My probably soon-to-be classic Primitive Weapons Season rant.

[JWarren]

I am sick of it.

I realize the whole point of primative weapons season. I do get it.

And I still think it is nuts.

Some of us simply do NOT enjoy archery/black powder/ other primative weapons.

There ARE some people that just don't get a lot of time to hunt. When you DO get some time in your schedule, you SHOULD be able to hunt if that animal is in season.

But hold on...

That's not my BIG rant.


Here is MS we are now allowed to use certain cased, smokeless powder firearms.

The law is that:

-the cartridge has to have been made over 100 years ago.
-the case has to be straight-walled.
-the firearm must be a breach load.
-any optics are allowed.


That makes it pretty much that you can get a Sharps-style rifle in 45-70 to use in primative weapons season.

That's great, right? Yep. I have to buy one.

But that shows the hypocrisy of primative weapons season in this state now.

Why that particular format?

The 30-06 is over 100 years old. But I can't use it-- it isn't straight-walled.
Same with the 8mm mauser.

Which brings me to the firearm. The bolt action is over 100 years old. Why shouldn't we be able to use a mauser or mosin nagant or even a 1903 Springfield?

That's right... gotta be a breach load.

The SPIRIT of the law is in question.

EVEN with an H&R 45-70, we have people mounting Leupold VX-III's and taking shots like it is any other season. Is THAT the spirit of primative weapons season?

And let's forget about those for a second....

Muzzleloaders.


When you have an in-line muzzleloader using jacketed sabot bullets, and you load it with compressed black-powder cakes, are you REALLY doing it like Davie Crocket?

And you still have that Leupold VX-III on top.

It simply ISN'T primative weapons. It ISN'T following what I'd consider the SPIRIT of the very reason that we HAVE a primative weapons season.

So if that is the case, why the HELL are they FORCING me to buy a gun that I don't want and tears up a LOT of meat (45-70 does a lot of damage to our little puppy-deer) if I want to hunt in the 4 weeks of the season that they only allow primative weapons?

If we are going to bend the spirit of the law to this degree, we should simply do away with it!


/Flame-suit on.


-- John

 

[ArmedBear]

(45-70 does a lot of damage to our little puppy-deer)

What kind of bullets are you using, and at what velocity?

RNL at original velocities should go straight through.

That said, your point is well-taken. I go the other way, though.

If inlines are allowed, a single shot .45-70 should be, but I'd say if and only if the propellant is BP or a true BP substitute. Shooting a BP .45-70 Sharps is indeed primitive. No scopes should be allowed except for the legitimately visually impaired.

I would, however, favor sidelocks only, percussion cap or flint ignition only, and again no scopes.

IMO, rather than turning primitive season into rifle season, turn it into a real primitive season, like some states in the Northwest have done.

That is assuming that deer are not overpopulated. If they are, hell, open it up to whatever weapons. I'm talking about sparser deer populations that need to be managed to allow more hunters to at least get a shot at one.

But WRT the fact that you don't like the timing, well, hell I'd rather hunt in May. So what?

 

[JWarren]

What kind of bullets are you using, and at what velocity?

No idea the velocity, but Dad is using 333 grain factory loads (Remington, I think)

I go the other way, though.

Actually, I can as well. My point was that the current situation in my state is that the SPIRIT of primative weapons season no longer exists here.

I'd have much less room to complain if the law and the spirit of that law coincided.

As I see it, we are either primative, or we aren't. I don't really see the point of keeping me from being modern when we are in "modern primative weapons" season.

If inlines are allowed, a single shot .45-70 should be

You and I are in agreement... I'd say that neither inlines or breach load 45-70's follow the spirit of primative weapons season.

No scopes should be allowed except for the legitimately visually impaired.

Again, I think we are in agreement regarding the spirit of the law.

IMO, rather than turning primitive season into rifle season, turn it into a real primitive season, like some states in the Northwest have done.

That would take the meat out of my criticisms. It is consistent with what I thought primative weapons season was supposed to be.

That is assuming that deer are not overpopulated. If they are, hell, open it up to whatever weapons.

Again, full agreement on my part with your view.

But WRT the fact that you don't like the timing, well, hell I'd rather hunt in May. So what?

I didn't catch the "WRT" Please explain if you don't mind.

Oh, I agree with you on that. What I was trying to say is that I could reluctantly accept the timing if we following the spirit of the law. As it is, if we are going to have a "modern primative weapons" season, we may as well not have one and let us hunt as we choose.

But let me say this...

I DO disagee with the notion of a primative weapons season-- especially in a situation where deer are plentiful.

No one is preventing the person who CHOOSES to hunt with primative weapons during the entire season if they want to. However, there is a period of time that I am FORCED to use primative weapons. As I see it, if a person wants to hunt with primative weapons all the time, that is their choice. If populations are not an issue, it should be my choice not to hunt with primative weapons.


-- John

 

[H&Hhunter]

The most bestest MS "primitive" season rifle I could possibly think of !!

http://www.csharpsarms.com/1885_highwall_sporting.php

 

[Deer Hunter]

Agreed.

Our inline breech loading muzzleloaders are just as advanced as the bolt action rifles we use during rifle season. Bow hunting, yes I can see that being a "primative" weapon, but why not the crossbow then? Nope, you have to have a permit to hunt with a crossbow, and the only way you can get that is by showing that you are incapable of drawing back a composit bow.

 

[AKGuy]

....awwww...no offense, OP, but when I read "primitive weapons hunt" I thought that this was gonna be a thread regarding those hardcore folks who hunt pigs and bears and deer with swords and such...or at least bowhunting...whatta disappointment. The folks I've described are the ones who make me scratch my head and wonder wth?!

