My little gun control rant.

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The thing about allowing the purchase of military hardware is that it allows a private individual/corporation to make outfit a private army.

That is pretty much what the "militia" that is referred to in the 2A is. Non-federal troops, not under the control of the centralized gov't.

I don't see any issue with Citizens owning modern military hardware. As has been noted already, cost issues will keep larger armaments out of the reach of the majority of individuals. Not everyone can afford to put a shiny new M1A1 Abrams in their driveway (though that'd REALLY be "keeping up with the Joneses!!).
 
The whole idea of the citizens being able to repel the army should they be mobilized against us by a tyrant is just absurd to me. I'm sorry, but even if it's entirely legal, how many civilians do you think are going to have the equipment and training necessary to take on body armor at extended ranges? And those people aren't going to all be in one place, but spread out over the country. Any groups that do get together are also not likely to be familiar with each other. A good team works as part of a whole; whereas a town hall meeting with gun owners is more likely to involve petty infighting about who knows more about tactics.

I'm not saying that we don't deserve the right to own guns, I'm just saying that the time in which we can realistically defend against a military operation with infantry weapons and civilian training is gone. In the past, artillery was cannons, operated by men standing next to it. Calvary was horses. Now you have armored vehicles, planes, armored artillery batteries that can fire from miles away, cruise missiles (even non-nuclear tipped)...I'm sorry but a neighborhood watch with M4s isn't going to do much.

That said, I personally think guns should be treated like cars. Both are very safe if used and maintained properly, but very dangerous otherwise. Everyone knows the saying "Don't drink and drive," and I'm pretty sure everyone knows it's a bad idea to drink and shoot. Both can be considered a deadly weapon if used for assault or homicide. I know it's a bit of a bizarre stretch, but for those who suggest just letting anyone get a gun (maybe not felons), would you also suggest just letting anyone get a car? By that I mean someone with no license, no training or experience, just someone walks into a dealership and drives off in their new car. They're likely to wreck it (maybe not kill themselves) by not knowing the proper right of way or understanding traffic signals.

Similarly, I don't see a problem with requiring people be trained with guns. There are 2 main types of people that I can see being dangerous with guns, those being the untrained and the violent. We can't always preempt violence, but if you get convicted of a felony you lose rights (although I will agree that maybe after 10 years of being released for a smaller felony it would be okay), but you can do your best to preempt a lack of training. If someone is forced to be taught proper gun safety and marksmanship before using them, is that a bad thing?

My point is that everyone else's right ends where mine begins. I don't want to be shot because some idiot thinks "I want to show everyone how big my barrel is by pointing my gun at them" and then accidentally pulls the trigger because he didn't have his finger outside the trigger guard. I don't want to see on the news that someone shot five people because he was being mugged and missed the perp, but hit the guys behind him.

So yes, I think it should be perfectly legal to own fully automatic weapons, short-barreled shotguns, etc. However, I think before someone is allowed to purchase any firearm, they should have a license which states that they have:
-No felonies within the past X years
-Are qualified on a marksmanship course
-Are familiar with laws regarding deadly force
-Are familiar with proper safety practices and basic cleaning/maintenance

We require people to be familiar with traffic laws, and give a competency test for driving skills. Why not do the same for firearms?
 
In the 17 and 1800s, no special licensing was needed for a ship-owner to outfit his vessel with defensive weaponry that was at least as good as anything in the US inventory. The owner of a ship these days would have to jump through hoops and wait a minimum of several months to purchase the least effective defensive anti-aircraft weaponry available. Moderately effective light automatic cannon would require a $200 PER ROUND tax, and the lightest truly effective aircraft defense, the government would not allow private owners to possess.

What most gun owners seem to fail to grasp is that ships of war, the only strategic asset in existence when the Constitution was written, were placed under Congressional control. By natural extrapolation, it should then be obvious that the rights of US citizens include owning the type of weapons the individual modern soldier might possess, but do not include strategic assets such as warplanes, nuclear devices, or ballistic missiles.

