My own desert o' truth. 9mm ammo test.

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cowssurf

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Inspired by the wonderful website, boxotruth.com, I decided to do my own experiments out in the vast Utah desert. I brought along 20 gallon-sized milk jugs filled with water. I wanted to test some Fiocchi 9mm JHP self-defense ammo. I've been hoping the Fiocchi self-defense ammo is good because at Cabela's a box of fifty costs the same as a box of 25 Remington Golden Saber in 9mm. To those mathmeticians out there, that's half the price. They look cool when you open the box. Fiocchi's supposed to be a good Italian ammo maker.

So here's how the test went. I lined up six jugs of water (I figured that would be enough since the Box O' Truth experiments didn't need more than 5 for various pistol rounds). I loaded up a Fiocchi 9mm 147 grain JHP XTP and shot it. Water was leaking onto the desert floor as my friend and I approached to assess the damage. It had penetrated into four jugs and stuck to the backside of the fourth jug, partially piercing the back wall where it was stuck. We drained the water. I popped the bullet out of it's plastic nest in the jug and shook it into my hand. It had expanded very nicely and uniformly, with the metal jacket still attached to the lead core. I wish I had taken some pictures like the Box O' Truth, but I didn't even think about it. We decided to try the same round to see if the results would be similar. They were nearly identical. The round pierced into 4 jugs again, slammed against the back wall of the fourth jug, partially piercing the plastic, but instead of being lodged in that spot, it had bounced off and was resting in the bottom of the leaking jug. I drained the jug and inspected the bullet. The same good expansion as the last. I guess I'll now have to try the ammo with some cloth in front like the Box O' Truth to test expansion through clothing. Also, I'd like to test other grain weights and ammo brands. Unfortunately, I'm not made of a whole lot of money, so here's my open invitation to THR members. Do your own gallon jug experiments with various rounds and report back to us all. I think it would be an interesting repository of information. I'll continue posting results from my experiments. One thing I wish the Box O' Truth was more consistent about is naming the exact ammo brand and bullet style along with the all-important grain weight. (Still I highly recommend the Box O' Truth to everyone. It is a fantastic website.) By the way, I also fired a Federal blunt nosed FMJ 147 grain target round. It blasted through the six jugs I had lined up and landed somewhere in the desert. We also tried a 115 gr WWB FMJ, but my friends aim was a little off, and it went out the side of a jug. Anyone already have similar experiments to report on? Please share.
 
Dude, you might have to be patient. It's before five o' clock on a weekday. People will respond, but they've gotta get out of work first.

Dude, what are you talking about? He/she waited the full 26 minutes that is required before BTTing it.
 
Cowssurf,
Thanks for sharing that with us.
I'm excited Fiocchi is loading the XTP now as the ones from Hornady tend to be expensive.
I shoot 9mm also and found your test interesting.
 
Dude.....

I've wanted to try this. Might have to save up some jugs. Although, since I don't drink milk, I accumulate OJ jugs rapidly.
 
"I was trained in firearms. I’d walk to the hospital when my husband was sick. I carried a concealed weapon. I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out, I was going to take them with me." --Senator Dianne Feinstein

Where did you get that quote, and is it true?
 
Thanks for sharing your tests. It sounds like you're getting mighty good, consistent performance out of that ammo. So I wouldn't hesitate to stick with it, as long as your gun likes it!

I haven't done a great amount of jug testing myself because I can't get to my testing area in a vehicle with a load of water jugs. (Those babies are heavy! A half-mile walk through the woods wouldn't be feasible with an armload of 'em. :D )
 
The problem is that water is not the same as living tissue. Such a test might have some use if comparing two loads side by side but you only shot the one load. So it passes through 4 jugs of water and expands in that media. How does that translate to shooting a living target? Do you know it will expand in tissue? The 147 grain 9mms are notorious for non-expansion in people.

Hps are reputed to get plugged by cloth and fail to expand. Did you shoot the jugs through layers of clothing?

Only two rounds fired? I understand ammo is expensive but you're talking about your life, here. I think a little more testing might be in order.

As for me, I settled long ago on the 115 JHP +P+ by either federal or Winchester for my carry 9mm. Both clock 1250 FPS from my M659 and the tests by professional sources indicate these loads perform well in real life.

Why do want the 147 grain bullet? IMO too heavy for the caliber. The 9x19 was designed around the 115 grain bullet and I think this is still the best balance between speed and mass for the caliber.
 
My son & I tried that same set of tests with 9mm (FMJ's and HP's), .45ACP (same), .30-30Win. thru a Marlin 336, 5.56x45 from an AR-15 (FMJ's & Ballistic Tip varmint) and - my personal favorite - a 12ga. slug from my Rem. 870 DeerSlayer-style barrel. The FMJ's just punch holes and the water drains out but the all of the rest of our shooting simply vaporized the 1st several jugs.

P.S. 00 Buck did the same as the H.P.'s and slug except not as deep.


What a riot filming that action! :what:
 
Dude...

A friend like loaded up some 204 Rugers with some Varminator bullets from Barnes, and like DUDE you should have seen the explosion!

If that chuck could have spoke wow that would have been some serious cussin!

The blood mist was like on a spring day in Ireland as the sun rose and just got you "a bit" wet. They call it "pissin rain". I'm not sure what you would call it with blood.
 
"Where did you get that quote, and is it true?"