 

[AKGuy]

...my point is B-O-R-I-N-G compared to what I was all excited about maybe reading for the two seconds that it took for the page/thread to load...sigh...

 

[ArmedBear]

Remington factory 300 grain .45-70 is a jacketed hollowpoint at a relatively high velocity. That would sure mess up a deer.

Those rounds are lever gun rounds, AFAIK. Single shots allow many more options.

A cast round nose lead bullet going under 1500 at the muzzle will drop a buffalo in one shot. Not only that, it will go right through. It doesn't need to expand; it's already big enough.

I'd suggest that. Use smokeless if you want, but see if you can do an original-style .45-70 load. It'll drop a deer without blowing the thing apart. Just be careful of what's behind the deer. Seriously.

A bullet doesn't need to go fast to pack a wallop, and energy doesn't matter all that much unless you're shooting a high-velocity, small-caliber spitzer like a .30-06.

 

[ArmedBear]

"WRT" this:

get a lot of time to hunt. When you DO get some time in your schedule, you SHOULD be able to hunt if that animal is in season.

But I was just ribbing you. Please don't take that part of the post seriously.

 

[monkyboy1975]

Try a 38-55, straight walled and over a hundred years old. plus less meat damage.

 

[SwearNoAllegiance]

Screw the gov't. Hunt how you want and feed your family, I say.

 

[JWarren]

ArmedBear,

No, I clueless on the ""WRT." What is that acronym? I figured it was ribbing, but its not fun for you or me if I don't know how bad I got ribbed. Kinda like the last time I told my dog a joke. It wagged its tail, but I think that it wanted a doggie bisquit.


I really need to have a chat with Dad on those bullets. I see your point exactly. We are all pretty new around her on the 45-70. It was last year that the law got changed, and everyone ran out to get a 45-70 even though none of us ever had a use for one before.

So this is season #2 for them here, and I've been paying attention to the results. I'll spread the word.


-- John

 

[Lonestar.45]

Agreed.

I bowhunt, and have a muzzle loader, and rifle hunt.

My two cents (for what it's worth):

Optics have no place in a primative hunting season, period.

Inline muzzleloaders have no place.

No cartridge firearms of any kind have a place in such a season.

That's just me. Even a compound bow with all the latest gadgetry requires you to be within 35-40 yds max. Open sights and muzzleloaders require you to really be within 100yds or less. When a hunter can take 150 and 200 yd shots and be pretty much assured of success (45-70's with VX-III's? are you kidding?), in my mind that completely violates the spirit of the primitive firearms seasons.

 

[thertel]

I read the title and though this would be about spears, atlatls, non-compound bows, tackling the deer and using a knife, or simply running them off a cliff. That is primative hunting, this other crap with guns is not even close to primative.

Now where do I have to go for spear season.

 

[Art Eatman]

WRT: With respect to...

One point: "Here is MS we are now allowed to use certain cased, smokeless powder firearms." That says to me that another method has been added to the definition of "primitive". That sounds like increasing one's options. Anytime goobermint increases one's options, I call it Good.

As for ruining meat, don't shoot the meat. There are plenty of other parts of a deer which are available. Me, I prefer the white spot.

 

[ArmedBear]

I prefer the white spot.

With a .45-70, you probably COULD just shoot the tail.

 

[JWarren]

I prefer the white spot.

LOL... Dad did that once on an 8 point!

It never gave him the "perfect" side profile he wanted, an then all of a sudden, it spooked. As it was running, buck fevor got him and he shot.

It hit all the guts, and hit the vitals. It dropped him dead and ruined exactly ZERO meat.

I wouldn't try that, but it did work for him once when I was a kid.



-- John

 

[pbearperry]

If someone gave me an inline smokepole ,I would sell it.I like the old school route.

 

[geo57]

Here in Nebraska, I wish our muzzleloader season included those " primitive " weapons allowed in MS, and certain other states, and I've written our Game & Parks Comm. to consider it. My only request to modify it, would be not allowing any scopes, red dots, electronic type sighting gizmos, etc, of any kind. Open sights only.
As far as this business about ruining venison with bullets from 45-70's,
I'm a devout 45-70 fan and have harvested quite a few deer with it. I am a big fan of shooing them through the lungs a few inches above the heart. ( Don't wana ruin that heart. Pickled and pressure cooked, makes fine eating. ) However, I once , because of the shot angle he gave, had to shoot a large buck in a facing shoulder. This was still when I was handloading 300 grain JHP's @ 1700 FPS. Not a shot glass full of meat was lost from him due to that shot. I now load a 405 grain JSP @ trapdoor velocity, and this year my shot broke a shoulder going out. The meat lost from that shot would not have filled a thimble. Bloodshot meat was not an issue in either case.

 

[moosehunt]

There is a bow season, and only bows are allowed. I like the "primative weapons" season or as most places call it (apparently not MS) muzzle loader season. BUT, I feel the spirit of the season has to a great degree been lost, and see logic for the argument of rifle hunters that is not right. I feel a muzzle loader season should be limited to sidelocks (cap or flint), black powder only, no sabots (preferably round ball only), no scopes or light assisted sights. Anotherwords, make it primative. And I greatly applaud those states that require you to choose which season you hunt--bow, muzzle loader, or rifle. One only! It shouldn't be simply an opertunity for some to get an extra season to get a deer (or elk). The argument about using the muzzle loader during rifle season is partially logical, but if my above suggestion were followed, I justify a muzzle loading season (and a bow season, though of no interest to me). I hunted moose in Maine during the regular season (there isn't a special bow or muzzle loader season) with .58 cal round ball and black powder caplock because I chose to. Got a nice 56 incher, too.