My reasons for wanting a thumb safety

[-v-]

My $0.02 cents on the issue is this:

On spring guns and SA guns I like a safety. It gives me piece of mind with the light and short trigger pulls that these firearms exhibit. I always have the fear that something will catch on the trigger, and before I realize it, the firearm will go bang into my leg. Plus, most SA guns had an easy flip-down safety, that could be disengaged quite easily while drawing the weapon, and if you're in a position to holster it, the threat has passed and you can take the time to use your off-hand to re-engage it.

On DA/SA or DAO firearms with a long trigger pull I am ok without having a safety. In my mind both the weight of the trigger and the length of the pull both seem as a good deterrent to a AD/ND as you'll notice that something is dragging the trigger before the device goes "Bang!"

 

[Marshall]

They rely on a trigger safety similar to that used by Glock, a grip safety like the 1911, and a firing-pin block operated by the other two.

At some point, enough is enough. I mean, really now. No pully on the boom switch and no go bang bang anyway. The way the whole gun operates is one of the most appealing things about it. Chamber a round, have a full mag and the gun is reay to shoot without having to jack with anything. Simplicity is a virtue with this gun. With night sights this is probably one of the best nightstand semi-auto's there is for this reason alone. Simplicity of a revolver with the advantages of an autoloader. Keep the thumb saftey off this gun.

 

[Old Dog]

It is surely only coincidence that the highest percentages of negligent discharges in the hands of the largest segment of gun-packing persons -- law enforcement (ostensibly with a higher level of training also) -- occur with Glock pistols.

Swiping off a frame-mounted thumb safety causes no appreciable time delay in the semi-auto pistol manual of arms. As we live in a litigious, politically polarized culture, with attorneys and anti-gun folk who feign to understand the issue of manual safeties on firearms, opting to own firearms with safeties is an exercise in pragmatism. A non-issue for many of us, why judge someone for one's preference for or against manual safeties?

 

[BlindJustice]

different strokes for different folks.

I have a 1911 full size in .45 ACP. I've been shopping for a
9MM and the CZ75B will be my next handgun acquisition. The
reason for 9MM? Economy at the range WHy the CZ75B
* All steel construction, & similiar trigger design with a rep
for reliability and accuracy with the slide inside the frame.
* DA -OR- SA Cocked & Locked pretty much the same Manual
of arms or DA for the first shot with the thumb safety off since
it is not operable withthe Hammer down. If the weapon is drawn
and fired in the field, when a pause comes just pUt the thumb safety
on and reholster or carry at port arms.

 

[harbingerm]

Geez, these guns in proper working order are NOT just going to "go off".

Plus, consider what's already been mentioned about people training a ton and getting "used" to flipping the safety off. Well, what do you think is going to happen if/when you NEED that gun? It will be in your hand, safety off, and you probably wouldn't even realize it because it's muscle memory and ingrained at that point. Same thing if you grabbed it in sleep/zombie mode... In this case, safety/no safety...doesn't matter. There may be some minute merit that a bad guy who takes the gun away won't know how to manipulate the safety, but I doubt it. People tend to think criminals are idiots and not capable of any sort of higher thought. I'd be willing to bet in a millisecond after pulling the trigger and the gun doesn't fire, they'll be looking right at the left/rear area of the slide and simply snick that safety right off.

 

[CJ]

Ok, just because it's right for YOU doesn't mean you should force your views on everyone else. I'd have hoped people had learned that from watching the anti approach and trying to force everyone to conform to THEIR views.

Mr. Whipple, go with what YOU feel comfortable with. There isn't a right or wrong here, otherwise you wouldn't have a choice and you'd only have the perfect one available. This doesn't just go for safeties, it goes for holster choices, carry conditions (e.g. one in the chamber or not), and on...or whether you even choose to carry.

I applaud your effort at starting the discussion, but I wish people would address your questions/issues rather than try to force their opinions on you.

As for the 'keep you finger off the trigger' solution, search for a number of situations such as NDs where a piece of clothing got caught in the trigger guard while re-holstering.

