My first gun, I need advice on ammo

[SimplyComplicated]

Well, I took the plunge and got my first gun. A nice S&W 65-4 with a 4 inch barrel. Refinished with a matte finish, and the top strap and forcing cone are in phenomenal shape. It's cherry . FWIW, I was told that based on the serial number it was produced in '93. Only $380 bucks too! There might even be a few more of them on GunsAmerica .


Lovin the Pachamyr grips!



Now I need some advice on two fronts.

1: The old weak forcing cone/etching the top strap issue that 65/66's suffer from. It's a 357 mag, I want to shoot it as such. I plan on putting around 500 rounds through it a year.

Please weigh in, can I safely shoot 357 mag ammo out of this baby as long as I stay with 158 grain bullets? The ammo I've found in that range is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1100-1250 feet per second. 125 grain stuff hits 1500-1600. I know that light projectiles are a NO NO, but I've heard people say they've put thousands of 158 grain rounds through 66's. Am I okay in the 1100-1250 feet per second range?

I'm really planning on maybe a 50/50 blend of plain 'ol 38 special (+P is pricier) and 357 mag 158 grain in the aforementioned 1100-1250 feet per second range (probably closer to the 1250 number as it seems 357's run fast.

2: HD ammo
Okay, here is my situation. I'm a commuter student, and my parents are cool with the whole thing, but I do need to ensure their safety. I've got a space in the hallway where I could shoot and not risk hitting them in their bedroom, but there is only an outside wall after their wall, and then about 15 feet until our neighbor's house. I also want to ensure my neighbors' safety as well. This gun is a LAST resort option and is only for if determined attackers breech the second floor in spite of my mom's screaming. It's also kept in a digital safe so if I'm too groggy to get it out, I'm not going to get shot with my own gun .

Am I going to be at risk for over penetration with 158 grain 357 mag JHP rounds? Assuming I make it into the bad guy, am I in the clear?

Should I look into some 38 special +P+ rounds? The extreme shock rounds I liked in frangible ammo are 1500 feet per second minimum. Somehow I can't see my gun enjoying that treatment. I looked into glasers, but I hear those things aren't so hot. Maybe the under penetration issues wouldn't be as much of an, uh, issue with 357 mag? Again though, the glasers run HOT as far as how many feet per second they travel at. An 80 grain projectile seems risky in my gun. I wouldn't even feel comfortable testing them at the range.

So, lay it on me. Bullets for the range, and bullets for home defense.

 

[joe_security]

Mine is 65-2, same grips. You are going to love that revolver. I am going to stick my neck out and suggest what many here call the FBI/NYPD/Chicago load. Take your pick. Its the 38spl. +P 158gr. lead hollowpoint semi wadcutter. This for HD. There is a Federal Hydrashock 110 gr. (non +P) if you really want to go low penetration. I have put this into the guns of several recoil shy senior citizens. If you want to do the light fast magnum hollowpoints, consider a GP100. Speedloaders ? I have had excellent results with the Safariland Comp 2 for the K- frame.

 

[Eb1]

Glaser Safety Slugs for indoor use possibly. Silver or Blue. At hallways length I would not hesitate to use a .357 Glaser. The thing with a revolver is you could load the first, or first and second cylinders with Glasers. Then back them up with a 158 grain bullet of choice. You are not stuck with loading your revolver (or any gun) with just one type of ammo per session.
Also with a revolver. You do not have to worry about a Glaser not cycling. I tell you what. I will not personally let you test a Glaser on me, and I doubt anyone or anything would. Get it...

Range use what you like? Reload some wad cutters for range.

 

[SimplyComplicated]

So it sounds like maybe I should say the heck with worrying about "under penetration" and gone with some glasers as my primary rounds. At 1600 fps, they would probably be harsh on the gun, but then again, I only get one chance at home defense. I think I would go with silver as they are listed as "for winter clothing." I don't feel like spending 20 bucks for 6 rounds twice.

Follow that up with 38 special +P and I'll be pretty comfortable about it. I could have sworn I joked about loading up on 158 grain mag for the last bullets in the cylinder in case a bear broke into my house, but I can't see it in the original post.

As for the range, alas reloading is just not in the cards. I've been forbidden to do it for at least a year "until I get used to shooting." My parents seem to be concerned I will blow the house up

Since I can't reload, am I safe going with 158 grain factory loaded mag rounds (provided they aren't buffalo bore or something ).