Further, blue-skying about the neato-keen weaponry that could be owned "if we just had the money" shows an ignorance of the fact that US corporations must get. government approval before selling advanced weaponry to anyone other than the US military, and purchases of advanced weaponry for importation must be also approved.

In a nutshell, a proper understanding of the Constitution in the context of the time will show that each citizen today should at least be able to own automatic weapons, man-portable rockets, and light mortars.

John
 
would you also suggest just letting anyone get a car? By that I mean someone with no license, no training or experience,

Where is this magical land that requires training, experience or a license to purchase a car?
 
So yes, I think it should be perfectly legal to own fully automatic weapons, short-barreled shotguns, etc. However, I think before someone is allowed to purchase any firearm, they should have a license which states that they have:
-No felonies within the past X years
-Are qualified on a marksmanship course
-Are familiar with laws regarding deadly force
-Are familiar with proper safety practices and basic cleaning/maintenance

OK, and I get to determine the test. You don't pass it.

See how that works? Conditions and requirements regarding something that a small, but shrieking, part of the population wants to ban get ugly pretty fast. Just look at NY, where they're trying to use your employment history to determine if you can buy a pistol.

As far as not being able to repel the modern military with conventional small arms, you might want to head out to Afghanistan. A bunch of poor mountain-dwellers seem to be doing just that....


Larry
 
Okay, so maybe you don't have to have a license to buy a car, but you do have to have a license to drive one. The point is, I've never heard of anyone saying that it's an infringement of their rights to be required to take a class and a test in order to legally drive. Similarly, I don't see how it would be an infringement on rights to have the same level of requirements for owning a gun. With as bad as most drivers are, imagine how they would be without any experience, training, and only a vague understanding of what signals mean (e.g. they understand turn signals, "stop", and the stoplights, but don't get anything else). There would be a lot of wrecks. I know that I wouldn't want anyone unfamiliar with gun safety to be allowed to have a gun, simply because that is how accidents happen. It's not that hard to learn gun safety (I've learned most of it just by paying attention), but a lot of people think it's okay to wave a gun around and treat loaded guns as if they're unloaded (opposite of the correct rule).

DT Guy, you're taking my argument and pushing it to the extreme, and then attacking the result. I'm not saying that someone needs to have 1000 rounds spent, achieve a 1" group at 100 yards with a pistol, and have a 2-year degree or better from a Law School in order to pass. I'm saying something like: Hitting center of mass at 7 yards. Have taken a course (could even be a 15-minute course) on basic maintenance. Tested on the related laws and safety practices (to the same standard as a driver's license). I don't know about where you live, but in WA it's a 25-question test and you need to get 80% or better. Now, if every 16 year old can do that to drive, I don't see why people who are 18 or 21 can't do that to get a gun.
 
infringement of their rights to be required to take a class and a test in order to legally drive.
Driving is a privilege, not a right. Any argument based on that will be flawed from the get go.
There would be a lot of wrecks.
Um, there already are. Cars kill more people every year than guns. As a former driving instructor and CO State Trooper I can tell you that the State mandated standards for driver's education have not changed very much since the 1920's, at least in Colorado. I worked for a private company that held it's students to a much higher standard than that of the state.
Similarly, I don't see how it would be an infringement on rights to have the same level of requirements for owning a gun.
Purists will tell you that the wording of the 2nd Amendment is very clear that the ability to keep and bear arms is a right which shall not be infringed upon by the gov't. That the right to defend one's self is a right given to us by God and was simply acknowledged by the Bill of Rights.
 
But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.

Are you using this quote to show that Jefferson supported viewing OUR constitution as a "living document"? Hardly. This was his argument towards his rejection of the magna carta & the british monarchy, and that he did not undertake that effort lightly.
 
Driving is a privilege, not a right. Any argument based on that will be flawed from the get go.

I believe that this is correct. They're not even on the same playing field as one another.

OK, and I get to determine the test. You don't pass it.

