"My Dog's Middle-of-the-Night Nature Call & A Question"

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David

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This question is based on something that happened to me about a week ago.

About 3am, our family doggie had the "call of nature" and needed to be walked.

I was strolling with the dog around my normally quiet community when, of the the shadows, about 75 feet ahead of me, I saw a male dressed in dark clothing.

My dog, a larger sized Ridgeback, started to bark at this unknown person, while I put my hand in the pocket containing a J-frame loaded with .38's.

Please note: I have a permit to carry a CCW.

Thankfully, this unknown person walked away from me and towards a side street. He disappeared into the darkness.

I used my cellular phone to call the police to tell them about this suspicious person, and I walked safely home.

Please note: To clarify why this person was suspicious -- he was wearing all dark clothing with a long sleeve shirt even though this was a warm spring night and, he popped out from the shadows by a wooded area (i.e. not a place someone would normally be located at 3am in a residential area).

My question:

IF this suspicious person kept walking towards me, disregarding my (and my dog's) verbal commands to "stay away," at what point would it be okay to "draw down" on him?

Would I have to wait until he started to attacked me?

Would I have to wait until he presented a weapon?

etc., etc., etc.

Please note: I was on a public steet when all this happened, and NOT on my own private property.

Have you ever been in this type of situation, and what did you do?

:scrutiny: :what: :uhoh:

I welcome all your opinions...
 
Hmmm ......... 3.00 am........ call cops?? not sure that would be regarded as real ''threat'' ....... as for ''draw down'' ... I'd hope not ... but nevertheless .... be ''aware'' for sure.

Some people do keep strange hours .......
 
This guy would have to have been either a real bada$$ or a real dumba$$ to keep walking towards you (the unknown) and your ridgeback (obvious threat). In either case if he had walked towards me I would have crossed the street. If he crossed too in an obvious attempt to intercept me I'd probably say something like "Can I help you?" in a loud commanding voice. If he kept advancing I'd command him to stop and if he did not I'd simultaneously draw and offer Rover some nuts. Of course that could all happen quicker in real life than on my computer screen. That's why improvisation is a good thing! If it were me instead of you though I don't yet have my CHL so I probably would have just gone with my Brinkmann Legend LX shining in his face, Rover and nuts. Aside from dog walking, nothing good happens at 3am in the morning. Especially when overdressed people in all black are involved.

brad cook
 
Hypothetically speaking...

If I were on the street at 3 am walking my dog, and someone began to approach me - depending on the person's demeanor, attitude, etc., I would...

1. Illuminate him with my ridiculously bright flashlight.

2. Tell him to immediately stop his approach.

If he didn't stop within one second, I would produce the gun, and if I had time...say if he did not display a weapon, and was more than 10 yards away, I would tell him that if he came closer he would be shot. Then, of course - the "reasonable man" rule applies. You know he means you harm if he knows you have a gun and continues to advance.

If he were 20 yards away and approaching, and he produced a knife when I illuminated him and after I shouted a verbal command for him to get away -- if he did not immediately go away, he would be shot.

Of course, there are a million variables that influence these decisions. For instance, you might not have time to fool with the flashlight. The person may just start walking toward you -- then you may only have time to give a warning - and if goes unheeded, it's time to change said person's medical status immediately.

The bottom line is - if you tell a person to stop advancing, letting him know you feel threatened, especially if you know that he knows you are pointing a gun at him, and he continues to advance, I believe you are justified in shooting (considering other variables, of course)...

--tadyson
 
At one time it was thought if someone was out at 0300 they were up to no good. Having worked in a hospital, well many a time I have grocery shopped at 0300, and I wasn't alone. In fact I have quite a few neighbors working on-call , come in and walk the dog.

Ex wife would be called in, we had neighbors in same situation, kinda weird to have coffee at 0300 and sit watch stars with neighbors or go for a walk, but there 24 hrs in a day--just some have a different schedule than others.

I have walked with a US Marshall at that time of day, we needed the excercise. I figure we "might" be better prepared, than the average fellow out and about.

Around here lately the last fellow was carjacked and robbed at 0800. You never know...
 
Our class went through a lot of these scenarios, didn't yours? Or is it time for a refresher course! :p

It's really a force continuium that you would have to try to go through until they showed deadly force. Verbal to Non-lethal to deadly. So you can't shoot him because he was walking toward you. Could be deaf, could be confused and dazed from some sickness, all sorts of situations. So the loud verbal command is the best bet until you know you have to draw, unless you want to go to jail for shooting a kid playing (dumb) practical jokes.
 
3am is the middle of the night and Im not allowed to be up>?

