My local gun store closed by ATF

[RTFM]

http://magicvalley.com/articles/2007/03/14/news/top_story/108108.txt

TWIN FALLS - Red's Trading Post, one of Idaho's oldest gun shops, can trade no longer.

The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has revoked the business's license to buy, trade or obtain guns after an ATF audit found Red's employees sold guns improperly numerous times between 1999 and 2004.

Red's manager, Ryan Horsley, admits when the business sold guns it sometimes left blank required parts of a gun purchase form, omitted a background check on a special order, failed to log multiple handgun sales to the same customer in five working days, did not keep track of guns returned to manufacturers, threw away denied applications dealers are required to keep for 20 years and failed to post a gun safety sign and pamphlets.

The ATF revoked Red's license March 5, shutting down 90 percent of the income that has sustained the store through three generations of Horsleys.

"They are taking very minor things and blowing them out of proportion," said Terry Horsley, the shop's owner and Ryan's mother........

The story continues on at the link..
But darn! I love them there, there almost like family.... *Sigh*
To hear him speak on the local news.. it was just minor "less than 1%" accounting errors on money received.
Apparently they can still sell what's in the inventory, but can not acquire new or trade.

Why on earth did they omit items and forget to tell the ATF and throw away documents...... :banghead:

I hate the thought of having to go to the nation retail stores here for firearms... no more unique guns coming and going, no more exotics to handle and dream over....... :banghead:

Hope they can get it all worked out..... Another store here had the same problem three or so years ago with the ATF and they had to close..... no loss there they were as crooked as crooked can be.... so no one misses them .... but REDS!!!!!

 

[Sisco]

You've got to wonder with business practices like that how did they stay open long enough to become one of Idaho's oldest?

 

[vis-à-vis]

That sucks.

 

[cosermann]

The process is so complicated there are bound to be errors now and then. They claim 1% or less. Who knows?

The point is, since we Americans have allowed this sort of activity to be LICENSED dealers sell at the whim of the licensing "authority."

If they ATF one day decides an error rate of 0.001% is too large they'll yank a lot of licenses and that will be that.

The idea that a right can be regulated in any way is a slippery slope to no rights at all.

Here's an interesting article:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_150_25/ai_67886006

 

[bruss01]

I'm sorry to hear about this.

If Red's has been in business for a long time, they should know the rules. Selling guns is serious business. If you don't believe that then ask the ATF. Filling out the forms is tedious and they don't try to make it simple. It is all too human to make a mistake, and the standard set is very unforgiving. Reds should not be having to deal with this, I agree the regs and the enforcement are unreasonable. Having said that, anyone who sells guns these days had better dot every I and cross every T or they're going to be in hot water or out of business in no time.

It's time to reform the ATF. If Bush was so hot to fire 93 US attorney's I'd like to see him get fired up about replacing EVERY HIGH RANKING POSITION at the ATF. That would send a message.

 

[45/70]

Running paperwork for gun sales is nor more difficult than running a balance on a cash register. You run 100% and you run it 100% of the time, or you're going to be out of business.

 

[Cosmoline]

The feds have INTENTIONALLY created a system so complex and with so many steps required that any major outfit is bound to have some errors. This then gives the jackboots the ability to close down anyone they want to.

Running paperwork for gun sales is nor more difficult than running a balance on a cash register

Yeah, and spelling is "nor" more difficult. I'm afraid you've lost your license to write, 45/70 ;-)

 

[RTFM]

^^^ Ouch..
Just goes to show that a single errors can and do happen, but my gosh I'm losing my "crack dealer.....

 

[thorn726]

The feds have INTENTIONALLY created a system so complex and with so many steps required that any major outfit is bound to have some errors. This then gives the jackboots the ability to close down anyone they want to.

while that may be true, these are not those types of errors. these are lazy errors.

admits when the business sold guns it sometimes left blank required parts of a gun purchase form, omitted a background check on a special order,failed to log multiple handgun sales to the same customer in five working days, did not keep track of guns returned to manufacturers, threw away denied applications dealers are required to keep for 20 years and failed to post a gun safety sign and pamphlets.

i'm sorry you lose your shop, but more sorry another dealer makes us all look bad

 

[MrPeter]

The feds have INTENTIONALLY created a system so complex and with so many steps required that any major outfit is bound to have some errors. This then gives the jackboots the ability to close down anyone they want to.

Running paperwork for gun sales is nor more difficult than running a balance on a cash register

Yeah, and spelling is "nor" more difficult. I'm afraid you've lost your license to write, 45/70 ;-)

I have worked retail before, and I have ran the balance, or closed, cash registers all the darn time, and guess what? I have made mistakes before. The guys at my Sheriff's office have been running a month late on their CPL's because someone was sick (or someother hogwash). If the only people capable of handling firearms (police) are fallable in such ways, then god help us! The streets will run red when the first incompetent civilian gets their hands on...
What?! You say you have a 1911 strapped to your waist right now? Oh lordy, we're doomed.

 

[Geno]

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. We should force the government, at all levels, to comply with the same degree of accuracy. Bye bye FBI. Seen the news lately on their screw-ups?!?!?!? And, let's not even discuss the unpaid traffic tickets by Obama, et. al...from how many years back?! Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

 

[IdahoFarmer]

Horrible. If we ever lost Cliff's Guns Safes and Reloading here in the Boise area I think I might have a heart attack.

