My Guns and School

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at the request of another poster ive decided to share my experiance with guns, and my high school. this happened before joing the high road. let me give a little backround info. i was 17 during the course of these events, im now 18. my friend has been 18 throughout the entire length of the stroy though is soon to turn 19. we'll call him bob in this story. bob was kicked out of his house back in august. me, being pretty much is only friend other than his girlfreind, took him in and he has been living with me since. we're good freinds and have bonded alot since he's lived here. we both are avid beleivers in the constitution and firearms ownership. odviously since he is somewhat homeless however, he really doesnt have any money to indulge in owning a gun himself. around christmas time i was feeling pretty bad for him. no family of his own to spend the holidays with, i decided i would be charitable and give him money to buy a gun. i couldnt go and get it myself because, like i said, i was only 17. so shortly after christmas, me and him went to dunhams. we had been there a few times before and he seemed interested in the g3 or CETME models. however the last visit he told me he was fond of the wasr-10, like me. this is suggnificant becasue i also liked the gun alot. anyways i gave him the money, he passed the backround check, and we left the store with a brand new gun. now before you guys go saying i wanted the gun for me, thats not true. i thought maybe me and him could go shoot together, and bond some more as friends yes, but never did i say or think that it was MY gun. a couple months go by and we figure "what goods a gun without ammo?" so we order 1000 rounds from cabella(sp) online, at $75 (not bad huh?) wolf 122gr jhp. about a month afterwords, still not shot off a single round because its difficult to find a range that will allow A:bi-metal jackets which my wolf ammo had or B: a range where you can shoot and ak replica. anyways life continued happily. ownership was fairly known at school, and kind of expected (im very vocal about the 2nd amendment) students questioned it but they were pretty ignorant and so we didnt pay anymind to them. around the time the hockey team was going to the finals, they started shaving their heads. we and bob didnt exactly like it since we're true skinheads (as in we shave our heads completly bald, not in the neo-nazi sense) i was "sick" one day because i wanted to sleep in. apparently during the day bob said that he didnt appriciate the hockey team shaving their heads. no mention of a gun or even violence was uttered. someone questioend his girlfriend, someone who is disapproving of firearms, as to whether or not bob owned a gun. she said yes and knew how to use it. since i wasnt there i cannot say for certain if that was a threat or not, but its quite a vauge threat if it is one at all. so bob and his girlfriend spend the day in the office. the police are called. the administration at the school is demonizing my friend for owning a legal firearm. anyways they eventually reach the decision: give up the gun or be expelled. they said originally that the gun wouldnt be destroyed or anything and would simply be put into storage, along with the 1000 rounds, for the rest of the school year, whereupon we could go and reclaim it. anyways the detective who was overseeing this whole arrangement went to my moms work to ask for permission to enter the house and sieze the gun. he explains to her that the gun will not be destroyed and we could get it back later. AFTER she had signed it however the detective says on his way out "we're going to destroy it" . he lied to my mom, someone who used to work for him. he then must get bobs permission to destroy the gun. he tells bob that my mom, who is the reason bob is not living on the street right now, that my mom wnats the gun destroyed. odviously he will comply. so he lies to bob too. they come to the house that day while im still "sick" and take it along with the 1000 rounds and a hunting magazine I purchased so we could hunt with it. anyways bob is told by the school that he isnt suspencded BUT the administration doesnt want him anywhere near school property. later in the night the school calls my house and tells my mom that I shouldnt come in until monday either. now before i continue let me discuss my image a little. it was cold out as this happened in late febuary/early march. i wore a black leather trench coat, as it was very comfortable and kept me warm, plus i like it. i also wore a 30-06 casing around my neck. this was taken from my grandfathers 21 gun salute at arlington a few years ago and i wear it as a sign of rememberance for him. apparently i was presenting a "negative image" or something like that. anyways the next day both me and bob dont have school. his girlfriend has to go in with her father and discuss her situation. after leaving the building he procedes(sp) TO BEAT HIS OWN DAUGHTER IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SCHOOL PARKING LOT, IN VIEW OF NEARLY HALF THE SCHOOL AND THE SECURITY GUARDS nothing is done for 20 minutes while i continually hits and abuses her. the police come at one piont and tell him "you need to cool it" she comes to my house, where me and bob take pictures of the various marks hes left on her. the man has had numourus calls of domestic abuse for beating his kids and keeps a large folder of child porn on his laptop. we after we take the pictures we go down to the police station to file a report and hopefully put the sick bastard in jail for a little while. when we get there shes taken into the back and questioned. neither me or bob sees her for the rest of the day. then the detective who came to my house, and lied to both bob and my mom, comes out to question us. first he takes bob. after about an hour he comes back and takes me for questioning. bear in mind we are still here to file the report. he asks me one question regarding why we are there. he then begins to question me about the gun, asking me if its been fired, have we done anything illgeal with it, why 1200+ rounds? i begin to defeand myself and my friend. after we left the station bob tells me that the detective did the exact same thing with him! anyways we sit out for the rest of the weekend, simply stewing in our own rage at the situation. my mom, another person who isnt exactly thrilled with the idea of a gun in the house, but still supports us, has to come in and talk to the school with us on monday. on monday we go in, expecting to return to our regular day after the meeting. this is not the case. apparently we need to see "an outside opinion" in the form of a psychological evaluation. its supposed to be with someone outside of the school. so they set it up with the school district psychologist. this happens two days later. bobs girlfriend must also go under the whole psychological evaluation thing. anyways on wensday when we're all supposed to go it turns out that its not just the district psychologist who is meeting us. the prinicple, both assitant principles, the detective who lied to us, they're all there too. very "outside" dont you think? anyways the talk to me about various things, and conduct myself in a very calm open manner. they question me on various things, and i do get to call the detective a liar infront of everyone, so that makes me feel a tad better. however the story ends well because all of us were allowed back into school. but i cannot where my necklace and meither me nor bob can wear trench coats. the principles can however. the reason we didnt fight this as hard as we could ahve is becasue we're both seniors and graduation is close at hand. however AFTER graduation i will have about 6 differant civil liberties organizations on speed dial.

