My Issue With A Carry Gun

[.38 Special]

Hearing clinic guy here again...

There is no centerfire round that is "safe" to use without protection. Yes, some are louder than others, but that's kind of like saying you'd rather be shot in the head with a .308 than a .30-'06.

There is no way to completely protect yourself from noise-induced loss at an indoor range, short of wearing a full-face helmet which covers your entire skull.

Outdoors, plugs and muffs - worn correctly, of course - are adequate against any small arms fire I am aware of, as long as the muzzle isn't right next to your face. I have not tested this (or seen it tested) in places with a roof, and can only say that I agree with everyone else's observation that such places can still be pretty loud.

Noise does not have to be painfully loud, nor cause immediate buzzing/ringing/etc. in the ears, in order for it to be dangerous.

Opening the mouth doesn't help, unfortunately. Opening the Eustachian tubes probably does not either - it might help avoid eardrum rupture in extreme overpressure situations like cannon fire, but the eardrum is rarely the cause of noise-induced loss - and anyway, opening (and keeping open, in particular) the tubes takes more than just an open mouth. Most people are able to do it using the jaw muscles to open the jaw and pull it backwards, toward the throat. The feeling is a bit like yawning, and when done properly there will be an odd hollow sound in the ears, and the sound of your own breathing will be loud to you. Now imagine trying to maintain that feeling while shooting.

For the OP, I would recommend choosing a gun for reasons other than volume, and then practicing outdoors with muffs and plugs. That is almost guaranteed to preserve your hearing.

 

[Nuclear]

I’ve used electronic hearing muffs for several years now, and I was concerned as they have a very fast response time, but it isn’t zero. My hearing has not gotten measurably worse over three years of shooting 9mm at least once a week per my audiologist.

 

[Orion8472]

Hearing clinic guy here again...

There is no centerfire round that is "safe" to use without protection. Yes, some are louder than others, but that's kind of like saying you'd rather be shot in the head with a .308 than a .30-'06.

There is no way to completely protect yourself from noise-induced loss at an indoor range, short of wearing a full-face helmet which covers your entire skull.

Outdoors, plugs and muffs - worn correctly, of course - are adequate against any small arms fire I am aware of, as long as the muzzle isn't right next to your face. I have not tested this (or seen it tested) in places with a roof, and can only say that I agree with everyone else's observation that such places can still be pretty loud.

Noise does not have to be painfully loud, nor cause immediate buzzing/ringing/etc. in the ears, in order for it to be dangerous.

Opening the mouth doesn't help, unfortunately. Opening the Eustachian tubes probably does not either - it might help avoid eardrum rupture in extreme overpressure situations like cannon fire, but the eardrum is rarely the cause of noise-induced loss - and anyway, opening (and keeping open, in particular) the tubes takes more than just an open mouth. Most people are able to do it using the jaw muscles to open the jaw and pull it backwards, toward the throat. The feeling is a bit like yawning, and when done properly there will be an odd hollow sound in the ears, and the sound of your own breathing will be loud to you. Now imagine trying to maintain that feeling while shooting.

For the OP, I would recommend choosing a gun for reasons other than volume, and then practicing outdoors with muffs and plugs. That is almost guaranteed to preserve your hearing.

I greatly appreciate the input of a specialist. Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post.

Anytime I'm at the range, if I'm shooting anything larger than a 22lr, I use both plugs and muffs. If just 22lr, then I'm good with just the plugs.

The reason I didn't want to choose a 9mm carry gun is that even with plugs and muffs and an outdoor range, I was thinking the "pop" was too loud, and didn't want to exasorbate the issue. I have mild tinitus...and would rather not make it worse. That's why I felt it best to carry 22lr. Something most would see as a bad choice.

But really, it is mostly academic. It is extremely unlikely I'd ever have to use a gun in a defensive situation.

Any more sage advice will always be appreciated!