Something else to shoot the light fast rounds will come later, or maybe I will just step up to 44 mag at that point. I'm okay with "mere 158 grain 357 rounds."

BTW: Thanks for all the help! I'm loving this site .

 

[wlewisiii]

+1 on FBI Load. The version from Buffalo Bore is very very good & is what I carry in my 64-5 & carried in my earlier Tuarus .357 snubby.

William

 

[robhof]

robhof

Hollow base wadcutters are surprisingly accurate at close ranges to 25yds and very inexpensive. I had a Dan Wesson 357 with assorted barrels, I shot hot 357's with the longer barrels, but they were brutal in the 2" so I tried some hollow base wadcutters and they were gentle and darned accurate. They'll kill rabbits, armadillos and racoons, and the flat nose distributes alot of energy on impact, real knockdown power.

 

[moxie]

Ditto on Glaser. Don't worry about shooting them in your gun. In your particular situation I'd load the first three chambers with Glaser Blue in .38 Special and the last three with Remington Golden Saber 125 BJHP, in .38 Special +P, or any similar round from the major ammo companies.

 

[roaddog28]

Hi and welcome,

You purchased one of the best revolvers that S&W ever made. I agree with some of the other members that the FBI 38+P HP would be a very good choice for HD. I have two boxes of Buffalo bore 158G LSWCHP +P and have two speedloaders with this round. I have a 66-4 4 inch as well as a model 10-14 4 inch. This round will be shoot POA in a S&W 38 special 4 inch barrel. The accuracy will be great in a 65/66 K frame magnum too. Your can research this round and you will find that in most cases it will rate at or near the top of the list. Other ammo makers make the same round so you have choices.
I am including a link from a well known writer and ex police officer on the FBI 38 special round.

Good luck with your new revolver,
roaddog28
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38 Special 158gr LSWCHP.htm

 

[Eb1]

I am not a professional, and anything I said is just my opinion, and not fact or really advise.

What moxie says makes sense to me as well. His opinion is a good one.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Nice revolver. Welcome to THR.

 

[SimplyComplicated]

Alright, glaser's and 38 spec's it is!

To the 65/66 owners, it seems like most of you guys are firing 38 special +P rounds in this gun. Is that just for HD, or for range duty as well?

I kinda like the punishing recoil of a 357 round... But I don't want to kill this gun. Are the bloggers right about the 158 grain 357 rounds being safe for this weapon, or are they full of it?

 

[roaddog28]

Hi again,

I don't have any experience with glaser's. But the FBI 38 special +P round is a proven man stopper. If I were you on the subject of shooting a lot of 357s in a 65/66 I would consider a heavy built revolver design to shoot a regular diet of 357s. The K frame magnum model 13,19,65 and 66 was a revolver designed to shoot 357s in a limited amount. And since that are not made anymore parts will get harder to get. I would say for the range a good 38 special target load would be the best. You can run a box of 357 158gr ammo once and a while but I don't on my 66. I also have a model 19 too and limit my 357s in the revolver.
Suggestions for a heavier built 357.
1. Ruger GP100
2. S&W L frame series 581,586,681,686.
3. S&W N frame series 27 or 28.
4. Ruger Security Six series
All of the above were design to shoot 357s on a regular basis. The Security Six is lighter than the rest and is closest to the 65 in handling.

Again, good luck
roaddog28

 

[Paladin7]

First off, congratulations, you chose very well.

Starting off with a double action k-frame revolver will make you a much better shot. You may want to invest in a good class like Masaad Ayoob's LFI-I where you will learn the Judicious Use of Deadly Force. Not just the mechanics of shooting, but the legal aspects as well. Lot's of good stuff to learn.

As to the K-Frame for HD, seriously consider the standard defense load in 38 special - the 158 gr LSWCHP +P. It is a proven man stopper and will not be a problem in the HD scenario that you described.

You really don't want to light up a 125/158 gr 357 mag defensive load in a confined space in the dark. You will lose both your hearing and eyesight in the dark.

As to practice you can shoot both 38's and 357's, and as you correctly stated you don't want a heavy diet of 125 gr 357s. Your revolver should outlast you.

Be Safe...