That would probably be exactly what happened. But, that doesn't mean that I would disagree with having a class. In fact, I do think we need one, but, with a few provisions

-The Classes should exclude marksmanship test/scoring. Replace with a "firearms heritage" portion.
-The Classes should be administered by the states and not the Fed. It is not the right or responsibility to dictate any of this. In fact, their power is very limited according to the Constitution.
-Everyone should have to take it, not just gun owners. Everyone that fits the bill of US Code 10 should have to take it.
-It should not be a requirement to own a gun, it should be a requirement to be a citizen.
-It should be given in English.

Leave the felony part out for now because that part really deserves it's own attention separate from anything else until it gets fixed.

As far as a nation of citizens fending off a tyrant, I think that it is very possible. IMHO one of the biggest, if not THE biggest problems that we face is the fact that we have lost sight of the way that this is supposed to work.
 
Okay, so maybe you don't have to have a license to buy a car, but you do have to have a license to drive one.
Nope. You have to have a license to operate one on the state/federal roadways. Own it and drive it all you want on private property. Completely invalid at point one.

(Leaving alone as O.T. for THR the question of whether licensing the ability to drive on the public-owned roads is an infringement on your right to travel...)

Further, ownership and operation of a motor vehicle is not an uninfringable right enumerated in the Constitution -- and ownership of a firearm IS. You cannot apply the same standards even if autos didn't contribute to deaths (they do...LOTS) and if many guns were misused in accidental deaths (and they aren't -- those numbers are low and falling all the time, even without mandatory safety training). So, again, completely invalid at point two.

DT Guy, you're taking my argument and pushing it to the extreme, and then attacking the result.
That's only because he's watched politicians and government types long enough to know exactly what happens when things are regulated "for the public good."

(For further reading, research the terms "Poll Tax" and "Jim Crow." History is such a good teacher.)
 
You don't even have to study the excesses throughout history or in other governments, just look at what governments have actually done concerning the 2A rights of the citizens here in the U.S..

Local governments have tried to make possession outright illegal, or so restrictive as to be illegal (e.g. San Francisco passed an outright ban on handguns that the court had to strike down, DC banned handguns until the SCOTUS had to rule, Chicago, etc.) Permits just to purchase or possess are in place in various states (e.g. FOID cards). When did we need prior approval and have to pay the state to exercise an enumerated right like free speech or practice of religion? Carry isn't even permitted in states like IL and WI and is so restricted in "shall issue" states like CA and NJ to be effectively denied (anytime you unevenly apply the permission to exercise a right, the government has denied the right). Some shall issue and may issue states have set course requirements and fee prices so high as to deny the right to low income citizens. Again, when did we decide that you had to have the right income to even get permission to exercise a right? Voting was denied to many based on property ownership and income just to deny the right to ethnic groups when race could no longer be used to deny the right.

We don't even have to use the ruductio-ad-absurdum argument method to come up with non-existent illustrative extremes when we have absurd real laws in existence that deny your 2A rights.

Let's just look at raw facts. The reason most people who want to put fetters on the exercise of the 2A is that it's for the public health, but they don't bother to research the question of whether there's any real hazard to the public. Firearms homicide data does not show that there's a threat to public health. States with high levels of firearms ownership have lower firearms death rates than some with very low rates of ownership. This shows that the presence of firearms doesn't equal high firearms death rates. States with heavy restrictions on firearms ownership and carry have higher firearms death rates than those with high ownership and minimal restrictions. Again showing that death rates don't equate to ownership rates AND that the absence of government interference in the exercise of the right to keep and bear arms does not equal high firearms death rates nor does the presence of government interference in the exercise of the RKBA equate to lower firearms death rates when compared to the states with minimal interference. Rates of firearms ownership have gone up, the number of states that have changed from may to shall issue have gone up, the number of states that now allow carry have gone up and the violent crime rate has gone down. The removal of restrictions on firearms ownership should have increased the rate of firearms deaths, but that isn't the case. The rate of firearms deaths have gone down at the same time the restrictions on firearms ownership and carry have been removed. There may not be a causal relationship, but an honest look at the facts reveals that restrictions on firearms ownership and carry don't improve public health in this sense and therefore restricting the ownership and carry of firearms by citizens in general does nothing to improve public health. Detailed review of the available data shows what it has always shown, criminal on criminal firearms crime is a significant percentage of firearms injuries/deaths. Detailed review of the available data shows that statistically the means of suicide shifts, but the overall rate of suicides doesn't. There is no valid public health causal relationship between restricting your right to firearms and reducing the rate of deaths and injuries so there argument that it is for the public good is not based on fact, but is instead a sloppily established opinion.