I think of a safety as sort of a...well..safety, serving a similar function to a seatbelt. I'm not going to get into a crash to test out my seatbelt, but I'll be happy if it saves me in a bad situation. Similarly, I wouldn't test a safety on my gun, but if it prevents a bad situation, great.

 

[harbingerm]

If you cause a gun to go off when re-holstering and want a mechanical safety to prevent that, you seriously need more practice/training.

 

[Lonestar49]

In a nutshell

Quote: It is surely only coincidence that the highest percentages of negligent discharges in the hands of the largest segment of gun-packing persons -- law enforcement (ostensibly with a higher level of training also) -- occur with Glock pistols.

Swiping off a frame-mounted thumb safety causes no appreciable time delay in the semi-auto pistol manual of arms. As we live in a litigious, politically polarized culture, with attorneys and anti-gun folk who feign to understand the issue of manual safeties on firearms, opting to own firearms with safeties is an exercise in pragmatism. A non-issue for many of us, why judge someone for one's preference for or against manual safeties?
-------------------
...

+1 for Old Dog


Wuff Wuff.. (interpretation: here - here )


Ls

 

[searcher451]

My daily carry gun is a Walther PPK/S. I carry it for a lot of reasons: It conceals well and readily, I am comfortable with it from years of use, I am accurate with it, and it has a thumb safety on it. Call me old-fashioned, but I appreciate the added safety factor.

 

[harbingerm]

That's because the LEOs lacked the PROPER training and practice with Glocks. Follow the four rules and you'll NEVER have an ND. Simple enough?

Also, don't ever assume that a LEO whose department makes him qual once or twice a year is "highly trained". I know I shoot a LOT more than most LEOs, including the ones in my family of which I have first hand knowledge of their "high quality training". Real whiz bang shots at the range, too...

Having a manual safety to prevent NDs is like having safety lever on a folding knife to prevent it from "accidentally" opening. Hey, it juuuust might prevent an accident, right? The point isn't to add mechanical "things" for safety. The point is to learn to operate your instrument of choice PROPERLY! Simply put, don't have "accidents"!

 

[CJ]

Gee harbingerm, I admire how perfect and perfectly trained people are in your world! How there are never extenuating circumstances! If people were taught to drive properly, we wouldn't need seatbelts either! (edit to note: sorry, seatbelts are a bad analogy here...we don't NEED safeties, but they're not the pariah that so many make them out to be...I just can't come up with a better one at the moment).

And by the way, the 4 rules do NOT prevent NDs. They keep you, and everyone around you safe, in the event of an ND.

1) All guns are always loaded!
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy!
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target!1
4) Always be sure of your target!

The case of a jacket tie getting caught inside the trigger guard is not prevented by any of these.

 

[harbingerm]

My daily carry gun is a Walther PPK/S. I carry it for a lot of reasons: It conceals well and readily, I am comfortable with it from years of use, I am accurate with it, and it has a thumb safety on it. Call me old-fashioned, but I appreciate the added safety factor.

I love my PPK/s, too, but that god awful long and HARD double action trigger on the first shot is more than safety enough for me! Many revolvers (no mechanical safeties at all) have much lighter and smoother triggers. Never hear of them "just going off".

 

[harbingerm]

And by the way, the 4 rules do NOT prevent NDs. They keep you, and everyone around you safe, in the event of an ND.

1) All guns are always loaded!
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy!
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target!1
4) Always be sure of your target!

Um, run that by me again, CJ, will ya? Just exactly HOW following all four rules will still NOT prevent NDs?

As for the "jacket tie" thing, hey, note to self... How about doing a proper clothing sweep and NOT allow something to get in the trigger guard, mmmmK? It takes one second to look down and visually verify the holster is clear. Please spare me any LEO, military, mall ninja, etc scenarios you were in and had exactly two milliseconds and didn't have the time to visually verify. Sure, if you had to pull the gun, you might be shaken up, but when it's time to re-holster, the threat is OVER and speed is NOT of the necessity at that point. Simply following rule #1 and ALWAYS being aware of it, you won't let that trigger get pulled for ANY reason.

