.38 Special
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Wes, I'll get to the rest of your post as soon as I figure out what a "reverse-strawman" might be, and how I've been creating one.
My frustration with the NRA and other RKBA activist organizations
- Thread starter belus
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ProficientRifleman
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IA farmboy,
Well said, sir! Bravo!
Well said, sir! Bravo!
Wes Janson
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Is it really? I think perhaps your statement is incorrect; I can only hope that there exists no person on here whose only life issue is guns. As wonderful as the "ability to bring kinetic force to bear" indeed is, I doubt there is anyone here who prefers guns for their own sake over and above the sake of their family, friends, and their own life.
Put into terms of a hypothetical scenario, if you had to choose between losing your weapons or the enslavement and massacre of innocents, I don't believe anyone can truly and honestly chose the former. And before everyone runs out screaming "I'd just shoot them because I've got guns!! There's no such choice!" I'd like to remind you that the very point of the scenario is to seek out the strongest-held value, not to look for loopholes. Which do you really value most? Every election year we commit a lesser form of decision, by rating our candidates based on their priorities...and it's no win if we elect a candidate who will leave us our weapons while taking everything else away.
Weapons are a means to the end of securing our well-being; if we have our guns but not our well-being, then we've failed ourselves, and that cannot possibly be counted as a victory*.
*Thermopylae notwithstanding-this refers to society as a whole, not an individual or group of individuals.
ProficientRifleman
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Well said, Wes.
belus
Member
Thank you for stating some of my concerns more calmly than I could, Wes.
I worried that the NRA makes it easier to portray gun owners too simply, as well. One of the best books I ever bought was Armed America: Portraits of Gun Owners in Their Homes. I wish it had been NRA sponsored.
Wes Janson said:
I worried that the NRA makes it easier to portray gun owners too simply, as well. One of the best books I ever bought was Armed America: Portraits of Gun Owners in Their Homes. I wish it had been NRA sponsored.
jrfoxx
Member
I agree that I dont think guns are anyone's ONLY issue. Thats why I didnt say that.
I said for some,it is the NUMBER 1 (read: most important) issue. Being the #1,doesnt mean its the ONLY issue. For others, immigration might be the #1 issue. that doesnt mean that nothing but immigration is important to them, just that they consider all the other less important by comparasin. Also, some may have several issue they consider to all be the top issues for them, and they are all equally important. Stil doesnt mean there arent others they care about, they also just arent at the top of the list.
belus said:
I am waht I think of as a "seasoned liberal" - I find that when I take internet political quizzes, I end up middle (myabe a little to the left), with a bit of a libertarian streak.
belus said:
I agree very strongly - I am a member of the NRA for their safety programs. But they don't speak for me. They have blithely funded the Christian theocrats now in power. Suspend the 4th Amendment? No problem, as long as you honor the 2nd? Wiretap any Americans phone calls any time wihtout a search warrant - heck, who cares, here's another wheelbarrow fill of cash. Force public libraries to turn over the list of books a citizen checked checked out? Hell let's make a trailer full of cash. Want to suspend the rights of darn near anyone - call'em an "enemy combatant" - here more cash buddy.
The reality is that the NRA has traded every other amendment in the Bill of Rights for the 2nd - and we as gun owners are not well served by that. The founding fathers got it right - all of the amendment work together.
By the way - this is not a liberal conservative split. The conservative movement in the the US has a long and honorable tradition - mostly founded on states's rights and fiscal prudence. When this group decides that the fedreral government needs to intervene to prevent the states from regulating marriage - that's Christian fascism folks, nothing to do with conservatism. When this group decides that the federal government needs to intervene to prevent states from regulating the medical use of marijuana, that's not conservatism - that's Christian fascism. Don't even get me started on fiscal prudence and the Christian fascists...
Why does all this make a difference? Because when all of the other rights are gone, the 2nd will be hollow. When the federal governement issues a letter of national security to your gunshop to find every purchase you've made in the last 10 years, and checks out every book you've ever read, and taps your phone lines without a search warrant, what good's the second? When they decide that you defense attorney might embarass them, and label you an "enemey combatant" what good is the 2nd?