 

[marcus40]

Recently purchased a S & W Mod 65

I purchased this gun used, with the original box of bullets, supposedly only shot just a few times, the gun is Stainless Steel 4" BBl witrh Rose wood grips and came with the original box and paperwork. I purchased it to use for self defense since I have a concealed carry license. I plan on mostly shooting 38cal, but I do plan on using .357Mag Corbon 110gr power ball ammo for self defense. If I just shoot the Corbon a couple of times and use the rest only for self defense, will this harm the gun? I have a Ruger Blackhawk 357 mag with a 6-1/2" Bbl and I reload but would never use reloads for self defense, for liability reasons.
I appreciate any advice on the S & W Model 65 .357 mag use of the 357mag Corbon Power Ball 110gr. ammo, for limited use only.
marcus40

 

[wcwhitey]

First about the forcing cone. I would not worry about the occasional use of 125 or 110 grain .357's in a -4 gun. Secondly, the forcing cone issues were with S&W Model 19's in blue carbon steel not stainless (Model 66's). Using full house .357's once in a while will not prematurely wear your nice revolver. The K frame .357's were never really made for all or nothing shooting with .357 Magnum rounds. They were made to feel better in the holster than an N frame while being able to handle the magnum rounds. Nothing wrong with that. They are IMHO the best revolvers ever made, just know the limitations.

That said 110 or 125 grain .357's are really not the round to be used for self defense inside of your home. Actually any weight .357's will deafen and blind you after the first shot in a dark room or hallway. .38 +p's are milder and decent man stoppers. 38 +p's are not as expensive as .357's. If you are not a reloader better to practice with what you plan to use for self defense. A good .38 158 Semi Wadcutter Hollow Point in +P will give you a nice home defense handgun, low muzzle blast, excellent accuracy and manageable recoil without breaking the bank. With this formula your Model 65 will more than likely out live us all.

The forcing cone issue is not a myth. It has however been exaggerated from Model 19 service revolvers (including heavy use private weapons) to include all K frames. There are more knowledgeable folks here that can give you specific information regarding exactly when S&W made changes to the forcing cone to remedy the problem and what models had specific problems.

JMHO Bill

 

[FCDeputy1911]

Congratulations on your first gun glad to see another revolver has found its home. To be honest you cant go wrong with the old FBI Load (158 gr LSWCHP +P).

 

[TAG2501]

Congratulations - nice revolver.

Look for basic 38spec loads for practice. You can shoot pleasantly all day with decent (medium) reloads or factory 38sepc ball ammo. For self defense, don't feel pressed to shoot 357mag - factory 38 special will do nicely.

 

[BCRider]

I guess it depends on each person but I'd find that a steady diet of full house .357Mags from a K frame would get a bit much on the hand and wrist. But +P or slightly lighter .357's are a lot more kindly to the hand and wrist yet still pack enough wallop to make the shooter grin at the range.

Plus it's probably not a bad idea to be a little kind to the gun given that they aren't making them anymore. Even if the forcing cone doesn't split, and the vast majority of reports are from blued guns, a steady diet of Magnums will soon make the cylinder shoot loose and then you're in for some pricey repair work. Another good reason to avoid a truly steady and glutinous diet of Magnums.

But really 500 rounds of Magnum a year isn't a lot at all. With 52 weeks a year you're only talking between 9 and 10 rounds a week. Now spread out between the 50 to 100 rounds per week of .38Spl you should be shooting along with the Magnum then that's not so bad....

Magnum rounds don't seem all that cheap wherever you can get them. You may want to get into reloading for both .38Spl and .357 just to cut down costs compared to buying boxes of +P and Magnum.

And if you really do want to go with a steady and voracious diet of Magnums then consider either a model 27 or 29 N frame or a 586 or 686 L frame in .357 Mag. Any of those 4 will happily eat a steady diet of full power magnums and not even burp in complaint.

Or.... jump up and get a .44Mag for wrist punishing duty and use the 65 with primarily regular .38 or +P

 

[marcus40]

Thanks for the response

I am trying to upload the Picture of the gun. I do reload, mainly 38cal, and some rifle reloads. Let me see if the picture attaches.
Marcus40

 

[Madcap_Magician]

You have to understand that any handgun ammunition powerful enough to stop a human attacker is powerful enough to go through the internal walls of your house.

The most tested .357 magnum load is probably the 125-gr. semi-jacketed hollow point going between 1350-1450 fps. A lot of companies make a load like this. In .357 magnum, it is a good idea to load self-defense ammunition rather than hunting loads. Jacketed soft-point and hardcast lead solids produce a great deal more penetration in .357 magnums than do the self-defense loads.