Uh Oh, thats what time I get up in the morning for shift. Plus I wear dark clothing with long pants and long sleeves designed to blend in with my surroundings. In fact I probally look rather intimidating and militant walking around in the dark. Of course Im wearing my military uniform of BDU's and headed to guardmount but I think everyone should realize that some people in this world are stuck with the crappier work hours and may be up and about when you think we shouldn't. SInce this guy was walking away from you it was definitly a no harm no foul situation. If he had started walking towards me, I would probally of switched sides of the street. IF he had continued to approach, I would of then used the flashlight to id him. His actions from that point would decide what would happen. I love these hypothetical situations :)
 
Before any force is even threatened by you, you need to see something besides a man walking along. If you change directions, cross the street, or otherwise try to avoid letting this person get near you and he makes a corresponding change to continue to close on you, then you may be justified in using verbal commands, escalating to threat of force, and then force should the persons manner become menacing. You should be moving away throughout the process.

Having your dog bark at him and giving him orders are aggressive moves on your part. He has as much right to walk down the street and defend himself as you do.
 
a little ot, but is your ridgeback a rhodesian ridgeback? some time ago i was watching the westminster dog show and when they showed the rhodesian ridgeback, i remember thinking what beautiful dogs they are!

and large dogs too...a serious ridgeback growling at me would make me quite concerned, whether i'm armed or non.
 
Congrats on having a Ridgeback. We've got a 70 pound male, "mostly" Ridgeback. Aside for barking at the grass blowing in someone's yard 3 blocks away he's a great dog.

My wife's eyeballing a Ridgeback/Mastiff pup that's in rescue. Guess is he'll go 150 lbs when full grown. Her thought is that with the two dogs she won't need a CHL license in Texas.

I agree with what you did. Dark clothing at 3:00 a.m. would make me take notice. As the person didn't present a threat there wasn't any occasion to draw your firearm, but just seeing someone lurking in dark clothing at that time of night would be occasion for me to go from condition yellow to orange.

I'd suggest adding a Surefire or equivalent flashlight and a can of Foxlabs spray to your walking around kit. It gives you a few more options on the force continium.

Just my $0.02

Semper Fi
 
Thanks for all your opinions.

As we all should realize, EVERY situation is different and we must adjust our "actions" or "non-actions" as proper thing to do for that SPECIFIC situation.

Thankfully in this situation, just having larger sized barking dog and my hand in the same pocket as a J-frame was more than enough to safely get home!

:) :p :cool:

P.S. I just ordered a Stinger flashlight online for my dog's future 3am "nature calls.

:eek: :eek: :eek:
 
In your shoes, I would have that same comfortable grip on the gun. But as others have said it is not reasonable to even present a handgun to someone walking in your direction, regardless of how he's dressed or what time it is. Even if he raises his fists to threaten you, YOUR first reaction should be to move away.

The flashlight is definitely the right tool for the job. Besides, I wouldn't be too worried while walking ANY decent sized dog.
 
at 75 feet...

Did I miss something, or was there no references to finding some cover ? I know we've got a canine in tow, but realistically, does anyone really want to be a full size target if not necessary ?
Anything - light pole, neighbors car, ???

:confused:

Maybe there was none, but I didn't even see it mentioned...
 
Good point about the cover.

I was walking in the street with my dog (no sidewalks) and no streetlights nearby (that is why it was so dark).

Thanks...
 
Another beat the dead horse thing, but not everyone works 9-5 Monday-Friday. In fact, if you think about it, there are a whole lot of people up at 0300. When you called 911, someone was up to answer the phone. Those cops that got the call were up. If the cops were up, you can bet the people working in the bakery were up, etc.
In other words, it was OK for you to be up at 0300, so it is OK for someone else to be up to.
I can't see how you were threatened in anyway. So, nothing was required of you. I wouldn't have shined a light on the guy based on what you have told us. Would you have liked it if he shined one on you ?
Not trying to be a jerk here, I just don't see any reason for doing anything other than what you did, except I wouldn' t have called 911. Maybe he was frightened of you, and immediately tried to put distance between him and you and also called 911 as he retreated.
 
You would NOT call the police???

I guess this is what you would say is a "you had to be there" situation.

Consider this, please:

This is a quiet residential area with men, women and children of all ages.

It was about 3AM.

There was an unknown male dressed in all dark clothing with a long-sleeve shirt on a warm spring night.

This unknown person popped out of the shadows by a wooded area (there are no houses by this wooded area and no street lights nearby).

Yes, this unknown person could be "legit" -- but he could also be a possible robber, burglar, peeping tom, and worse...much worse.

I think it is very reasonable to call the police and let them do an area check to see if this unknown, and yes, SUSPICIOUS person, is still "wandering" our community.

In my humble opinion, I would not like to live in a community where someone would NOT call the police if they observed something as described above...

Would you?

Just my 2 cents...
 
Like you say, I guess you had to be there.