well thats my story, sorry for the long post. hope that helps everyone understand just how bad the worlds gotten.
 
first of all that was way too long, you really could have abbreviated it...

so lemme get this straight... you and your friend went out and bought a gun, and you two were outted about that in school... so the police steal your gun and you get kicked out of school? is that about accurate? if that's so then id get a lawyer and call your civil liberties organization. the fact that you own a gun isnt anybody's business to begin with, and you're not violating the law by owning a gun and going to the pistol range.... its totally out of the school's jurisdiction and they have no business knowning about it even. the police have no right to steal your gun like that, so id fight to get it back.
 
sorry about the length, typing on emotion...

and yes thats more or less the gist of it. we were also kicked out becasue of the way we chose to dress. we're currently trying to get the gun back right now and come june 17th (day after graduation) i will call alot of organizations.
 
While the story as you present it doesn't sound fair at all, you have to remember what the big picture at high school really is. The goal is to graduate, and as much as it might burn you up now, graduating is going to be MUCH more important to you in the long term than whatever happens to your gun right now.

I know it isn't fun, but suck it up, jump through the hoops, and do whatever it takes to graduate first, before you consider any action against the school. I know you said you are going to do that, but I'm just reaffirming it. Graduation is the goal. Don't take your eye off the ball. Good luck.
 
Have they completely given up on paragraph structure in public schools?


I'd consider the loss of your gun a very cheap lesson.
 
First of all, I'm sorry this all happened, but second of all, you really need to cut and paste what you wrote, and put it into MS Word and see all of your errors. Besides the fact that you need paragraphs for people to read your story without hurting their eyes, you need to clear up your spelling, and most of all your grammar - if people cannot understand your story, they can't help you.

I know you think this is just a post to a message board, but if you actually care to do something about what happened to you and your friend, you'll want to have a clear, understandable, honest, and compelling account of what happened to you. I'm sure there is even more than what you've written here, and it is wise to keep the story short, but also make sure you write down everything important that happened, and every mistruth that was uttered. More than likely it may take your two or three hours to write it all down properly, but it will be worth the time and effort in the end.


Next, you have to figure out what you want to do to, don’t just sit back and say you will get civil liberties groups after you graduate, because I guarantee you that by then, you’ll have moved on and have other issues to deal with. Do it now if you are going to do it. From what I have read, this is what I think should be your goals: A. get your rifle and ammo back, B. Make sure the detective in question is appropriately punished, C. Make sure that you can make up all of the work you missed while being removed from school that your grades are not effected, and D. make sure that your lady friend’s father is punished. You have already proved that your local police department is useless, so you will be forced to go over their heads. I’ve listed a few groups that may be able to help you if they deem your case sufficient. Mind you that these groups are not businesses, they are independent groups that fight for the rights of people that do not have any power to push other people with, like you, and they have very high operating costs, so don’t be surprised if they ask you to become a paying member, do it, they could use your help.