A wise man once said that if America was ever destroyed, it would be from within. To my mind that's starting to happen - Osama bin Laden didn't have the power to suspend the 4th Amendment - he's just another nut like a lot of nuts out there. But the Christian fascists used bin Ladend to strip away all of our other rights - and the NRA funded them every step of the way!
Mike
Boomer
Member
There is nothing you could say that will change the OP's mind. However, he can chalk up a lot your time and effort. That's time and effort not spent electing pro-gun politicians. I'd say he's getting a pretty good return on his investment.
That frustration seems to be grossly misplaced.
You complain about a gun education and rights organization only being focused on guns and gun rights. I'd like to hear the outcry when the Salk Institute dilutes their primary efforts with some support of RKBA, but then why should they distract their important work for an area they aren't expert in? Why should the NRA, GOA, etc.?
You accuse gun owners of being monomaniacal and focused only on a single issue, but you apparently don't know very many because the majority of them are much like you, concerned with other important governmental and societal issues. Instead of seeing them as being part of the community you set yourself apart.
You say you're a Democrat, but you don't support every plank in the Party. I'm a member of the NRA, but I don't support every position of theirs. Just enough to see common cause for restoring and protecting our rights. Kinda like you do with the Democratic Party.
You say the NRA only supports Republican candidates, alienating you and many other non-Republicans. Odd since there have been threads here with some decrying the support the NRA gave to Democratic candidates in the last elections. You only have to look at the recommendations in the "American Rifleman" during those elections to find the support for Democrats that supported RKBA.
You say you support education. I'd encourage you to continue yours and set aside these assumptions and get some facts.
You complain about a gun education and rights organization only being focused on guns and gun rights. I'd like to hear the outcry when the Salk Institute dilutes their primary efforts with some support of RKBA, but then why should they distract their important work for an area they aren't expert in? Why should the NRA, GOA, etc.?
You accuse gun owners of being monomaniacal and focused only on a single issue, but you apparently don't know very many because the majority of them are much like you, concerned with other important governmental and societal issues. Instead of seeing them as being part of the community you set yourself apart.
You say you're a Democrat, but you don't support every plank in the Party. I'm a member of the NRA, but I don't support every position of theirs. Just enough to see common cause for restoring and protecting our rights. Kinda like you do with the Democratic Party.
You say the NRA only supports Republican candidates, alienating you and many other non-Republicans. Odd since there have been threads here with some decrying the support the NRA gave to Democratic candidates in the last elections. You only have to look at the recommendations in the "American Rifleman" during those elections to find the support for Democrats that supported RKBA.
You say you support education. I'd encourage you to continue yours and set aside these assumptions and get some facts.
belus
Member
I'm disappointed that gun-rights have been allowed to become a partisan issue. This may not be a direct failing of the NRA-ILA, but I think it makes the gun-community weaker. We become dependent upon one party to look after our concerns, and popular opinion will never allow one side to hold power for long (thank god).
I feel like our gun-rights are eggs and all of them are in the Republican basket. This is a failing of the NRA-ILA. The alienation of more liberal gun owners (like myself) by supporting candidates they'll hate more than they love their guns is not a smart policy. I can't find reasons to join such an organization.
I feel like our gun-rights are eggs and all of them are in the Republican basket. This is a failing of the NRA-ILA. The alienation of more liberal gun owners (like myself) by supporting candidates they'll hate more than they love their guns is not a smart policy. I can't find reasons to join such an organization.
Well the anti-gun factions have been spending years and millions trying to turn the NRA into a villain. So I guess I'm not surprised that some of their work has been successful. Criticizing the NRA for doing exactly what we members want them to do, is in the grand scheme of things, pretty weak.
The NRA may not align with all of my political leanings, but fortunately when it comes to the Second Amendment, we are in perfect alignment.
The NRA may not align with all of my political leanings, but fortunately when it comes to the Second Amendment, we are in perfect alignment.
Eleven Mike
Member
rainbowbob said:
No, the complaint is that NRA is a one-issue organization. Because of that, they endorse Democrats and Republicans, based on their record on guns. Whether the current administration has eroded any non-RKBA rights is a matter of heated debate. My guess is that most NRA members are not convinced there is any such erosion. Perhaps you should become more involved in the NRA, to alert the membership to your concerns.
belus,
So you feel you don't fit in with other gun rights supporters. I also feel that way sometimes. I once felt out of place in a gun club, because I am one of those straight-laced religious folks, and they held their meetings at a bar.