My point is that you were out in this same neighborhood at 0300 and had a legitiamate reason for being there. To him, you were an unknown male. Why is he so suspicious when you were there bacially doing the same type of thing. Why should you or he have to explain that to the police ? I could understand if he actually did something other than standing there and then walking away, but according to your story, he didn't. What are the chances of the police finding him ? How hard are they going to look ? After all, they are looking for a guy that didn't do anything other than walking around at 0300 just like you were. I have to admit, I have a problem with calling the police because someone MIGHT be doing something. Yes, he could have been a serial killer, he could have been Jack the Ripper (they never found him as far as I know), but it also could have been a guy out with his dog, over by the woods so his dog wasn't doing it's business where someone would step in it. It could be a guy that can't sleep. It could be a guy that works days. It could have been anybody.
I could also understand all this if he was on your property and all that.

But, you were there and I was not, so maybe I am missing something.
 
err on the side of caution

Always. And remember, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is survival. with an estimated 75 feet, you had options. More importantly, you actually did something. Sure, maybe the guy got hassled, and if not doing anything wrong, then, no harm - no foul. Police can't be everywhere, and if they don't know where suspicious circumstances are, it's rare that they'll be there for it. Kudos to you for not just blowing off your duties as a Citizen.

FWIW, the topic of cover came up at a recent dinner conversation, among like minded friends. Somebody introduced a 'what if', and it's a good thing that it really didn't happen because there would've been a lot of hypothetical lead flying :uhoh:

I chime in when the bravado subsides with "well, there probably won't be anyone down range of us left alive after you guys get done... but just in case, quick, without looking around, WHERE'S your cover? <pregnant pause>...<awkward silence> ...

A fellow NRA instructor jumped in with good suggestions...
 
"Sure, maybe the guy got hassled, and if not doing anything wrong, then, no harm - no foul."

Oh how I disagree with that statement. It has been my experience, that anytime you encounter the police, it is a negative experience. You may be walking your dog, but the police are looking for a "suspicious" person who might try to kill them. They are probably not going to pull up and say; good evening sir, we were just wondering if anything was wrong since you are out here so late tonight. I don't know about where you live, but if the police were stopping someone at 0300, odds are that they would at least have their hands on their guns, possibly have their guns drawn. You would be placed with hand on the hood and frisked. After your wallet was taken from your pocket, you would then be checked out by computer. If they were in a good mood, they might put you in the back of the car (the same back of the car where some wino threw up and a junkie blead all over the seat). If you gave them any lip at all about you having the right to walk on the public streets, odds are you would be handcuffed until they hear back on the check of your records. If everything is OK, I am sure they would appologize and explain that they had to do all this because of their own personal safety, and hope you understand.
That is best case senario, this isn't far fetched in the least, I would bet my next paycheck on it; I run calls with the police every day and have done so for the last 20 years (I work as a firefighter/paramedic). I am not pulling this out of the air, I have seen this senario played out a hundred times if I have seen it once.
Now, you may be an understanding fellow if you went through this when you were just trying to unwind; most people wouldn't. And if that guy happened to be one of your neighbors that you didn't recognize in the dark, I guarentee you he is going to be pissed. If it happened to be a bad guy and they couldn't hold him for anything, I would put good money on the fact that you are going to get a visit from him.
Now let's introduce some other senarios that arn't as rosy. Let's say I was walking my dog at night in this same senario. The police pull up and tell me to show them my hands. My dog has been genetically programmed for a thousand years to protect me. He doesn't understand that the police are my friends. He doesn't understand if these police officers feel threatened in the least, they will shoot him without a second thought. And, I know my dog, if a stranger aggressively approached me, he would go for them. Ordinarily this isn't a bad thing, but in this case, he will die. So, no harm no foul ?
How about if I am in town visiting my sister. She lives in the eastern time zone and I live in the pacific time zone. So, I roll into town at midnight (but my internal clock says it's 2100). I watch a little TV, but I got a headache from the stress of traveling and I don't feel all that great from breathing that stagnant air on the plane, so around 0300 local time or 0000 "my" time, I decide to take a little walk. Being the prepared guy that I am, I go to my checked luggage and get out my carry piece and put on the holster. I am walking around and see a guy out with his dog. I don't want to get the dog worked up, he will start barking and wake up the neighborhood, and since I don't have anywhere specific to go, I just turn around and walk the other way. He, being the "good citizen" that he is, calls the police on me. I go through the little hassle at the top of the post and the police discover that I have a gun, and a large pocket knife that opens real fast when it comes out of my pocket, and I am not from around here in fact my ID says I live in Nevada - I certainly don't belong in this neighborhood (all the while I am looking more and more suspiscious). Nevada ? Isn't that where all the gangsters are ? I saw that movie Casino. And all the crazies live out there, they let you gamble, and drink all night, and even have whorehouses out there. This guy is definitely a snake in the grass. Needless to say, since I live out of state I don't have a valid CCW. In the end, I explain that I am visiting my sister who lives right over there, they wake up their family to confirm this while all their neighbors look out their windows to see why the police are over there. Then I get charged with possession of a concealed weapon etc. In some juristictions, this is a felony. Yes, it was my choice to protect myself, and I may have even taken the time to research the consequences but thought the risk of protecting myself to be worth it, after all, the only way anyone is going to know is if I have to use it to defend myself right ? Wrong. I get a felony conviction and I kiss my job goodby. All because I was taking a walk and some guy called the police on me for doing absolutely nothing other than "looking suspicious" and being in a neighborhood where there are women and children.
No harm no foul ?