If you do this, it will be a good start, and I am sure that you will find some help to deal with the problems you have listed. Do not expect other people to do it for you, be proactive, push as hard as you can push and let everyone involved know that you are not going to give up. When you contact the groups you want to help you, be sure to remember that they are probably getting requests from people all over the country how have been wronged, don’t let those other people get ahead of you, contact the groups every day, let them know you are serious and are determined to make things straight. And most of all, do NOT submit anything, to ANYONE, that looks like your post here, I can guarantee you it will be thrown away before they read the first sentence. Rest assured that the ACLU or the GOA wants to help others, but they also want to help themselves, and they do not want to associate themselves with someone who doesn’t know when to make a paragraph.

After you get the ball rolling, let us all know how it is going, because I am sure everyone at THR is more than willing to help a fellow shooter when they are in need.

ACLU of Michigan
Executive Director: Kary Moss, Esq.
60 West Hancock
Detroit, MI 48201-1324
Phone: 313-578-6800
Fax: 313-578-6811

Gun Owners of America
8001 Forbes Pl Suite 102
Springfield VA 22151
PH: 703-321-8585
FX: 703-321-8408
[email protected]


Michigan State Rifle Association

Postal address
PO Box 71
Marshall, Michigan
49068-0071

Phone

1-888-655-MRPA
 
You might want to speak to the Internal Affairs (or equivalent) division of the detective's department. I'm sure they'd be interested to know that he blatantly lied to several people in order to confiscate and destroy a perfectly legal item.
 
i know i know my post wasnt pretty looking. not a pretty story either and i tahnk you guys for your support. ill probably eidt it when i have a bit more time. i know graduation is the first thing in order. for me this is even more important becasue im currently enlisted in the marines DEP (delayed entry program) and so i think i might be able to count on their support too. again thanks and ill edit my post later tonight (LOTS of work to do)
 
No offense RR, but I have to agree with TGI ...

Must be something wrong with your school too, that as a nearly to be graduated senior your writing skills appear to be so poor :(

What do they do all day with you all in school ..... :confused:


Anyway, good luck, and thanks in advance for your future service in the Marines (where BTW I'm sure you'll learn that appearances mean a lot ;) ).
 
Redneck Revolver: When you write papers for school, does the teacher take off points for failing to capitalize the first letter of each sentence? I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. This is a serious question.
 
I'm sure they'd be interested to know that he blatantly lied to several people in order to confiscate and destroy a perfectly legal item.
It’s very doubtful the gun was destroyed. More than likely it can be found in the detective’s gun safe. In his home. :(
 
Basically you screwed up in giving it up. Your mom should have never let you be interviewed much less given up the gun. Now that those things have happened, your position is seriously diminished. I'd seek a court order for the return of the rifle. No legal action was taken to alledge that a Columbine was in the works. This is seizure without due process, but largely because you agreed to it.

Rule number 1: Minors should not talk to law enforcement without a parent or lawyer (preferably both) present.

Rule number 2: Ask if you are under arrest, if not terminate the interview and leave.
 
I would question the school board on how you were kept from school and required to submit to medical evaluation over a firearm that you don't own.
 
RR

First of all:Keep Your Cool!

Do not allow anyone to get you to lose your temper.
If need be count to ten or whatever calming process you need to keep from saying anything that they can use against you.

If they lose they look like a$$holes, If you lose they ruin your life.
Your life is worth more than a WASR-10. If trying to get it back for you and your friend costs you your future, you have lost.

Don't just give up, but watch your six.

Good Luck and keep us posted.
 
And, another thing

I was told this once, by a judge, when I was getting a little too wise about fighting a speeding ticket. I was in the sure I could get out of the ticket, but I went about talking to the people that have earned their respected positions in the absolute wrong way.

"Son, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor."

You may want to remember that while you attempting to remedy your current situation. Again, as noted by the others, some cutting and pasting is in order, to let others better understand you, and help you. I think you will find out that in this world, communication can be your most effective "weapon".