Apply your attitude to the NRA, to the ACLU. How do you justify your membership in the ACLU, when they do not perfectly represent you, either, and treat your gun rights with contempt?
What makes you think the NRA doesn't support anti-crime measures? You should google Project Exile.
Are you saying that the NRA is hostile to these things?
camslam
Member
I hate to break it to you, but it is not the NRA's fault that LIBERAL Democrats are the ones trying to get rid of the 2nd amendment. When the leaders of your party are Kennedy, Clinton, Obama, Kerry, Feinstein, Durbin, Boxer, Lautenberg, Schumer, Pelosi, Daley, etc.... It reads like a who's who of anti-gunners. Please spare the rest of us the joke of blaming the NRA. You have a handful of Republicans that are anti-gun and they rarely vote that way. But you have loads, and loads, and loads, and loads of LIBERAL Democrats all lined up to support restrictions on the 2nd amendment, with the real goal of getting rid of guns in general.
The Republicans are crappy as well, they are just the lesser of the evils, and when it comes to guns, it is no comparison. Blame you political leaders, not the NRA. Thank goodness we have the NRA to keep some of these *$@(*@ in check!
:banghead:belus said:
Actually, while I agree with the general tenor of your comments - the NRA is quite willing to give gobs of money to people shredding every other right in the Bill of Rights - they did (I believe) contribute to some of the pro-gun Democrats where were the key to Howard Dean's strategy for regaining control of Congress for the Dems. Dean's secret strategy was to elect centrist Democrats, and many of them were pro-gun. The NRA supported (some of) them. I don't know the actual stats on that, but I am sure that someone on THR does.
Mike
Eleven Mike
Member
As I said above, the NRA endorses Dems and Repubs. Please explain how the NRA caused guns to become "a partisan issue." Did they somehow convince Democrat politicians to vote against gun rights?
Eleven Mike
Member
Christian fascists.
That's right folks. There's a bunch of Christian fascists out there, and they want to take away all your rights!
That's right folks. There's a bunch of Christian fascists out there, and they want to take away all your rights!
If you want to join an organization for GUN RIGHTS then you join such an organization that specializes in those rights. To me it does not sound as if that is truly what you are seeking. If you want to join an organization that is a political club that covers the gamut of issues, then join one. That is not the NRA. So why moan and groan about them, if in fact you are looking for what amounts to a political party or political club that agrees with your politicl views; you most definitely are not looking solely for a gun rights orgainzation by what you described regardless of political affiliation.
All the best,
GB
All the best,
GB
ProficientRifleman
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Eleven Mike,
Have you been watching V for Vendetta again?
Have you been watching V for Vendetta again?
belus
Member
I'm looking for a pro-2A organization that has a healthy respect for the rest of the Bill of Rights. One that might be willing to take a few short term hits in order to produce an overall better climate.Glenn Bartley said:
I'm not looking to be perfectly represented. No organization with any political weight qualifies. But I would like to be able to donate and belong to a pro-2A organization without undermining my other values. The NRA (through the NRA-ILA) seems all too willing to do that. And I speculate that this is the reason why they only have 5% of gun owners among their ranks.
belus
Member
That's a great suggestion, and one that should have occurred to me earlier.SuperNaut said:
In pretty much everything I've read I've been supportive of the Cato Institute (at least never strongly opposed). Thanks for reminding me.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
belus: Some generalization seems apropos. First off, conservatives seem to be far more in favor of crime control over gun/people control than are liberals. Next, in the U.S., most liberals are in the Democratic party, so the issue has indeed become partisan. That's easy enough to observe by watching who in Congress introduces ever more onerous gun control bills. It's mostly the Pelosis, Schumers and the like.
While it has been pointed out that the NRA quite rationally has the Second Amendment as its primary focus, note that the NRA joined with the ACLU in protesting parts of the McCain/Feingold " Campaign Finance Reform" bill's apparent infringement of the First Amendment. What they fought was the part which outlawed YOUR right to make political statements against a candidate in the last thirty days before the November elections, even if factual. Organized media can, but not YOU. Unfortunately, SCOTUS held against us. So, basically, come October, you can't take out an ad with a photo of Candidate X receiving a payoff from a known narcotrafficante or an Al Qaida bigwig.