If we see the problem with going down the road of limiting the right to keep and bear arms as well as realizing that the public health argument is based on sloppy reasoning and not on data then why make the argument that there's any reason to restrict your right to keep and bear arms?
 
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Another angle is that, for a safety course requirement to be legally enforceable there has to be some record of who has taken that training. And that would be de facto registration of gun owners.
 
Driving on public roads is regulated because by doing so, the driver is a potential threat to other operators of motor vehicles. A person who owns a gun that is kept at home is not. The use of that gun in a manner that poses at potential threat to others is already covered in most areas.

Every crime used to justify gun control laws is already a crime. Under federal law and in most states, the use of a firearm in the commission of a crime is already either an aggravating factor requiring a heavier sentence or a separate offense with mandatory prison time. Gun control is unnecessary because the sanctions for using a gun in a crime are already in place. Since these laws do not deter the criminal, they serve only to allow the state to control or criminalize otherwise law-abiding citizens. As such, they are undesirable.

Of all the causes of crime, such as rage, jealousy, poverty, racial background, etc., none have been outlawed. Implements that facilitate crime -- firearms, big knives, clubs, burglar tools and so forth -- are the only things that have been criminalized or controlled and those controls have shown little or no effect on the rate or number of crimes because the criminal has already decided to commit the crime. Most criminals, even the dumb ones seen on TV, don't believe they will be caught and many of them are not. Detroit's rate of clearance in murder cases is not exactly awe-inspiring. However, since the root causes of crime are difficult, expensive or controversial to address, the easy out is to add another layer of prohibitions, this time on the tools used by criminals.

And among legislators, the desire for easy answers that cost little to implement is almost as great as the desire to receive contributions. In Texas, the most recent state constitution says: "Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime." That was in 1876. Shortly after that constitution was ratified, the Legislature "regulated the wearing of arms" right out of existence, making it crime to carry a handgun (and a host of other implements) openly or concealed, essentially under any circumstances. The traveling exemption was poorly defined and was not an affirmative defense (i.e., did not prevent an arrest). That sorry state of affairs lasted almost to the end of the 20th Century through many sessions of the legislature and occupants of the Governor's Mansion. And just because they were often Democrats doesn't mean they were liberals: look at where most of your Southern Republicans came from. These were Southern Democrats, a breed entirely apart from those in the North and as conservative as the day is long.

Curiously, we always could (and still can) carry rifles and shotguns almost anywhere we want, but even going to the shooting range or gun shop with a handgun wasn't without risk. I can sling my Beretta CX4 over my shoulder and walk into the state capitol building as long as I am friendly and non-threatening. But heaven help me if I don't cover up my Beretta PX4. The reason one seldom sees a gun in the rear window of a pickup these days is the fear the gun will be stolen, not any concern about legal difficulties.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 was proposed and enacted largely because of the gangster activities during Prohibition. One has to wonder if the United States had not created Prohibition, which spawned much of the gangster activity because of the huge profits to be made (not unlike today's drug cartels), whether the NFA would have been enacted. Incidentally, it should be remembered that pistols and revolvers were also included in the original version of the Act. It's impossible to say, for sure, because there was also a major crime wave fueled by the Depression that was another factor.

Incidentally one does have to wonder about the new breed of SBS - the 14-inch-barreled guns used by the military and police. Shouldn't these also be removed from the purview of the Act?

Finally, neither major political party has a monopoly on gun control. The Acts of 1934 and 1968 could have disappeared overnight with an act of of any of Congresses seated in the past 42 years. The restriction on new fully-automatic weapons could go the same way. As you will note, no Congress, Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, has done this. Any President, from Nixon to Obama, could have stood up and said, "These laws don't work and I urge Congress to repeal them." Not one did.
 