 

[tactikel]

I’m in the same boat, hearing loss from upland game hunting for 40 years. I use foam plugs and good muffs for all practice. I practice a lot. If, God forbid, you are involved in a SD situation you will be so amped up you will neither hear the report, nor feel the recoil. Don’t prioritize your hearing over your survival in a SD situation.

 

[chaim]

I'm with many who say to use double hearing protection when practicing (and outdoor ranges will be better for your hearing as well) if you are that concerned that normal target practice will cause hearing damage. You want to use a caliber that will give you a better chance at stopping a threat. For home defense, I generally use .38spl, .45ACP and .45LC (soon to add .44spl) due to the lower decibel rating, outdoors the noise will dissipate better so I'm more willing to use supersonic rounds (9mm, .357mag, etc.). A 9mm is my usual carry gun. If you aren't comfortable with even double hearing protection, consider getting a 9mm pistol or .38spl revolver (or other suitable round for carry and home defense) and getting a similar .22lr pistol or revolver as a trainer. My Glock 44 is the same size as my Glock 19 and makes a good trainer for it, a K-frame .22 will be no different in dimensions from a K-frame .38 or .357. Also, a longer barrel will be quieter than the same caliber in a shorter barrel.

 

[The Night Rider]

Before you read this, understand that I am not a medical professional and I'm trying to explain what I was told by a medical professional. And I'm sure I didn't get it completely correct.

According to the VA I am 10% disabled from hearing loss(157 bucks a month and free hearing aids for life). (The other 70% is from other stuff)

When I was fitted for my hearing aids the audiologist sat me down and explained my hearing loss to me.

She didn't say that my hearing loss was the result of artillery and Small Arms fire in those words but that's what she said.

What she told me is that my hearing loss overall was actually very mild but in a certain range of my hearing it dropped off to almost zero sharply. She called it a hearing notch I don't remember the scientific term that she used to say that it was from repeated exposure to gunfire and artillery but again, that's what she said.

The following is the important part of what I'm trying to say.


What she told me was that the main problem wasn't hearing loss it was tinnitus. I am currently sitting on my couch with my cat drinking my morning coffee. There's no radio or TV or air conditioner on in the house and my ears are ringing like a doorbell.

Actually, those of you who have Tinnitus know it doesn't really sound like a doorbell it sounds more like when you get static on a radio and you hear that high pitch WHEEEEEEEEEE in the background.

Even when I'm wearing my hearing aids there are certain things that I watch on TV or if I'm talking to somebody and I hear the words that they're saying but I can't understand them. It's like I can hear you talking in the Next Room but I can't make out the words.

According to my audiologist that's the primary damage from hearing loss related to exposure to gunfire.

 

[Rodfac]

Extended exposure to drills, saws, leaf-blowers, lawn mowers, loud music, hammering, or driving with open windows at highway speeds can cause permanent noise-induced hearing loss.

Yep...and add motorcycle riding to the potential for hearing loss list as well.

Good post; very apropos Night Rider. I've got the same help and advice from the VA.

Use plugs & muffs, guys, even with .22 LR ... or you'll end up like me. Nearly deaf at 77, and I've worn muffs plus plugs since my 40's. If you're doing any shooting whatsoever...wear them both.

Best regards, Rod

 

[Orion8472]

So,...I went to a gunshow in my area, yesterday. I walked it looking for 9mm carry guns that felt good in my hand. My top pick was the Springfield Armory Hellcat. Now, having said that, I'm still uncertain about shooting it, even with both plugs and muffs.

Rodfac, you said that you wear both, and have done so since your 40's....but still "nearly deaf" at 77. Was this because of what you did BEFORE wearing both plugs and muffs?

 

[I6turbo]

I’ve used electronic hearing muffs for several years now, and I was concerned as they have a very fast response time, but it isn’t zero. My hearing has not gotten measurably worse over three years of shooting 9mm at least once a week per my audiologist.

