figure is that using the new press got me out of synch somehow." and I think you are probably on to something. I know guys who know what they are doing for sure that speak highly of the Lee auto disk measure but I would look at it VERY carefully. I have examined one and wasn't impressed, but in use it might be another story. If it bound a little and didn't drop the whole charge or you had a bridge what happened would be easily explained. I have a Lee perfect powder measure that is a complete and total piece of garbage, I would tell you how I really feel about it but poor Art's granmaw would never be the same. I readily admit I am biased against the Lee measures so take my advise on this with a grain or two of salt.

Johnny, your procedure sounds just like what I do. Knock on wood it has kept me safe so far and I hope it does forever.
 
If only someone came up with an automatic powder measure/trickler/scale. I was thinking along the lines of the Lyman Autoscale, that uses a combination measure/trickler to get the balance beam to trip an infrared beam, but add an automated hopper to put the weighed powder charge into the powder funnel.
 
pure vulgar curiosity - taking one cartridge to completion or batch?

Pure vulgar curiosity, were you taking one cartridge to completion swinging the turret around - which I would expect to cause variations in powder packing in the measure - or were you batch processing doing each step to all cases in succession which would make it easier to eyeball powder levels as presumably in each block of 50 cases in a loading block?

Again pure vulgar curiosity
 
Mike, it sure sounds like a double-charge. I'm glad you reported it. Probably make us all a little more careful.

Hate to ask, but did you eyeball the charges in each shell when you were done throwing charges? That's the wonderful thing about .45acp. Easy to do that. Much harder on my .17 wildcat.

If you're confident you can detect powder weights by weighing, then do it. Otherwise use a bullet puller.

Then load 'em up again. This is good opportunity to re-evaluate, but no need to re-consider.
 
After all, you are a lucky man!

Mr Irwin,

I hope when my times comes, and it will, that I walk away with nothing more then just my confidence shaken. After all that's said, you are a lucky man!


Shoot Safe,

jkelly
 
PHEW!! Bad news Mike ... sympathies for the gun damage but sure as heck glad you were not damaged as well. Must be a real shaker after so long ... guess we have both been reloading similar time scale... making me think hard now, real hard - so as avoid any laziness or complacency.

Yep .. new gear could be a factor ... mind you .. I have managed with the Lee hopper ''auto-disk'' deal .. to actually operate it so as to throw extra powder. Not I suspect a true double but ... if the stroke is interrupted at a certain point on the way up .. I think there is one position where even a small reversal, before then completing the stroke ... it could happen. Not even sure it is easy to replicate . just know it happened . once at least.

Whatever ... seems like bad luck and good luck .. the gun is way more replaceable than parts of your anatomy! You may be about to do this but .. perhaps a test run with this newer gear .. trying to ''force'' errors .. and so see what might have led to it. Others mentioned set back ..... guess tho you are looking at all details.

A very hairy experience .. and as you said .. so lucky the revo was not trashed ... my approach of ''things could always have been worse'' ....... not that that helps too much.

We will all learn something here .. as well as you ... and hope the analysis will find a useful answer.
 
OK.

I just finished doing a full deconstruct of the gun, a Springfield Armory 1911-A1 Milspec. No damage.

I'm VERY glad that I like Hogue rubber grips. When the powder vented through the mag well, it didn't blow the magazine out as I've seen happen before, so the powder gas vented under the grip panels. My hands were very sooty, and my left hand (I was holding the gun in my left hand) still stings a little bit.

The magazine, a Chip McCormick, is toast. It won't operate the hold open, and the bottom is slightly bulged, aparently from being pounded by the one round that was still in the magazine. I imagine that the escaping powder gas really drove the round and floorplate down hard, which explains why the follower is bent.

When I finally got the magazine out, the last round had flipped around 180 deg, with the bullet pointing toward the back of the magazine.


The loading conditions were as follows:

Loaded on my Lyman T-Mag turret.

Lee dies (I've loaded thousands with the same dies)

Lee Pro Disk, using cavity .46, which, as confirmed on my RCBS 510 scale, was throwing 4.9 grains of WW 231, give or take about .1 grains.

(edited to add) 230-gr. lead hard cast bullet by Valiant.

I've loaded hundreds, if not thousands, of rounds using cavity .49, which throws 5.3 grains of 231, give or take .1 grains, and all of those were loaded on my Lee Turret, with the measure, and powder, going round and round a lot more violently than with the Lyman.

Was I visually checking each case as I charged it?

No. I must admit that I've gotten out of that habit over the years since I started using the Turret press.

I'm trying to remember my exact loading sequence, but I REALLY think, that somehow, I got out of synch and double charged a case. It's the only thing that makes sense.

There's simply no way for that much extra 231 to pack into the case and cause that much of an overpressure.

I was thinking that I might have undercharged a case, but I can find NO evidence that there was a bullet lodged in the barrel, and the shot before felt perfectly normal. I was shooting slowly enough for it to have registered.

I would suspect bullet setback as a possible culprit, except for one problem -- I know the crimp was good. My Brazilian contract 1917 S&W has to have a SOLID crimp, or the rounds won't seat in two chambers. I set the crimp on these rounds to accommodate that fact.

I keep coming back to the same conclusion...

I screwed up and double charged a case. I can't see any other way of this happening.

But, based on the problems I was having with my .357 Mag. loads last night, I'm still going to thoroughly investigate my Lee measure.
 
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Mike, the main thing is that you are ok. It is nice that the gun survived also. My standard load is a cast 200 gr swc and 5.0 of 231. Several months ago, I was on the range when I had a round that had way too much recoil and noise. Like you, I have been loading for years and that was my first problem. It is possible that the rest of your rounds are ok. However, since it was your first time with the press, there could be other problems. If it were me, I would put them in a baggie and pitch them.
 
I would put them in a baggie and pitch them.
Click to expand...

Why not pull them apart and reuse the components? A bullet puller is less than $20 and will save Mike nearly that much when he recovers the powder, brass, and primers of over 100 rounds. If the crimp isn't too tight, he can even reuse the bullets.

Chris
 
With all the talk here about throwing away the misloaded ammo, this is a good place to say to NEVER EVER SHOOT AMMO THAT YOU FIND OUT ON THE RANGE. Someone could have misloaded some ammo, and you never know how they will get rid of said ammo. If you have to, tear down the ammo, use the powder for fertilizer, deprime, measure/inspect the case, melt down the bullets, and throw away the primers.

Since we were talking about kB!'s, my one and only kB! was using my own handloaded 40S&W ammo using Western Nevada lead 180gr flatnose bullets, 5.6gr of Unique in PMC cases picked up from the range once-fired from a Glock. Damage was a broken extractor on a Sig P226 with an aftermarket FireDragon compensated barrel. To this day, I have not used the barrel ever again. Loaded using a single stage RCBS Rockchucker, charges individually weighed on a balance beam powder scale, flashlight checked for double charging, and batch bullet-seated and crimped. All other ammo from the same batch fired fine using the original Sig barrel off the same pistol after having the extractor replaced. Sometimes, its not the ammo. (And you never forget your kB!s.)
 
I would pull the bullets and start over. You might have had a jam up in the measure. Since you got a hot one, maybe there still is a light (very light) one still waiting to bite you. You might get a bullet stuck in the barrel.

I always charge all my cases before I seat the bullets, and then check each one by eye in good light. Since doing this I have over 25 years caught my only double charge before shooting it.
 
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