Now just imagine the original senario, only he doesn't call the police. Would anything have changed ? Not that we know of. The outcome wouldn't have been any better or worse for him, but he could have seriously screwed someone else over by doing what he did.
Anyone who makes a statement like "Sure, maybe the guy got hassled, and if not doing anything wrong, then, no harm - no foul." has obviously never BEEN hasled by the police. It has happened to me twice. Both times I did nothing. One of the times, I was shooting in a very safe place and somebody drove by and said we were shooting mail boxes. There wasn't a mailbox within five miles of where we were shooting. In fact, almost no one in the city of Las Vegas has a conventional single resident mail box. But, the police had to check it out. They are not just going to drive up to two guys shooting and talk about the weather. They got out with guns drawn, made us throw down our guns and we had our hands on the hood of that police car and were told to keep them there. The problem was that there was a hot engine running under that hood and this was in the Nevada desert = result, I got the crap burned out of my hands. Sure, we got it straighted out, no more was said, but it isn't a plesant experience. I can tell you without shame that if I knew who called the police on me, and caused me to get the palms of my hands burnt for doing nothing wrong, I would have gotten even. The harm and the foul would have been introduced to them.
 
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Jeez, deja vu'. That was me a couple three years ago. Plumber, 3AM, Dark bluejeans, dark longsleeved shirt (for protection from spiders & goo in the crawlspace), no shutoff valve in crawlspace, homeowner insists there's a shutoff in the edge of that wooded area adjacent to the cul de sac, police catch suspicious plumber coming out of woods (after having located shut off valve, going to truck for curb key), police are very nice and do not shoot poor plumber working overtime. Plumber is very glad he left pistol in truck this time, cause they did pat him down.:uhoh:
 
Whatever happened to "Hi, how's it going?"

Why do we assume the worse about someone else? (Enough to justify a "Nuisance" call to the police IMO on this occasion).

That person had just as much right to walk the streets and dress however he wanted as much as anyone else.

I can sympathise with you 444, as I'm male under 25 and of a "minority ethnic" background. All of which adds up to police magnet wherever I am, whatever I happen to be doing.

It was hugely unjustified David, and I'm disappointed you took the course of action you did.

Then again, take my opinion with two grains of salt as you see please.
 
re: no harm, no foul

I am not disputing that encounters with cops, can, and do take a negative turn, but yes, as a matter of fact I have been detained for suspected shoplifting once by a cop working security at a store I was also working for. Seems the new store manager was looking to pare down the list of employees & sent the cop to follow every employee in the store :scrutiny: That's basically what the cop told me... which I later came to believe..

He found me in the back of the warehouse... Hi I'm ... I need to see receipt for ... the store manager is checking every employee who buys anything...

My response - sure, but it's going to take some sorting - I keep all my receipts... it's about 6 months worth, here they are...

Now, that's the closest I've come to being detained 'walking down the street'... Nevertheless, since I don't make a habit of doing things that will draw the attention of police ( other than traffic violations ), nor do I conduct myself like a criminal - I'm not highly concerned about being 'hassled'. It all depends on the officer - if they're respectful, they'll get respectful.

Have been hassled by a town cop in DE - got "invited" to the station, interrogated, got disrespect, gave 110% of it back. for a complaint by a resident. Turns out the police chief heard our "elevated decibel talking". I swear, it was a precursor to NYPD blue or something - buddy & I in separate rooms, and the cop bouncing back & forth trying to get us to confess to making some sort of threat against the town resident... kinda tough, we were just driving through. "Your buddy just told me you pointed a gun at such and such" me: "total bull????, you gotta do better than that"... this went on for about 10 minutes, with lesser & lesser severe accusations of my alleged wrongdoing. Finally after about 20 minutes, we were "free to go"...

Still, I maintain that it's better to call the cops for a suspcicious circumstance rather than ignore it... But you also shouldn't be embellishing the situation either...
 
You don't have to look far to see people dressed in all black. These days it's popular to wear all black. Long sleevs or not, I see kids in my neighborhood on the hottest days of the year who don't take off their black trench coats. Is there any trails in the wooded area? Kids may be back there at any hour.
 
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