That's not how electronic muffs work -- they don't rely on response time nor do they "activate" or otherwise electronically reduce the dB level. They are just regular muffs, but with a microphone and low-volume speaker built in to allow the user to hear normal low-volume things that are happening around him, carry on conversations more normally, etc. (and if you crank the volume up they will pick up faint sounds that you can't hear with your naked ears, although somewhat unnatural sounding). The speaker is only capable of producing sound at a relatively low dB level (normal conversation, ambient noise, etc), nowhere nearly as loud as a gunshot or anything else at a dangerous level. So, electronic muffs don't put one at any additional risk due to the electronic component. Their effectiveness and safety is whatever their dB reduction is, just like non-electronic muffs.

The "problem" with most of the popular electronic muffs for shooting loud guns is that they only offer about -22 dB reduction vs. the -30 and more that some of the non-electronic versions offer.

 

[The Night Rider]

So,...I went to a gunshow in my area, yesterday. I walked it looking for 9mm carry guns that felt good in my hand. My top pick was the Springfield Armory Hellcat. Now, having said that, I'm still uncertain about shooting it, even with both plugs and muffs.

Rodfac, you said that you wear both, and have done so since your 40's....but still "nearly deaf" at 77. Was this because of what you did BEFORE wearing both plugs and muffs?

You stated that your concern is being a music lover, so let me at least give you this. My hearing aids are the best sound system I have ever had.

Hearing aid technology has come Leaps and Bounds from even the 90s.

I still remember the very first time I listen to Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon on my hearing aids. It literally sounded better than it does on my Kenwood stereo, of course the Kenwood isn't tuned my ears and it's not making up for my deficit in hearing.

My hearing aids are set to a certain decibel level so you can't blast the music, not that you would want to but I sat on my couch and I listened to Pink Floyd through my hearing aids and I heard every note. I heard every word spoken. When Roger Waters farted between tracks I heard that too (<That's an embellishent).

 

[Orion8472]

Night Rider, I appreciate your reply.

 

[jstert]

i’m going against the grain here…sell the ruger lcp22, get a ruger sr22, load it exclusively with cci minimags, practice the snot out of it (with hearing protection), become one with it and carry it for your protection.

i have about 20k rounds through my sr22. i know it and i’m accurate with it. with cci ammo it runs like a singer sewing machine. its trigger pull is way easier and smoother than that of a ruger lcr 22lr. it’s not my always ccw…yet (this honor belongs to a keltec p32 now, another great option). i can see my sr22 filling most of my protection needs later as i age out.

the job of my own ccw of any caliber is to get me “off the x” of an unavoidably bad and likely rare situation. putting down the threat right there is second to just finding my way out. i would rather carry a well-practiced, comfortable ccw that i can consistently put rounds on target. if i were a cop, soldier, big game guide, nocturnal in my lifestyle or otherwise frequented apex predator locales a 22lr pistol would be insufficient, but i’m not. if i must do so, 2-3 rapid minimags to a deadly assailant’s torso would allow me space to break contact.

i tried the lcp 22lr, but it paled as a shooter compared to the sr22.

 

[Orion8472]

i’m going against the grain here…sell the ruger lcp22, get a ruger sr22, load it exclusively with cci minimags, practice the snot out of it (with hearing protection), become one with it and carry it for your protection.

i have about 20k rounds through my sr22. i know it and i’m accurate with it. with cci ammo it runs like a singer sewing machine. its trigger pull is way easier and smoother than that of a ruger lcr 22lr. it’s not my always ccw…yet (this honor belongs to a keltec p32 now, another great option). i can see my sr22 filling most of my protection needs later as i age out.

the job of my own ccw of any caliber is to get me “off the x” of an unavoidably bad and likely rare situation. putting down the threat right there is second to just finding my way out. i would rather carry a well-practiced, comfortable ccw that i can consistently put rounds on target. if i were a cop, soldier, big game guide, nocturnal in my lifestyle or otherwise frequented apex predator locales a 22lr pistol would be insufficient, but i’m not. if i must do so, 2-3 rapid minimags to a deadly assailant’s torso would allow me space to break contact.

i tried the lcp 22lr, but it paled as a shooter compared to the sr22.