Use those contacts that were given to you quickly, they WANT to help you. Those guys have made it their passion to fight for the RKBA issues ,and right the wrongs that the little guy cannot on his own. Do it tommorrow, and keep your heads down in school. Don't talk, don't cause trouble, and then wait for your buddies gun to be returned.



Also, be aware, you are going to PROBABLY come under some scrutiny about the rifle. If it was maybe bought for you, etc - I would actually have "Bob" be the interested party that heads up this effort, with you as maybe secondary role.

-Keith
 
Profiled

I think that you were profiled for wearing a trenchcoat and being a skinhead at some time before this whole unfortunate incident occurred, and talking about guns and the rifle in the school environment only served to raise that level of "paranoia". It seems that school authorities have been taking significantly more latitude in labeling behavior as being "disruptive to other students and the learning process" which probably led your mother into giving her consent to the police. Even a chain is considered a potential weapon in the schools where I live and must be worn hidden if at all. Enforcement of this ban is often totally arbitrary though.

I think you expressed yourself very well in your writing and I really appreciate the opportunity to hear about your experience. You made it clear just how well intentioned you were. Not only are there too many young people like yourself who simply don't have enough opportunity to enjoy the shooting sports, but also too many who either by choice or ignorance deny that the sport even has a legitimate existence.
 
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RR --

Get a lawyer.

The Marines are not going to help you. Their job is to make you into a Marine so you can fight Iraqi insurgents, not to take on the police department in your home town. Once you are inducted, you can't pursue this because you won't have 15 seconds a day to call your own time.

The cop lied and cofiscated a legal firearm. That's theft under color of authority. Decide whether or not you wish to pursue that. If the answer is yes, then pursue it, using all avenues and all facilities available to you.
 
Use those contacts that were given to you quickly, they WANT to help you. Those guys have made it their passion to fight for the RKBA issues ,and right the wrongs that the little guy cannot on his own.


*Ahem*

The ACLU has made it their passion to fight for the RKBA?? :eek:


*BWAAAH-HAA-HAA-HAA-HA-HAAAAAH!*

-Jeffrey
 
R.R.
Consider that you are talking about a single rifle that is allegedly your friend's, but you chose to name this thread, "My Guns and School."

My: yours
Guns: plural

It has been said several times already, you MUST work to improve your written language skills. That means making sure that what you write accurately characterizes what you want to say, and not just making sure that you begin sentences with capital letters, have subject-very agreement, and spell things correctly.

Some people have rightly pointed out that there is an incongruity with YOU getting questioned and harassed for a gun you are not the owner of. The chain of responsibility for that gun, since you are not the owner and you are a minor, should end with either Bob, or your mother who has allowed Bob to have the gun in her house.

I do not see why an adult (Bob is 18 and an adult in the view of the law) is not free to legally own a rifle at the same time as he is a student in a public school. The school is not free to dictate whether he watches porno movies or has sex out of wedlock or does anything else that is his business alone and not illegal. That is an issue I think should be raised with the help of a lawyer. They extorted you guys into giving up a rifle when they had no legal right to make that demand, and threaten you with expulsion from school. Could they threaten to expel a kid from school because he went and got himself a powerful CAR and the school administration didn't like his choice?! :fire:

-Jeffrey
 
Redneck, take this and edit your first post.

I'm bored, sue me:

At the request of another poster i've decided to share my experience with guns, and my high school.

This happened before joining the high road. Let me give a little background info. I was 17 during the course of these events, i'm now 18. My friend has been 18 throughout the entire length of the story though is soon to turn 19. We’ll call him bob in this story.

Bob was kicked out of his house back in august. Me, being pretty much is only friend other than his girlfriend, took him in and he has been living with me since. We're good friends and have bonded a lot since he's lived here. We both are avid believers in the constitution and firearms ownership. Obviously since he is somewhat homeless however, he really doesn’t have any money to indulge in owning a gun himself.

Around Christmas time I was feeling pretty bad for him. No family of his own to spend the holidays with, I decided I would be charitable and give him money to buy a gun. I couldn’t go and get it myself because, like I said, I was only 17. So shortly after Christmas, he and I went to Dunham’s. We had been there a few times before and he seemed interested in the g3 or CETME models. However the last visit he told me he was fond of the wasr-10, like me. This is significant because I also liked the gun a lot. Anyways I gave him the money, he passed the background check, and we left the store with a brand new gun.