Chris, I got that quote off the internet, so I think that establishes that it's true. Jesting aside, I've read that quote in a number of places, and I have no reason to believe it to be false. I believe it was referring to a time in the 70s or 80s when she lived in San Francisco (perhaps she still does?). She was one of a very select few people who had a CFP in San Francisco. It is the epitome of hypocrisy, is it not?
 
Remember that bullets will expand better in water than they will gel, and they will expand better in gel than they will in flesh.

Still thanks for sharing.
 
Hey SaxonPig, let me respond to your post a little.

"The problem is that water is not the same as living tissue."

I figured as much myself.

"Such a test might have some use if comparing two loads side by side"

That's precisely why I wanted to do it. That and to see expansion. The water jugs offer at least some consistency in the obviously not scientific experiment. I can't afford ballistic gelatin.

"but you only shot the one load."

Not only can I not afford ballistic gelatin, I can't afford a bunch of different ammo types and brands. It will be an ongoing project. Also, I invited others to share their experiments to gain a collective knowledge. Also, if you read my whole post, you would notice that I shot three loads.

"So it passes through 4 jugs of water and expands in that media. How does that translate to shooting a living target?"

I don't know. I've never shot somebody.

"Do you know it will expand in tissue?"

I don't know. I've never shot somebody.

"The 147 grain 9mms are notorious for non-expansion in people."

Really? That sucks.

"Hps are reputed to get plugged by cloth and fail to expand."

I knew that one.

"Did you shoot the jugs through layers of clothing?"

Did you read my whole post?

"Only two rounds fired? I understand ammo is expensive but you're talking about your life, here. I think a little more testing might be in order."

I agree, hence the invitation. As far as the number of rounds tested, though, it's not so much the ammo that's prohibitive, it's the water jugs. I have my sister and her many kids save all their empty jugs, as well as saving the ones my family uses, but it still only amounts to so many. I shot until all the jugs were pierced.

"As for me, I settled long ago on the 115 JHP +P+ by either federal or Winchester for my carry 9mm."

Good for you. I'd like to get some milk jug test results from those rounds to compare. If anyone has done them, or you want to, let's post and share the info.

"Both clock 1250 FPS from my M659"

That's fast.

"And the tests by professional sources indicate these loads perform well in real life."

Sounds like they are good bullets.

"Why do [you] want the 147 grain bullet?"

From all the info I've read (FBI gelatin tests, LEO issue ammo, reports from the field) the 147 grain in 9mm has the best consistent penetration. As a matter of fact, that is usually the case for all major calibers--namely 158 gr in .357, 185 gr in .40, and 230 gr in .45, on AVERAGE, penetrate better than lesser weights in each respective caliber.

"IMO too heavy for the caliber."

IMO it's not.

"The 9x19 was designed around the 115 grain bullet"

I didn't know that.

"and I think this is still the best balance between speed and mass for the caliber."

I don't care about speed. I care about penetration.

I hope people don't think that I think I've done the definitive study on Fiocchi 9mm 147 grain JHP XTP ammunition. I certainly don't claim to have done that. I just think it's interesting to collect as much data as possible about ballistics.
 
MinnMooney, hey that's great. If you have any info, (e.g., you remember how many jugs were penetrated, grain weight in certain rounds, etc.) I'd love to know it.
 
I don't know. I've never shot somebody.


That is a good thing. But at the same time. Many ammo companies do conduct both tests in gel, and live animal testing. Check them out before you set on a round.

Live animal testing is about as good as you can get for a test bed. Dead animal testing is better than gel, but still not as good as live.
 
cowssurf - while hollowpoints may (or may not) get plugged up by material, they still have one important difference from FMJ - even plugged up, they're still flatter in cross section in relation to elastic and semi-elastic fluid mass like flesh.

FMJ goes through meat but it's streamlined. Hollowpoints are less so. Colonel Cooper and legendary hunter Ross Seyfreid (or Seyfried) were big proponents of flat-pointed rounds for doing damage. Many studies with early .40 S&W FMJ rounds, which were flat points, and the .41 Police round as designed by Elmer Keith ended up being more effective than round nosed, full metal jacket.

Expansion is gravy for cutting more permanent damage in meat, but unless bone is struck, you won't get a .451 inch hole from a .45 ACP round in hardball format.
 
I have never in my short (41 year) life heard of an ammo company testing with live critters. Could someone point me to a source? I'd like to read through some of the data. In the meantime, I'll google it myself, but my net-fu lacks discipline and focus.

The guy on Box-O-Truth gives a ratio of waterjugs-to-gel. I don't remember what it is, but I have no reason to doubt his assertion.
 
Penetration in water will be about 1.6 to 2.0 times as deep as in calibrated ballistic gelatin. So jugs are like 6" wide? 4 jugs = 24" water, which means 12" to 15" in jello. Good performance.

I guess I'll now have to try the ammo with some cloth in front like the Box O' Truth to test expansion through clothing.

You definitely should. The 4-layer denim test is what seperates the men from the boys. Very, very few of the "cheap" hollowpoints will expand more reliably than about 50% of the time through denim, and even some of the premium brands (particularly some calibers/weights of Hornady XTP, and Federal Hydra-Shok) do poorly.

----------------

I have never in my short (41 year) life heard of an ammo company testing with live critters. Could someone point me to a source? I'd like to read through some of the data. In the meantime, I'll google it myself, but my net-fu lacks discipline and focus.

X-treme Flaming Farts did some tests with live swine, on video, and made the DVD available some years back. They got a lot of flak from PETA over that.
 
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