My theory on the mag. disconnect "safety"

[SSN Vet]

My big splurge for 2011 has been a BHP (MK III standard).

I've read up on the mag. disconnect "safety" and after the first range trip, I knew it had to go. (Bye bye... no discussion required, nor desired... sea lawyers please don't hi-jack my thread).

I've since done a ton of research on the Hi Power design, as I'm going to make some further improvements to lighten up the trigger pull.... (removing the mag. disconnect cleaned up the gritty take up, but did nothing for the 11 lb. pull)

There's a lot of debate over this... but in all that I've read the only "advantage" of the mag. disconnect (that made any sense to me at least) was that you could disable the weapon by popping the mag., should you ever wind up in a grappling match with a BG intent on using your pistol against you.

But today I was reading a really old HP pamphlet (the schematic had an internal extractor) with a section on history, in which the French army requirements for a new semi-auto pistol design where detailed (including the mag. disconnect).

The context is after WW II, where the Germans masterfully utilized many new kinds of automatic and semi-automatic weapons against the French (remember the US didn't enter the fight until the 8th inning) and after the war the French were determined to catch up. Revolvers (which all were familiar with) were out, and the "new fangled" high capacity semi-autos were in.... and in to stay.

So I'm still asking myself... why the mag disconnect? (which ruins the feel of the trigger pull).

My epiphany came as I recollected how there seems to be a new "I shot my ___" (insert applicable...foot, thigh, calf, wall, neighbors window, etc....) thread every week (any body else perplexed at how often these stories come up?). Most often the scenario goes like this.... I opened the slide and checked the chamber clear, then I dropped the slide and ejected the mag...... (then I pointed the gun at something I didn't want to destroy, being unsure of what was beyond it and pulled the trigger)..... Kaboom! (of the earth shattering variety).

Now if this is happening weekly in the most gun filled culture of modern times where semi-auto hand guns have been around for a century (happy anniversary M1911 ), just think how often it was happening to conscripted French soldiers who had never seen a semi-auto pistol in their lives.

Summary (sorry it took me so long to get here) ..... the mag. disconnect safety was required to prevent accidental/negligent discharges by improperly trained personal (or properly trained personal, who just couldn't get it.)

Am I the only one out there that didn't pick up on this intuitively?

 

[mgmorden]

You're kinda picking up on information that has been LONG known .

Simple thing: the BHP and some other such guns were introduced when they were largely replacing revolvers. Revolvers don't have a single chamber - you swing out the cylinder and drop the ammo and the gun is empty.

Think about people who all of their life have been used to that - drop all the ammo out at once and the gun is empty.

Now give them a semi-auto where MOST of the ammo is in one place but ONE round - the IMPORTANT ONE - is somewhere else, and it's a bit of a culture change. Those people are going to gravitate towards the (incorrect) mindset that if I drop the ammo out of the grip, the gun is empty. Even people who KNOW different when they think it through might still not parse it quite right when acting quickly.

As such, mag disconnects were born. In today's world though, they're a bit of an outdated thing. People are no longer in that revolver mentality. Nowadays companies just put them in because its' an established "safety feature" and the more of those they can cram into a gun the easier it is for them to keep the lawyers at bay.

 

[SSN Vet]

In hind sight it seems so obvious....

But for some time, all I could think of was "why would you mess up a perfectly good design with a mag. disconnect"

 

[mgmorden]

In hind sight it seems so obvious....

But for some time, all I could think of was "why would you mess up a perfectly good design with a mag. disconnect"

Indeed. My Star Modelo Super had one that I ended up removing with a dremel (was just a small part of the mag release to grind away - not even visible when the gun was assembled) . When shooting it I really didn't mind - it didn't get in the way. What annoyed me was when I WASN'T shooting it. Just as a habit, when I'm checking a chamber I typically take the magazine out of the gun. Make sure it's empty, rack the slide, check chamber, make sure it's empty too. Then drop the hammer and put the mag back in before storing the gun.

The disconnect messed up my rhythm . I'd rack the slide, see an empty chamber, and then when I went to thumb down the hammer it was stuck. Yes, I could put the mag back in and THEN drop it, but that's just not my usual procedure. I had some extra time one day and it got on my nerves for the last time . . .

 

[xr1200]

The only problem you will have is removing the trigger pin in the frame and the pin in the trigger is that they are very tight and most ppl ding up the frame while trying to remove the pin.

You also need to remove the pin from the right side of the abi safety , if you intend on installing a lighter hammer spring , which is needed for the best trigger possible. This pin is also a hard to get out.

Go to the browning section in the www.1911.com section on trigger pin removal, there are several write ups, so you will see what you are in for.

 

[SSN Vet]

Oh, I got it out already with no problems....

Having a good selection of punches certainly helped.

 

[KBintheSLC]

From a tactical/strategic standpoint, the mag disconnect safety is a failure. From a liability limiting standpoint, it makes the companies' lawyers sleep better at night. I personally will not buy a gun that has one, but that's just me.

 

[kwelz]

KB you are telling me.

At a pistol class a couple months ago I failed to seat the mag properly. When I went to pull the trigger I got nothing. There was a round in the chamber but the magazine was not in far enough to engage the Mag disconnect in my M&P.

I have always disliked it but in this situation it scared the crap out of me. Yes I screwed up by not seating the mag properly. But that can happen. This stupid lawyer feature meant I could not engage the target with even the single round in the gun. In a life or death situation that would have been disastrous.

I see what you are getting at about the original reason for it. But I share your dislike and don't feel that a lack of training on others part should lead to a dangerous situation on my part.

 

[Harley Quinn]

The mag disconnect is part of what sold the S&W to the CHP...
I think in LEO, it is not a bad idea... Many have been shot with own firearm, just one more thing to help, if overwhelmed in a fight...

 

[Tinpig]

SSN Vet makes an interesting point.

In my case, my early '50s FN BHP has a very nice trigger pull, disconnect and all, so it doesn't bother me and I'm not tempted to mess with it.

As far as lowering the hammer after racking the slide to check the chamber, I engage the disconnect in the mag well with my left index finger while lowering the hammer with my right thumb.

Tinpig