Now before you guys go saying I wanted the gun for me, that’s not true. I thought maybe me and him could go shoot together, and bond some more as friends yes, but never did I say or think that it was MY gun. A couple months go by and we figure "what goods a gun without ammo?" so we order 1000 rounds from cabella(sp) online, at $75 (not bad huh?) wolf 122gr jhp. About a month afterwards, still not shot off a single round because it’s difficult to find a range that will allow a: bi-metal jackets which my wolf ammo had or B: a range where you can shoot and AK replica. Anyways life continued happily. Ownership was fairly known at school, and kind of expected (i’m very vocal about the 2nd amendment) students questioned it but they were pretty ignorant and so we didn’t pay any mind to them.

Around the time the hockey team was going to the finals, they started shaving their heads. we and bob didn’t exactly like it since we're true skinheads (as in we shave our heads completely bald, not in the neo-nazi sense) I was "sick" one day because I wanted to sleep in. apparently during the day bob said that he didn’t appreciate the hockey team shaving their heads. No mention of a gun or even violence was uttered. Someone questioned his girlfriend, someone who is disapproving of firearms, as to whether or not bob owned a gun. She said yes and knew how to use it. Since I wasn’t there I cannot say for certain if that was a threat or not, but it’s quite a vague threat if it is one at all. So bob and his girlfriend spend the day in the office.

The police are called. The administration at the school is demonizing my friend for owning a legal firearm. Anyways they eventually reach the decision: give up the gun or be expelled. they said originally that the gun wouldn’t be destroyed or anything and would simply be put into storage, along with the 1000 rounds, for the rest of the school year, whereupon we could go and reclaim it.

Anyways the detective who was overseeing this whole arrangement went to my moms work to ask for permission to enter the house and seize the gun. He explains to her that the gun will not be destroyed and we could get it back later. AFTER she had signed it however the detective says on his way out "we're going to destroy itâ€.

He lied to my mom, someone who used to work for him.

He then must get bobs permission to destroy the gun. He tells bob that my mom, who is the reason bob is not living on the street right now, that my mom wants the gun destroyed. Obviously he will comply. So he lies to bob too.

They come to the house that day while I’m still "sick" and take it along with the 1000 rounds and a hunting magazine I purchased so we could hunt with it. Anyways bob is told by the school that he isn’t suspended BUT the administration doesn’t want him anywhere near school property.

Later in the night the school calls my house and tells my mom that I shouldn’t come in until Monday either.

Now before I continue let me discuss my image a little. It was cold out as this happened in late February/early March. I wore a black leather trench coat, as it was very comfortable and kept me warm, plus I like it. I also wore a 30-06 casing around my neck. This was taken from my grandfathers 21 gun salute at Arlington a few years ago and I wear it as a sign of remembrance for him. Apparently I was presenting a "negative image" or something like that. Anyways the next day both I and bob don’t have school.

His girlfriend has to go in with her father and discuss her situation. after leaving the building he proceeds(sp) TO BEAT HIS OWN DAUGHTER IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SCHOOL PARKING LOT, IN VIEW OF NEARLY HALF THE SCHOOL AND THE SECURITY GUARDS nothing is done for 20 minutes while I continually hits and abuses her. The police come at one point and tell him "you need to cool it" she comes to my house, where I and bob take pictures of the various marks he’s left on her. The man has had numerous calls of domestic abuse for beating his kids and keeps a large folder of child porn on his laptop.

We after we take the pictures we go down to the police station to file a report and hopefully put the sick bastard in jail for a little while. When we get there she’s taken into the back and questioned. Neither I nor bob sees her for the rest of the day. Then the detective who came to my house, and lied to both bob and my mom, comes out to question us. First he takes bob. After about an hour he comes back and takes me for questioning. Bear in mind we are still here to file the report. He asks me one question regarding why we are there. He then begins to question me about the gun, asking me if it’s been fired, have we done anything illegal with it, why 1200+ rounds? I begin to defend myself and my friend.