It is a tad bigger than the SR22, but I do have the Taurus TX22,...but is [and the SR22] would be much less concealable for my smaller frame. Thanks for the reply, though. I do know that it would be extremely rare to have to pull out a gun...and would MUCH rather escape the area...because I don't wanna shoot anyone.

 

[CapnMac]

My top pick was the Springfield Armory Hellcat. Now, having said that, I'm still uncertain about shooting it, even with both plugs and muffs.

Hellcat is not a bad pistol, you would probably enjoy shooting it, especially in nice, controlled conditions.

One thing our pros here ave not brought up is that, life itself, particularly age, is hard on our hearing.
The age-related hearing losses are well documented, and that even for those not exposed to over-loud noises. And, with age-related loss, the higher frequencies are lost first.

Tinnitus is not an absolute measure (if an absolute albatross hung around your neck).
That's because there are a number of infections and diseases (and a significant number of 'cures' for those) that can result in tinnitus (and tracking of tinnitus as a 'side effect' of meds only has occurred in the last two decades or so).

So, this is complicated, there's not really a "do this and your hearing will be safe." The world around us is filled with less-tan comfortable sounds--lawn mowers, leaf blowers, chain saws, the neighbor kid's garage band.

For audiophile "music lovers" there is a particular evil in headphones, which is not necessarily the volume so much as the proximity. This is also seen with radio DJs, and Sonar operators, and other with long-term headphone use. (And more than a dime or two has been spent on retaining the hearing discernment of Sonar and SOSUS Operators.)

 

[J-Bar]

This is the most quiet .22 ammo I know of. Not reccomending it for carry, because that would be met with near universal derision. But it can be fun to shoot in a revolver or bolt action rifle. Never tried it in an autoloader. Recoil is so light I doubt it would work.

 

[jstert]

It is a tad bigger than the SR22, but I do have the Taurus TX22,...but is [and the SR22] would be much less concealable for my smaller frame. Thanks for the reply, though. I do know that it would be extremely rare to have to pull out a gun...and would MUCH rather escape the area...because I don't wanna shoot anyone.

a ruger sr22 can be concealed well with a decent holster and belt setup. the milt rosen holster is pricey but well worth it. a naa mini revolver works best as a deep ccw, but being single-action it’s a last-stand “alamo” piece.

https://shopruger.com/SR22-Mitch-Rosen-Cuban-Brown-Belt-Holster-RH/productinfo/50196/

 

[Orion8472]

a ruger sr22 can be concealed well with a decent holster and belt setup. the milt rosen holster is pricey but well worth it. a naa mini revolver works best as a deep ccw, but being single-action it’s a last-stand “alamo” piece.

https://shopruger.com/SR22-Mitch-Rosen-Cuban-Brown-Belt-Holster-RH/productinfo/50196/

I appreciate the info.

Honestly, I'm not a fan of the SR22. If I were going to get something similar, I'd be more apt to get the Walther P22Q with threaded barrel.

 

[Dutchman01]

Sorry for this topic. I know many will think it is dumb, but I'm bringing it up anyway.

It is an unfortunate thing, but I have sensitive hearing. But I still going to the range...thus only shoot 22lr. I have no issues with firing these. And before I continue, yes, I always use hearing protection.....good quality foamies and sometimes good quality earmuffs.

A 9mm can be a problem because of how loud it is and the "blast". Because of this, I had gone to carrying a Ruger LCP II in 22lr and using 45gr subsonic rounds just for the unlikely event that I'd have to defend myself while not having hearing protection on.

Why does it matter? Because I want to preserve my hearing more than I want to shoot powerful guns. I enjoy music too much. And it isn't just about that extremely rare incident. It's about training with it to become proficient with that gun. If I had a 9mm carry gun, I wouldn't be able to do this because how much practice would be needed.

