My deer kills with a .223

[orvpark]

(or other "inadequate caliber choice)

I know there is plenty of debate hashed out in several other threads. That isn't what I am looking for here. I would like to see what you have taken, and with what in an "inadequate" caliber.

I have taken two 100-125lb does with a 16" 1/9 twist barreled AR15 in 5.56 with 62gr Silver Bear Hollow points. Both were within 100yds one was a heart/lung broadside shot (ran 50yds and fell) the other was a spine shot (collapsed on the spot).

Take the debate to another thread. This is a "what works" with proper placement thread.

Post specifics:
Game size
gun specs
ammo specs
range
shot placement
tracking info

 

[bang_bang]

From what I've seen...Federal 55 grain HP .223 ammo fired out of a 16-inch AR will put a 150 pound doe in the dirt from around 150 yards or so. Definitely gained my respect after that day....

 

[~z]

In Oct I got two doe pronghorn with a .22-250. Not a '.223' but same bullet
Rem 700 (with some work done to it)
52gn SMKs at 3325fps.
235 and 268 yds
Neck shots
no tracking involved
~z

 

[Art Eatman]

As long as we're talking deer, IMO the key factors are shot placement first and then bullet specs. Range--within reason--is next.

The R&D on bullets, these last dozen or so years, has transformed the utility of centerfire .22s from "just a varmint gun" to far more of a small-to-medium game cartridge.

 

[MCgunner]

I've taken two with a .357 magnum revolver, longest shot was shy of 50 yards. I've taken one with a .357 magnum carbine at 80 yards and another at about 80 yards with a SKS in 7.62x39 (not really what I'd call "inadequate").

I've taken a couple dozen with a .257 Roberts. I can't for the life of me see why anyone would own a .223 for deer, might wanna take a deer with one like I did that .357 revolver, but as a primary deer rifle, hey, I was 11 years old when I shot that first deer with that .257. If the kid can't handle a .243, he shouldn't be deer hunting IMHO. Oh, there's the more potent .22-250 that's a popular kid's gun down here. .223, though? If an adult is scared of a .243's recoil, he needs psychological help. Even if you're 23 and don't like "fudd guns" and your world revolves around ARs, there are ARs available in better calibers than .223 now days.

JMHO, though. I ain't gotta blood trail your wounded critter. Good bullets may be available, but so are better calibers for a deer rifle. Why does it need to be a .223? I have a .308, that's a military caliber if that's your reasoning.

Oh, didn't notice the specifics thing. My loads were the same for rifle and revolver in my case. The .357 is the lightest round I've ever shot a deer with. Next lightest is a .30-30 which is not inadequate even out of my pistol.

Post specifics:

Game size 100 lb spike, 80 lb doe with revolver...80 lb doe with rifle (our deer are small

gun specs 6.5" blued Ruger Blackhawk, 20" Rossi M92 carbine, both iron sights

ammo specs 165 grain as cast gas checked bullet from a Lee double cavity mold loaded over 14.5 grains of Herc/Alliant 2400 WW small pistol primer. The carbine chronographs just over 1800 fps for about 1200 ft lbs. The revolver chronographs 1470 fps for almost 800 ft lbs.

range 30 and 50 yards for the revolver, 80 yards for the carbine.


shot placement on the shoulder for both revolver shots, just behind the shoulder, lung shot, with the carbine.

tracking info Revolver bang flops and the carbine hit one went about 15 or 20 yards before flopping.

 

[AKElroy]

This is a "what works" with proper placement thread.

I shot my first buck with a .22-250 when I was 11. I do not know what weight I was chambering. Heart/lung shot, ran 40 yrds or so. Neither I or that little buck were not aware at the time that it was not enough gun.

 

[MCgunner]

I shot my first buck with a .22-250 when I was 11. I do not know what weight I was chambering. Heart/lung shot, ran 40 yrds or so. Neither I or that little buck were not aware at the time that it was not enough gun.

It's a lot hotter than a .223, but is that .22-250 still your primary deer rifle? Do you shoot large hogs with it? I do know a guy that still shoots .22-250 for whitetail. He just likes it. It's an old M788 Remington, accurate, but the trigger sux on that thing.

I guess if it wasn't illegal, at least on deer, I could load my Remington bolt M512 with .22 CB short and just do head shots at 25 yards. It'd probably work. It is quite accurate, does a number on squirrel with that load. Lots of whitetail, they tell me, have been outlawed with a .22 short. I've seen full grown 500 lb hogs dropped DRT with a .22 short, in the slaughter house.

 

[kanook]

My deer kills with a .223

Remind me to stay away from your deer

50yds, Ruger Old Army, filled to rim with clean shot and a .457 ball. 125lb spike Fell downhill 30yds so kinda hard to say how far while under deer control and the rest gravity. Shot was place behind ribs going foward to take out boiler room.