After we left the station bob tells me that the detective did the exact same thing with him! Anyways we sit out for the rest of the weekend, simply stewing in our own rage at the situation. My mom, another person who isn’t exactly thrilled with the idea of a gun in the house, but still supports us, has to come in and talk to the school with us on Monday. On Monday we go in, expecting to return to our regular day after the meeting. This is not the case. Apparently we need to see "an outside opinion" in the form of a psychological evaluation. It’s supposed to be with someone outside of the school. So they set it up with the school district psychologist. This happens two days later. Bobs girlfriend must also go under the whole psychological evaluation thing.

Anyways on Wednesday when we're all supposed to go it turns out that it’s not just the district psychologist who is meeting us. The principle, both assistant principles, the detective who lied to us, they're all there too. Very "outside" don’t you think?

Anyways the talk to me about various things, and conduct myself in a very calm open manner. They question me on various things, and I do get to call the detective a liar in front of everyone, so that makes me feel a tad better. However the story ends well because all of us were allowed back into school. But I cannot where my necklace and neither neither me nor bob can wear trench coats. The principles can however. The reason we didn’t fight this as hard as we could have is because we're both seniors and graduation is close at hand.

However AFTER graduation I will have about 6 different civil liberties organizations on speed dial.
 
This is going to torque some folks on this board, but oh well, I gotta say it. I havn't been flamed yet, it's gotta happen sometime:

Like peacefuljeffery said, don't waste your time with the ACLU. For some reason, they only see 9 amendments in the bill of rights. Since there's a firearm involved, they likely won't touch it. They're busy with defending child molesters and making sure people are compensated for the pain and suffering inflicted by looking at a cross somewhere. :rolleyes:

Stick with Gun Owners of America, and you might want to try NRA. I think they got involved with the high-schooler that wanted to pose with his trap gun for the yearbook.
 
At the risk of turning this debate on its head and making it into something it shouldn't be, I am going to defend the ACLU.

The ACLU defends civil liberty's BLINDLY, and sometimes that means defending neo-fascists, and sometimes that means defending firearm owners, to them all Americans have inalienable rights that can not be taken away. The ACLU is contstantly bagged by the the right and the so called "neo-con" movement, but this is entirely for political reasons and generally the attacks are filled with the juvenile, ad hominem attacks neo-cons are best known for.

There are plenty of idiots within the ACLU, just like any other orginization its size, but there is no other orginization in this country more willing to fight authoritarianism and abused power than the ACLU.
 
Ok - let's see if I can summarize what we have here:

1 Kid with the writing skills of a 7th grader (and that's being generous) posting on a firearms related forums complaining how unfair it all was.

3 H.S kids - one female who gets beat by pop and a couple of trenchcoat wearing, head shaving kids - one a self proclaimed 'redneck' who wears a 30-06 casing around his neck as a 'rememberance' (yeah right ok)

18 yr old H.S. kid kicked out of own house goes to live with H.S. buddy - (dunno about you all, but I figure but pop prolly didn't kick him out of his house for eating crackers in bed - ya think?)

17 yr old kid apparently lives with mom - no dad anywhere in sight?

This 17 yr old kid gives money to friend to buy an AK clone & 1000+ rnds of ammunition. They have the rifle and ammo for what - several months? and have not yet figured out legal and safe a place to shoot? Hey rr if this is your first rifle - why not buy a 10-22 and a couple a bricks of long rifle - at least that you know you can shoot just about anywhere without getting hassled?

Another question, did you ask mom what she thought you 'giving' money to your mooch friend so he could buy a piece of crap Ak clone?

Nah - you just wanted a cool AK-47 like you see in the movies - so you and your 'posse' could can tell people at "skool" - "yeah we have a gun and we know how to use it" -

:rolleyes:

Now I'm not saying RR & his pals are psycho like Dylan and Kleebold - but if you take the self absorbed whining with a grain of salt and look at this objectively there were a LOT of red flags flying here - I'd say from what I can see, the school and local constabulry did just fine. And maybe RR will learn a little lesson - frankly it's a cheap one at that.

Redneck Revolver - if you walk like a duck, and talk like a duck - don't be too suprised if the people you meet "mistake" you for a duck....
 
Inquisitor, I'm sure you support them for the good they do, and they do some good, and that's fine with me. I'm telling RR that they will most likely be of no help to him, and injected my opinion into it. If they truly supported all of the BOR, as written, it would be different, but they pick and choose what to defend, even defending what is not there to begin with.

If you can give me an example of the ACLU coming to the defense of a gun owner on 2A grounds, I'll gladly concede my ignorance.
 
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