In .38 Special, the FBI load of a 158-gr. lead semi-wadcutter hollow point to +P velocities works well, as do most of the high-tech hollow-point designs (Speer Gold Dot, Federal Hydra-Shok, Remington Golden Saber, Winchester Ranger, Cor-Bon DPX, etc.), although the latter tend not to have as much field evidence supporting their use.

 

[marcus40]

Thanks again for all the info. I think I jumped in the middle of someone else's post and probably should have started one of my own. I have hunted with my older Brother since I was 9 and we continue to hunt. I started reloading back in the 70's. My current concealed carry gun is a Glock model 36 in 45ACP, I carry it in a Wilderness holder and I reload the 45acp as well as my recent purchase of the S&W Model 65. I have had three Ruger single action Blackhawk pistols, my last one I plan on keeping the rest of my life. Anyway, thanks for all the help, it may have been meant for the guy that started this post.
Take Care,
Marcus40

 

[147 Grain]

Stick with 38 Special +P loads in your 357 for lower flash and quicker follow-up shots since most SD events will be at night.

Buffalo Bore: Also see other +P loads with 158-gr. LSWCHP (FBI / Chicago Load)
158-gr. +P LSWCHP (20A) @ 1,162 fps in 4” barrel. http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108

Double Tap:
110-gr. +P Barnes Tac-XP Copper Jacketed HP @ 1,250 fps in 4” barrel.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_72&products_id=368

Corbon – Dakota Ammo:
110-gr. +P DPX [Barnes XPB] Copper HP (DPX38110-20)

 

[147 Grain]

P.S. If you still prefer 357 Mag indoors, here's a few loads to consider:

Federal:
140-gr. Barnes Expander (P357XB1)

Corbon – Dakota Ammo:
125-gr. DPX [Barnes XPB] Copper HP (DPX357125-20)

Naturally, the higher flash 140-gr. Barnes Tactical bullet performs much better performer in 357 Mag than the 110-gr. in 38 Special, which tests OK too.

 

[WYO]

I also am a fan of the Buffalo Bore .38 Special +P 158-gr. LSWCHP (20A). I got a chronograph reading of 1064 fps mv out of my 3" Ruger SP101, which was the same velocity I got out of the same gun with some Fiocchi 158 gr. JHP .357 magnum ammo.

 

[rhoggman]

There is a possibility that you are over thinking your self defense scenario a bit.

I would always go with some good stout loads that you have tested at the range or outdoors, but none of that is really going to prepare you for life and death in a meaningful way.

Just a thought on ammo. Don't use frangible or safety ammo because you are worried about over penetration. Cops miss their intended targets over 80% of the time when they have to use deadly force with a firearm. Choose ammo based on knock down power.... not the supposed death of an innocent bystander who may not even be standing by.

I would use frangible ammo in my home for defense if all the walls were solid steel. I can't really think of another reason. At the opposite end of that spectrum it likely would not be wise to load your shotgun full of incendiary rounds, or choose a weapon like a 50 BMG w/ armor piercing rounds either.

Do your parents sleep standing up? Are they vampires who do the swinging upside down sleeping trick? Do you plan on shooting your robber in the legs? If all the answers are no it is highly unlikely you are going to kill your sleeping parents. Just inform them from now on while you are at home in the event of a robbery to stay in bed because you may be shooting at robbers who are walking down the hallway. Not a good idea to be fumbling around in the 4.5ft - 6.5ft range while you are spraying 6 rounds out of your boomstick.

Not that it is not possible; however, I seriously doubt you are going to shoot through your house, into your neighbor's house, and mortally wound an occupant. Then again maybe you will who knows? I guess it is possible you could have really nosy neighbors who are watching you through their window while you are getting robbed and the bullet could pass through the robber, both windows and the neighbor. Hopefully your retard neighbor would be dailing 911 or hiding behind a wall once you brandished a firearm and pointed it in his/ her general direction albeit mainly at the bad guy.

Maybe just invite your neighbor over for tea or something and explain to him the situation to the effect of, "if you think I am being robbed, please hide and call 911. Do not stand near a place where you think it is likely a bullet may strike you in the event a gun fight breaks out in my domicile." Who knows, maybe you'll make a life long friend.