 

[MCgunner]

50yds, Ruger Old Army, filled to rim with clean shot and a .457 ball. 125lb spike Fell downhill 30yds so kinda hard to say how far while under deer control and the rest gravity. Shot was place behind ribs going foward to take out boiler room.

I've owned an ROA for 30 years and love to shoot it and have considered hunting with it, same reason as I hunted with the .357, just because I can. I've yet to do it, though. I cast a 220 grain Lee. Might hit a little harder than a round ball, don't know. It's sure accurate, do know that.

If I was into ARs and wanted to take a deer with the .223, I'd not hesitate to 100 yards. I'm just sayin' there are better choices even for ARs for deer hunting. With modern bullets, it'll do the job, I'm sure, but its range will be limited and I wouldn't try to hunt something the size of mulies with it and make shoulder shots. Probably even kill a 300 lb mule deer buck, but wouldn't leave a lot of room for error. You'd better hit the sweet spot. We have a lot of hogs down here and with a .22, well, the head is the only logical target on a big one, but it'd take a 200 lber I'm sure as good as it takes deer, with a good bullet on the shoulder under 100 yards.

 

[AKElroy]

It's a lot hotter than a .223, but is that .22-250 still your primary deer rifle?

It never was. I was tagging along with my dad on his annual hunt as I had done since I was 7, and the property owner insisted I was old enough & loaned me his BLR. I had to give it back. Didn't want to. I have 5 primary deer rifles, but generally gravitate to a model 70 .270 or a scoped .30-30 model 94. For larger game, I have a left hand model 70 classic in 7mm RM, an open sight .30-30 94, and an HR single shot .243 I picked up for my son this year.

I am a lefty, so I gravitate to singles / levers as a cheaper alternative to dedicated lefty bolts. although I still find myself packing the RH .270 the majority of the time. It has tremendous sentimental value as the first gun my father owned. It probably has fewer than 500 rounds through it, 1965 manufacture & it is near perfect condition. It also plain SHOOTS.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I've taken a couple dozen with a .257 Roberts. I can't for the life of me see why anyone would own a .223 for deer,

can you NOT mention your 257 for even ONE thread?

As I learned over the weekend a lightweight AR15 is an absolute JOY to carry in the woods, especially where climbing and hiking is involved. The darn thing has a carry handle for crying out loud. After this weekend I'll never carry another levergun huntin, my EXCELLENT condition pre 64 win94 is a clunky, rattly unwieldy club compared to my 20" barreled a1 retro ar15. Plus if need be I can put three or four ACCURATE shots on target before someone with a 30-30 can even eject their spent casing.

Id also like to add that in my opinion someone shooting premium .223 bullets is better armed and shooting a more deadly cartridge (as far as deer are concerned) than someone shooting cheap Walmart 30-30 from a winchester or marlin. As Art Eatman points out .223 isn't the same cartridge it was 15 yrs ago.


this pic was take this morning

 

[Dambugg]

A lot of my child hood friends were rather impovershed. Their folks and family were all poachers and all of them used .22 magnums for deer. They also ran chain saws with cooking oil instead of bar oil to quarter the deer in the field. Kudos on the .223 deer thread.

I love reality.

 

[bang_bang]

.22 magnums

Can't leave out the classic .22lr either. A good 90% of poachers caught around my area have rimfire rifles in their possession. They are quiet (for the most part) and just as lethal when a good headshot is made within a set range.

 

[Austinite]

Regarding .223 vs. .30-30 comparisons - I realize that bullet technology has improved over the past 15 years, but let's not get carried away. The .223 is not in the same league as the .30-30 (at least not inside 150 yards or so).

A 150 grain 30-30 Remchester will leave a far larger wound channel and is much more effective on deer sized critters than ANY .223 load.

While not as accurate as a .223 bolt or most ARs, the typical Marlin or Winchester rifle is plenty accurate at typical deer ranges (inside 150 yards). Outside of 150 yards, one probably shouldn't use either cartridge.

 

[R.W.Dale]

A 150 grain 30-30 Remchester will leave a far larger wound channel and is much more effective on deer sized critters than ANY .223 load.

and I disagree a 30-30 simply does not churn up a deers vitals like these much higher velocity rounds firing QUALITY bullets do. Why do you think old timers like to use the "eat up to the hole" cliché when talking about the 30-30's performance on game. Because it doesn't tear up much meat that's why. Now 30-30 odiously still holds the edge in sheer penetration when the animals get bigger than whitetail. But for the most part Bambi just isn't that hard to shoot through

I stand by my assertion that someone shooting a .223 with a Barnes TSX or Partition is better armed than someone shooting remchester 30-30 wal-mart on sale ammo

 

[MCgunner]

can you NOT mention your 257 for even ONE thread?

I figured that'd piss you off.

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That enough for ya?

Nice photography, BTW, really.