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Unless I waive my rights, any government-mandated training, licensing, testing, etc. is an infringement of the 2nd Amendment. What part of "shall not be infringend" don't you understand? Any mandatory requirement that I have to meet before I can buy or carry a gun means that the government can create reqirements so draconian that nobody can own a gun. That's exactly what the 2nd Amendment is designed to protect against. And it's exactly what's happend. Just look at the CCW laws in California. People need "good cause" to obtain a permit here, and that "good cause" is based on the arbitrary decision of the Sheriff and his designees. Yeah, they issue permits, but not unless you meet the arbitrary and ever-changing standards of the Sheriff. And for all the shall issue states, what happenes when they jack up the prices so high that nobody can afford a permit? They'll issue the permit as long as you meet the standards created by law...and can pay the insanely expensive permit fee.
 
What part of "shall not be infringend" don't you understand?

I am almost tired of seeing that phrase; it's abundantly clear they don't understand any of it.

But what if we went by their book and we formed a militia? What if we all got together and formed the United States Irregulars, held regular, but non-governmental, meetings and training sessions, with the current military-style weapons (a cal. 223 black rifle and a 9mm pistol), wore "home-spun" (or store-bought) camo, had regular home-town drills (got to be "well-regulated") practiced call-outs in the middle of the night, set up phone trees and took an oath to protect the United States from all enemies, foreign or domestic, etc.

By its definition, the militia is made up of civilians who are not members of a governmental military force, which disqualifies both the Army and National Guard.

Playing by their rules, every "citizen soldier" is not only allowed to bear arms, they are required to bear arms and it doesn't matter where they live, New York City, Chicago, Washington, D.C. or La-La Land, laws restricting their right and duty to bear arms are unconstitutional and need not be obeyed (untaxed M4s for everyone).

What could the government or the antis say? Citizens are not only exercising their rights, they are performing their constitutional duty. They have elected their local officers and have a code of conduct, they train regularly, supply their own weapons and ammunition, use current military-style weapons and carry them in order to be ready at a moment's notice. Can't get much more "militia" than that!
 
The antis would write a breathless piece of sensationalism like this: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2022516,00.html

The whole theory that only the militia has the right to keep and bear arms is kinda pointless since we are the militia.

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/10C13.txt
STATUTE-
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.

According to the government all able bodied males who are U.S. citizens between the age of 17 and 45 are the unorganized militia. So I guess according to anti-gun theory, only males between the ages of 17 and 45 and the right to keep and bear arms. Isn't that view kinda prejudiced against women?
 
My First Post is a Rant!

Hello guys and gals, I am a reader of forums and I was pressured by my conscience to join and post here on this topic. Its hard to believe gun people are willing to deny others of the same rights they enjoy.

I read comments all the time about how if you’re going to carry dress nice, heavily tattooed people and the like should be questioned about their firearm purely by judging their looks. (because it makes all gun owners look bad) Or the carry laws don’t go far enough and more training or schooling is in order to exercise a right. Again its hard to believe gun people reflect background checks, tax stamps or asking states for the right to carry as not being infringed on.

Too many personal opinions and not enough calls from gun owners to hold true to our forefathers. I’m not going to get into all the reasons TPTB want to remove arms from citizens, its clearly not a issue about public safety.
IT IS BASED ON FEAR OF THE ARMED CITIZEN.

Anyway I digress, The point I was getting at is this right belongs to all Americans. If a person commit’s a crime, then for the entire punishment his constitutional rights are temporary waved. Bottom line criminals should be locked up, if ever found rehabilitated and released all constitutional rights should be returned. Don’t you see what is happening? More and more petty crap is being labeled felony & is being used as gun control on American citizens.

Kinda sad to read our gun people on board after board backing to trample on the rights of their country men. Hard to believe especially from gun friendly folks that post in favor of citizens losing their fair rights because of a Government plan to make some people second class citizens which is what being a felon means. Look criminals should be locked away period. And if you’re not locked away then apparently you are not a threat and as such should not be treated like you are.