You will find the occasional editorial in the Rifleman decrying the abuse of what some have come to call the "One-fourth Amendment".
I've been in this gun argument since the runup to the GCA of 1968. Were it not for the NRA, you wouldn't have that CHL. That's mostly because without their efforts, there would be no private ownership of handguns in the U.S. That was the goal of present US Senator Dodd's father, who was also an anti-gun Senator Dodd. Anti-gun runs in that family. And all other firearms would likely be registered.
IOW, there is a reason the NRA had to shift from guns-in-general, hunting/marksmanship-oriented to a Second Amendment stance. Who else? The other RKBA outfits weren't. They didn't exist, or not beyond some, "Maybe we can..." very small-time, small-member dreams.
While it has been pointed out that the NRA quite rationally has the Second Amendment as its primary focus, note that the NRA joined with the ACLU in protesting parts of the McCain/Feingold " Campaign Finance Reform" bill's apparent infringement of the First Amendment. What they fought was the part which outlawed YOUR right to make political statements against a candidate in the last thirty days before the November elections, even if factual. Organized media can, but not YOU. Unfortunately, SCOTUS held against us. So, basically, come October, you can't take out an ad with a photo of Candidate X receiving a payoff from a known narcotrafficante or an Al Qaida bigwig.
You will find the occasional editorial in the Rifleman decrying the abuse of what some have come to call the "One-fourth Amendment".
I've been in this gun argument since the runup to the GCA of 1968. Were it not for the NRA, you wouldn't have that CHL. That's mostly because without their efforts, there would be no private ownership of handguns in the U.S. That was the goal of present US Senator Dodd's father, who was also an anti-gun Senator Dodd. Anti-gun runs in that family. And all other firearms would likely be registered.
IOW, there is a reason the NRA had to shift from guns-in-general, hunting/marksmanship-oriented to a Second Amendment stance. Who else? The other RKBA outfits weren't. They didn't exist, or not beyond some, "Maybe we can..." very small-time, small-member dreams.
[1] The most significant thing we share on this board is that we like guns and support the Second Amendment. After that I'm sure we all go our own ways.
[2] Similarly, the NRA is about gun rights. It's not about other issues. They will support politicians who support the RKBA, be they Republican, Democrat or whatever.
[3] The NRA is a pain sometimes, and I spend a good part of the time I spend on my mail each week tossing stuff from them asking for more money. BTW, I am a Patron Member.
[3] I am willing to put up with the junk mail and endless requests for money because the NRA is the most effective gun rights organization we have. They are an effective gun rights organization in part because they lobby vigorously and have a good deal of political acumen.
[4] They are also, and primarily, effective because they have a lot of members. Politics is largely a numbers game. A large membership translates for politicians into political (i. e., voting) and economic clout.
[5] The larger the NRA's membership is, the more influence it will have.
[6] I don't necessarily agree with every stance the NRA takes, but I do want to preserve our RKBA. Merely being an NRA member and appearing in the NRA member count helps, even if you don't want to do anything else. I therefore always urge shooters to join the NRA.
[2] Similarly, the NRA is about gun rights. It's not about other issues. They will support politicians who support the RKBA, be they Republican, Democrat or whatever.
[3] The NRA is a pain sometimes, and I spend a good part of the time I spend on my mail each week tossing stuff from them asking for more money. BTW, I am a Patron Member.
[3] I am willing to put up with the junk mail and endless requests for money because the NRA is the most effective gun rights organization we have. They are an effective gun rights organization in part because they lobby vigorously and have a good deal of political acumen.
[4] They are also, and primarily, effective because they have a lot of members. Politics is largely a numbers game. A large membership translates for politicians into political (i. e., voting) and economic clout.
[5] The larger the NRA's membership is, the more influence it will have.
[6] I don't necessarily agree with every stance the NRA takes, but I do want to preserve our RKBA. Merely being an NRA member and appearing in the NRA member count helps, even if you don't want to do anything else. I therefore always urge shooters to join the NRA.
ilcylic
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Belus, IA_Farmboy: http://www.jpfo.org
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