Any chance Red's might be able to resume business or reapply for their license after a brief hiatus?


Farmer

 

[RTFM]

thorn726 ...i'm sorry you lose your shop, but more sorry another dealer makes us all look bad

Very true!


I'll drop by there this weekend and see what they have to say in person.....

And I'd rather know I've purchased for an "up and up" dealer than some one that could potentially cause my purchase to be null.

 

[skyder]

Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear of Red's closing. I lived in Twin Falls back when I was supposed to be growing up. Friends and I would go in there and buy small bottles of mercury to play with (rub into coins, etc.) That was before the stuff was declared poisonous and mere sight of it would kill you and your dog.
I still have a Pellet gun somewhere in the collection that I bought there a long time ago.
This was back in the '50s and '60s, long before most of the gun laws and the BATFE, when a teen could hold his .22 rifle across the handlebars and ride through suburbia to a shooting place without being arrested by a swat team.

sigh

 

[Standing Wolf]

Where does it say all that in the Second Amendment?

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Less than 1% isn't very much. Pretty much ANY paperwork has a margin of error since humans work on the dang stuff and given long enough, you'll get mistakes. I bet you can find higher rates of error on government work

The fact is they can nitpick on anything and deem a 4473 as invalid...things like abbreviating something like a state. Crossing out a mistake and forgetting to initial and date the change, etc. Its not like the store was unloading guns out the back door to gangbangers and whatnot...

At least I assume they didn't since they operated for three generations without having the fuzz come down on them before.

 

[Kali Endgame]

It took the ATFE over three years since the last error to bust them? Wow, glad to know they take that long to bust legitimate businesses. Criminals probably have a ten year grace period.

 

[ranger335v]

The BAT men suk

Sorry to hear that the family has effectively lost its business and livelyhood but I guess it's one of the sacrifices we the people have to make so the BATF agents can justify their existance. They being "public servants" and defenders of the people you know, saving us all from dastardly criminals, etc. NOT.

(Always wondered if having married parents would disqualify them from the job?)

 

[bender]

The gun stores that I buy at are really anal about everything on the form being absolutely perfect...

for example, if I use the 2-letter state abbreviation for my address (TX) they make me change it to "Texas". If I leave a line blank that I am not supposed to answer (for example: "If you answered Yes to the above question, then you must answer this question..."). If I did not answer Yes to the above question, I leave the next question blank... but the dealers here make me write "N/A" in it anway...

 

[bogie]

If Bush was so hot to fire 93 US attorney's I'd like to see him get fired up about replacing EVERY HIGH RANKING POSITION at the ATF.

Typical. Everything is either Bush's fault, or by association, any Republican. That's getting REALLY tired.

And if I recall correctly, Gonzales' bunch canned eight of 'em... And if I _also_ recall correctly, when Clinton was in, with Janet Reno at the helm, he replaced 'em ALL. Not just eight.

Sounds like that gun store got into the complacement habit of thinking that it was a hobby, and since they were selling guns to "nice" people, like hunters, etc., they didn't worry as much as they should have.

F-Troop will screw you just has hard if you hose the paperwork on a H&H double rifle as it will for screwing up a transfer for a Lorcin.

 

[DWARREN123]

Maybe a fatal self inflicted wound or may be BATFE is hunting for little things.

 

[jim d]

When it comes to filling out the 4473form the things that you can and can not do will be dicated by the ATF&E inspector that is working the area that you are selling guns in. I know this to be a true fact as I sold firearms here in Calif. and have delt with the inspectors and each one of them has told me different things pretaining to the 4473. But if you think ATF&E is bad you should listen to the conflicting things that the Calif. DOJ inspectors say. I am sure glad that I retired and no longer have to sign my name on any forms anymore.

 

[Ala Dan]

Yep, the BATFE does not play; everything must be in order~!

 

[Dorryn]

Sounds like that gun store got into the complacement habit of thinking that it was a hobby, and since they were selling guns to "nice" people, like hunters, etc., they didn't worry as much as they should have.

You know, because so many criminals attempt to buy from long-established gun stores hoping for complacency despite the fact that background checks are the law...

 

[foob]

The idea that a right can be regulated in any way is a slippery slope to no rights at all.

Right to bear arms, no right to sell arms. Blame the way the amendment was written. Or not.

And if I recall correctly, Gonzales' bunch canned eight of 'em... And if I _also_ recall correctly, when Clinton was in, with Janet Reno at the helm, he replaced 'em ALL. Not just eight.

Actually, Gonzales lied about it (Said he had nothing to do with the Justice department decision). Luckily he wasn't under oath, so it's just political ammo for the Democrats and not some criminal matter.

Anyway, both Reagan and Clinton fired all the prosecutors when they entered office. I'm tired of the B-B-But Clinton rule, especially when the circumstances are different.

It is very different from what Bush did, which allegedly is where he selected prosecutors in midterm who refused to listen to Republicans pressuring them to investigate democrate corruption and stop investigating republican corruption. Do you want a Democrat white house doing the same? Corruption is corruption, prosecutors should be investigating them with no prejudice or party bias.