Don’t you find it funny a person can be rehabilitated pay their debt to society yet never ever be forgiven?
Yet expected to pay taxes but not vote, expected to live honorably but not totally free.
If that doesn’t stink to you, then your horse is too high to smell it.
 
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Zombie hunter. I am hearing you I really am and I am careful in any thoughts on regulation of arms. However, what I fear is a person in suburbia with R1a lots (maybe 20 feet between homes), who goes to the store picks up a .50 cal and 1200 rounds and goes on his back deck to clean and make sure the ammo fits (yes I have heard of folks with NO training doing this with 22's and 12 gauges) and mayhem ensues.

I mean let's be honest, in the stix, well have at it, you are not going to hurt anyone but yourself and that is fine. This example may be an extreme but I have heard of this happening. With a 12 gauge you are going to get 1 round off with your ND, which is worse enough. But the guy with a full auto who freaks and keeps the trigger depressed spraying a full magazine into his neighborhood, is a real possibility.

I would prefer we had some mandated training, but what I fear is:

1. Who establishes , defines, and runs the training?
2. How do we track that someone is trained without ending up with what amounts to a national firearms ownership registry?

I would not restrict the use or ownership of those weapons, but I would like to see training. I would like to point out, my fear here is NOT on the actual intent of an armed citizen. I trust the vast majority of my fellow Americans have an honorable intent, what I question is people taking on more than they can handle. I see if everyday with guys who pick up HUGE campers with no idea how to tow, or the guy who buys himself a high powered bass boat with no training and takes out a dock or a boatload of people when he loses control driving in a manner he should not have even considered.

Now the answers to 1 and 2 seem to be the biggest obstacles for most of us when it comes to some type of mandated training. Is there any intelligent way to answer those?
 
A well regulated Militia; bet they have every members name, address, and type of arms owned in some fed registry just in case...of what?

Wasn't there a case not to long ago where a local Militia membership got rounded up on conspiracy/rico/trumped up charges or maybe they were all true....I was not there.

National emergency; turn in your guns.....Katrina?

There are so many good post in this thread...Sam and Hso both Salute; not to mention several other well stated opinions. Elections are coming soon and regardless of the rumors of voter fraud and rigged machines get out and vote! Double check your results and try and make a difference. Divided we fall.
 
Your idea reminds me of a post I read on another forum where a poster thought it was a great idea to have the gun stores teach each new buyer how to operate the weapon. ( of course this is the intelligent answer to your question.)
But we have training for a license to drive yet people are killed from reckless drivers all the time, Did these people start out reckless or just have a brain fart and for an instance became reckless?
Would this idea make the gun store liable? No more than the DMV is for passing the driver and giving him a license.

Training is what happens when you want to apply for a HCP, I don’t really see this as much of an infringement as I do about the part on asking the state for the authority to carry. But since it is all rolled up into one it is infringement. Voiding both 1 & 2 you can’t grant authority to any agency and not expect it to get abused. So the answer is NO to 1 & 2 leave the reasonability to the people and if they hurt someone (included me) It is their price to pay. I hardly think 1 & 2 is a cure all, but it is common sense and believe it helped me understand laws & reasonability.
But the only valid way if one wanted to install 1 & 2 is to keep it out of Governments hands, If it can’t be then it needs to be scraped.
Remember Police are trained more so than citizens yet they have ND’s regularly and in some cases kill people. No one is immune to ND even with training. I am sure you seen the video of the DEA agent in the class room who shot himself….LOL as funny as that is, it could have killed someone.
Some how I am betting if it did, his price to pay would have been a whole lot less than a citizen with a brain fart.

Just for argument sake my post was more about losing/infringing the right to arms than about training.
Also remember that states issue Permits not License, there is a BIG difference in the language.

I agree with the fact firearm ownership is a responsibly since SKY brought it up it is the same as voting…..