But I got to thinking about the topic very recently. Most would say that 22lr is NOT a round to use in a self defense situation. And they're probably right....especially what I'm using. And honestly, I don't like the LCP II. I don't like how it feels in my hand, nor the sights.

My question is there any pistol ammo, in a good caliber [for defense] that would be less blast than typical rounds?[

9mm with a suppressor for the bulk of your practice. You get to keep your ears.

 

[Orion8472]

Dutchman, I don't want to jump through the ATF hoops and money...and the money for a can. I appreciate the advice, though.

 

[Old_Grouch]

I had gone to carrying a Ruger LCP II in 22lr and using 45gr subsonic rounds just for the unlikely event that I'd have to defend myself while not having hearing protection on.

At the muzzle there is relatively little difference in sound between sub-sonic and super-sonic rounds. The overwhelming loudness of a discharge is from the escape velocity (and volume) of the powder gasses (generally considered to be about 5,000 fps for handgun and 7,000 for rifle); not the projectile.
All of that aside; you need to decide which is a greater priority for YOU. Does preserving your hearing in the face of a life threatening situation take precedence over preserving your life?

 

[Rodfac]

Rodfac, you said that you wear both, and have done so since your 40's....but still "nearly deaf" at 77. Was this because of what you did BEFORE wearing both plugs and muffs?

In my opinion, probably. Small arms and artillery fire in Vietnam (2 tours), followed by unprotected jet engine noise for the remainder of my military career. Rod

 

[Orion8472]

In my opinion, probably. Small arms and artillery fire in Vietnam (2 tours), followed by unprotected jet engine noise for the remainder of my military career. Rod

Yeah, I can see how that would do it. Thank you for your reply!

 

[hoardingthemanual]

Extremely silly level of concern. Adjacent to responsibility is the only kindling left in this thread.

 

[Whiskeyhotel2020]

This thread has made some great points. I stopped reading the posts after the second page honestly. Having said that, my thought as soon as I was done reading your initial post was get a full size 22lr sig, glock, or 1911 to practice with and an identical one or closely similar in a more suitable defensive caliber. Or something you can get a 22 conversion kit for as long as it doesn't change the feel of the weapon drastically.

My second thought was a short barreled .22 pistol is one of the loudest firearms I've pulled the trigger on. I have a naa revolver in 22 mag that I carry in a pocket on days I don't carry a gun and that is the second loudest handgun I own. So maybe noise is a person perceived experiance as far as comfort level goes? Anyway if you're gonna carry a .22lr for defense so be it. I just hope your proficient enough to make your shot(s) count. Or your attacker is smart enough to see gun and stop. But at least you are taking responsibility for your own safety.

Having said that I'm not sure if anyone has suggested the keltec .22 that has the 20 round magazine that way you can give them a bunch in a short time.

The last thing that I will say is if you don't like the Ruger get rid of it (if you have t already) if you dislike it. Trade it in for something you'll enjoy handling more. Anyway thanks for the topic I didn't find it dumb and hope that the responses help. Stay safe and shoot lots.

 

[Orion8472]

Whiskeyhotel2020, thanks for the reply. In the winter, I can carry my TX-22, with 16 round magazine. Summer, too large to conceal under a shirt. But ultimately, it is about the extremely rare case that I'd need one.
Last night was one of those times when I SLIGHTLY felt I needed one. My niece and I were at the park [where she's been wanting to go in order to 'catch a frog'], and it has some trails that go off into the woods. We started to walk them,...but about 75yards away, we saw two very sketchy people emerge from the woods, so we turned around and quickly walked the other direction [the right thing to do...leave the area]. We were okay...and I didn't see them after we got out of their sight....but still, if they had come for us,...that could have been a different story.

Anyway, I'll figure something out to do...but yes, I'm gonna trade out that small Ruger.