Yeah, My M7 in .308 (OMG, did I mention I have a .257?) is so heavy, I need an AR or I'll collapse on my hunts from heat exhaustion. Ain't got any waterfalls or I'd attempt a pic of it. That pic would be hard to beat, though.

 

[R.W.Dale]

LOL hey you forgot 257Roberts +P MC

 

[MCgunner]

Well, that's a given for a handloader.....

 

[kentucky_smith]

I hated using an AR for hunting. The carry handle isn't really, the flashhider is useless and I don't need more than 4 or 5 rounds available. 1 really is enough. I got rid of my Grendel because a model 70 Winchester just felt much better in my hands for deer hunting. Just not in .257 Bob.

I prefer a good scope for that extra little bit of clarity at dawn and dusk.

 

[MCgunner]

I prefer a good scope for that extra little bit of clarity at dawn and dusk.

Yeah, I'd been taking my little .357 lever gun lately and noticed the other morning that while I could see the sight in partial dawn light, I was seeing two or 3 of 'em. My old antique eyes that really never were much count anyway were refusing to focus in dim light. So, reluctantly, I pulled out the .308 with the scope for use since the good bucks that are showing up are there at dim light, just going by the game camera. They're showing just after sundown or just before sun up.

I don't like pistol grips on rifles, just don't carry right, hard to get to the shoulder fast, and the safety on an AR is in a laughable location. Makes crossbolt safeties seem desirable. I guess it beats the AK, though. I shoot lefty, too.

But, this thread is about minimum caliber I've shot deer with so we're takin' it in the exact direction the poor OP didn't wanna go. LOL I've already posted on my minimum.

Sorry.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

My deer kills with a .223

I'm with kanook - I'm steering clear of the OP's pet deer on his place - sounds like Bambi's been reading too many Soldier of Fortune magazines!

If I could *only* remember MC's favorite caliber, I could recommend it to my buddy, but alas, he won't tell!

I've never shot a deer with a .223 rem, but I will say that I'd certainly do it (try it) with a good bullet, such as krochus describes. I will also say that my now-dead friend described how he dropped a little doe in its tracks with T/C Contender in .17 HMR, with a neck shot. Legal season but illegal caliber - he said it worked though.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, jeez, if a 17HMR from a pistol barrel can do it, my .22 mag rifle should flatten 'em DRT. Oh, wait, no rimfires. Whadda screwball law!

 

[matrem]

1st hand VERY limited experience with .223: (damage control only in Oh.)
16" bbl M4 w 60 gr Nosler Partitions kill deer rather well when hitting where you need to.
Zero for two on exiting rather large does at 125-150 yds.I sure wouldn't want to have to "blood" trail with that load.Entrance wounds didn't offer much blood either.
They work, but there are FAR better deer calibers, especially if you're hunting in "tight" or heavily brushed places.
Reason for edit: I used 60gr Partitions.

 

[Austinite]

I stand by my assertion that someone shooting a .223 with a Barnes TSX or Partition is better armed than someone shooting remchester 30-30 wal-mart on sale ammo

From someone who did wet pack testing of .223 with partitions and various loads of .30-30 (5 posts from the top)….

Both the Nosler and Win PP penetrated nearly 10" and began expanding immediately on impact. After 3" of penetration the 30-30 bullets had caught up and wound channel width was similar. Past 3 ' the 30-30 left a considerably bigger hole. All told the wound volume in newsprint of the .223 was from 60-75% of the 30-30. The first half wound channel volume was similar. The second half closed to maybe half as much.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3152034/6

The narrow wound channels of the .223 with partition…

http://www.brassfetcher.com/60 grain Nosler Partition bare block.html

…and 62 TSX bullet

http://www.brassfetcher.com/62 grain Barnes Triple-Shock.html

Here’s the only .30-30 gelatin photo I could find:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/160grHornady3030.html

That photo shows a Hornady Evolution bullet, but the expansion and penetration are pretty similar to 150 grain generic loads.

Testing shows that the .223 with the premium loads does not lack in penetration – the partition and TSX penetrate the same or more as a 150 grain .30-30 SP (particularly the .223 TSX). The .223 just doesn’t produce nearly the size of wound channel of the much larger and heavier bullet of the .30-30. I recognize that the higher velocity of the .223 is very helpful, but it doesn’t magically produce larger wound channels than a cartridge with over 40% more energy, especially given nearly identical levels of penetration.

Look, I think the .223 is a great round. I’d use it for deer in a pinch (our central Texas deer are tiny and shots are close), and I’d choose the 60 grain partition as it is a GREAT bullet. Perhaps we can agree on that part. Regardless, every bit of evidence points to the .30-30 having more ability to produce damage to deer-sized critters.

 

[rhoggman]

Austinite....

Thank you for posting the ballistics info on the Harnady 30-30 ammo.

I just purchased a new Marlin 336 in 30-30 w/ 4 boxes of 160 gr LeveRevolution ammo.

Supposedly this ammo is good out to 300 yards.