1 Educate yourself
2 Vote with sound mind
3 Vote the candidate and their record, not the Party
4 If your unsure, due your duty and DO NOT VOTE!

Works with Firearms too, personal reasonability or leave it alone
 
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Okay, so maybe you don't have to have a license to buy a car, but you do have to have a license to drive one. The point is, I've never heard of anyone saying that it's an infringement of their rights to be required to take a class and a test in order to legally drive. Similarly, I don't see how it would be an infringement on rights to have the same level of requirements for owning a gun. With as bad as most drivers are, imagine how they would be without any experience, training, and only a vague understanding of what signals mean (e.g. they understand turn signals, "stop", and the stoplights, but don't get anything else). There would be a lot of wrecks. I know that I wouldn't want anyone unfamiliar with gun safety to be allowed to have a gun, simply because that is how accidents happen. It's not that hard to learn gun safety (I've learned most of it just by paying attention), but a lot of people think it's okay to wave a gun around and treat loaded guns as if they're unloaded (opposite of the correct rule).

DT Guy, you're taking my argument and pushing it to the extreme, and then attacking the result. I'm not saying that someone needs to have 1000 rounds spent, achieve a 1" group at 100 yards with a pistol, and have a 2-year degree or better from a Law School in order to pass. I'm saying something like: Hitting center of mass at 7 yards. Have taken a course (could even be a 15-minute course) on basic maintenance. Tested on the related laws and safety practices (to the same standard as a driver's license). I don't know about where you live, but in WA it's a 25-question test and you need to get 80% or better. Now, if every 16 year old can do that to drive, I don't see why people who are 18 or 21 can't do that to get a gun.
In contrast to driving a car, keeping and bearing arms is a right enumerated in the Constitution. Even with the best of intentions, it would be easy to place restrictions on ownership which result in a curtailing of that right with undesired consequences.

People are bad drivers due to a number of factors, but judgment is a large factor. You'll find that many of the drivers on the road who have passed the driving test which requires knowledge of basic traffic laws do not follow many of the rules. Many don't signal or fail to stop for stop signs. Others will perform valid maneuvers but in situations where doing so is unsafe. All of the testing in the world will not prevent a person from behaving badly on the road when it comes down to practicing what they were quizzed on.

The existence of a test itself is problematic. Historically, literacy tests were used to deny minorities the right to vote.

I am certainly not an advocate for for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."
Are you using this quote to show that Jefferson supported viewing OUR constitution as a "living document"? Hardly. This was his argument towards his rejection of the magna carta & the british monarchy, and that he did not undertake that effort lightly.
I was quoting the opinion of a learned man who was also one of the framers of our constitution. While the context of this particular letter was regarding the Magna Carta, the principles espoused do not suddenly become invalid for other constitutions, US or otherwise.
 
Zombie hunter. I am hearing you I really am and I am careful in any thoughts on regulation of arms. However, what I fear is a person in suburbia with R1a lots (maybe 20 feet between homes), who goes to the store picks up a .50 cal and 1200 rounds and goes on his back deck to clean and make sure the ammo fits (yes I have heard of folks with NO training doing this with 22's and 12 gauges) and mayhem ensues.

What everyone keeps forgetting is the sheer cost of this stuff, which exerts a sort of "restriction" all its own. People keep saying "well, if we get rid of all restrictions where do we end? Are people allowed to own nukes?"

A bolt action single shot .50 BMG costs, what, 2 or 3 grand? A semi-auto .50 rifle costs upwards of 8 grand. A M2 BMG costs around $14,000 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m2-50cal.htm), weighs just over 80 pounds, and is over 5 feet long. It's not something that average joe would have the money, storage space, or inclination to run out and buy. Let's not forget the sheer cost to shoot the thing on top of that initial 14 grand, .50 BMG goes for, what, $3 a round. Squeezing off one little burst from his 14 thousand dollar gun at the range would run average joe $15 or more.

I just don't see many people other than rich gun hobbyists running out to buy a M2.
 
It's because the government doesn't rich corporations running out and buying advanced weaponry to outfit their own private army.
 
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