 

[CJ]

Um, run that by me again, CJ, will ya? Just exactly HOW following all four rules will still NOT prevent NDs?

All righty, let's use the incident I mentioned where an officer experience a ND while holstering a pistol, resulting from a jacket pull being inside the trigger guard while re-holstering.

1) All guns are always loaded! Yep, it was loaded, he knew that which was, in fact, why he had it out in the first place.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy! Lucky guy, it was pointed at the ground and not at himself or anyone else.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target! Yeppers, no finger on the trigger!
4) Always be sure of your target! I think this is more covered by #1 in this case, but fortunately the ground made an excellent backstop.

So, all rules followed still resulting in an ND, but BECAUSE the rules were followed, no one was injured.

 

[harbingerm]

Well, I guess ya just can't fix stupid, then... Your officer was completely unaware of what was happening with his Glock. Had he treated the gun as if it were ALWAYS loaded, he'd have a little more respect for it and situational awareness concerning handling a gun out of his direct line of vision.

Ya wanna know what's really strange? I've carried Glocks for darn near 15 years and holster/re-holster on virtually a daily basis and have NEVER come close to having an ND for any reason. And, I'm just a little ol' "regular" civilian with a couple of courses under my belt. Heck, according to you with my vastly inferior non-LEO training, the floors in my house should look like Swiss cheese by now. I live in a very cold, snowy climate, too and I've never even had any tactical training in my high usage of jacket to gun carry ratio, either.

 

[CJ]

As for the "jacket tie" thing, hey, note to self... How about doing a proper clothing sweep and NOT allow something to get in the trigger guard, mmmmK? It takes one second to look down and visually verify the holster is clear.

Agreed. This would be the best solution, and anyone who discovered this situation and was saved by a safety should need a change of underwear, a couple prayers of thanks, and a large amount of chastisement to never make such a mistake again.

As for your the mall ninja accusation (IMHO, you're sounding more mall ninja than me, claiming perfect training and performance every time is possible...just multiply the number of firearms by some miniscule chance of an incident, and you get a few each year), do a search for "Odessa Texas Police Department glock draw string" for the incident and some photos. And sorry, I did screw up, he DID manage to hit himself.

And I'm not claiming it's GOING to happen to you! I hope it never does to anyone...but experience simply shows that it does happen, and I'm ONLY saying that, if you want a safety on your gun, go for it. If not, don't! Both are safe with proper handling, but don't RELY on a safety.

 

[harbingerm]

CJ, you make some very valid points, many I agree with. I like the fact that you realize a manual safety is not NEEDED and shouldn't be relied upon. Sorry if I directed my "rant" towards you. Rather, it should be against the people (here and otherwise) who feel they cannot own a semi-auto without a thumb safety. You mentioned driving before and it's a semi-valid argument. I'm not a mall ninja or Dale Jr, but I've been driving for a LONG time and have never caused an accident with no "professional" training beyond driver's ed in high school and a motorcycle safety class. People just need to be more cautious about how they approach deadly items which can place them in deadly situations. Does that mean I'll never be involved in a car or shooting accident? Nope, not one iota because I cannot control other people's stupidity/negligence. I've had exactly two car accidents, both rear enders and I was completely stopped so it's not like I slammed on my brakes or anything...once to make a left turn with blinker on and once at a red light. Even following all the rules, they cannot prevent me from being inadvertently shot by another's negligence. Hmmm...maybe those types DO need a thumb safety! Who knows, maybe I just pay more attention to things because even though I don't really fly much anymore, I'm still a rated helicopter and airplane pilot and have been a flight instructor. REALLY gotta pay attention there!

 

[CJ]

I think we're on the same page!

One's not better than the other, and both can be safe...but a safety still can't cure stupid.

 

[harbingerm]

Best post in this thread!

 

[misterwhipple]

Cool beans! Thanks

E-e-xcellent! (rubs hands together )

Thanks, folks; this definitely helps.

 

[harbingerm]

[Smithers] Um, you're welcome Mr. Burns, sir... [/Smithers]