My thoughts on the Armys pick of the SIG 320

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Jim,
But I have this picture of troops taking their guns further apart than field stripping and wondering how to get them back together.

Big Army has a preventive technology already in place. I believe its called a First Sergeant.

The 320 acquisition makes much sense to me in terms of functionality and most importantly logistics support. The 1911, properly maintained, is as strong a fighting gun as one would want. The challenge though is that 'support' means an expensive and rare set of 1911 repair skills. The plug and play aspect of the 320 dominates the conversation.

Remember, people think tactics and professionals think logistics.
 
I read somewhere that the P320 will cost us $206 each.

I am not sure about this "modularity" stuff. If it supports easy repair, great. But I have this picture of troops taking their guns further apart than field stripping and wondering how to get them back together.
Too late for that. Chances are if you went into any arms room you will find two M4s with trigger springs incorrectly installed. That was about the average when I was in.
 
I don't believe there had been a new 1911 provided to any branch of the U.S. military since the mid or late 1950s

The Government cancelled all contracts for the 1911A1 at the end of WWII. There were so many of them in service that they decided to just refurbish what was on hand. My unit (40th Eng Bn, 1st AD) didn't turn our 1911 pistols in until late 92.

I carried a 1911A1 during Desert Storm and it rattled like crazy but the barrel to slide fit was good and it was still accurate.
 
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If you go into that same arms room you could likely find two M4's with the trigger springs incorrectly installed. It's still taking them down further than operator maintenance is allowed and the soldier who does that can charged with breaking it. He could spend a lot of weekends pulling grass out of the cracks in the sidewalk.

I see the problem here - NO, the soldier does NOT tear the gun down to it's component parts. That is upper level maintenance. NO, the soldier does NOT replace parts - first, there were no drop in parts on the 1911, they require gunsmith level fitting or it could be even more boogered up that it was broke.The 1911 never had a good set of blueprints, and when war production started up the other gunmakers were forced to reverse engineer existing guns to get a working set of blueprints. We like to think that Eli Whitney showed us we could make interchangeable parts for guns, but the reality is that it didn't happen until the M16 was put into production. The 1911 was a massive failure in getting drop in parts with Remington, Colt, Ithaca, Union Switch, and others to stick to the same dimensions and then the same production tolerances. Singer never got it right - they scrapped thousands of guns and just a few were ever accepted.

As time went by there were very specific faults found with the 1911 and John Moses Browning started the design for the gun later named the Browning Hi Power. Note carefully the following changes - double stack, magazine safety, no bushing. Subsequent to that the Germans came up with the Walther P38 and adding double action to the list of necessary features.

After WWII the Army came to the conclusion the 1911 was obsolete. Most of the WWI models were worn out. They started a new pistol trial in the late '40s with the requirments of 9mm, double action trigger, under 30 oz with a near 4" barrel. If that doesn't express their concern about the 1911 being antiquated, what does? After submittals, which included the Colt Commander (which didn't comply,) the T3 and T4, plus the S&W M39, they cancelled the effort as being too expensive. The Army was downsizing and there were 2.5 milllion 1911's in inventory. Those got rebuilt again, costing nearly as much as a new gun acquisition. They were sent to armorer's at depot level. No, the soldier didn't do it, no the company armorer didn't do it. It takes skilled gunsmiths to work on a 1911.

We finally caught up with the requirement for a new pistol in 1984 when the 1911 fleet was over at best 50 years old, double the life and expense put into it and still behind the times. The M9 finally approved was 9mm, had a lightweight alloy frame, double stack, double action, etc. Glock missed the bid window and didn't submit. It was simply a matter of timing. Those guns are now over 30 years old as a fleet, aging, worn down, and it's time to step up again.

The M17 Is modular - Glock is not. A Glock has a fixed molded chassis in the grip and damage to it requiring replacement means scrapping a serial numbered item. Fail. The P320 can be disassembled and the grip swapped out. The Glock offers no length or capacity change. Fail, the M17 has three grip units and mag capacities. The Glock offers no barrel change ability, you can't drop in a shorter barrel to make it compact, the M17 can with shorter slides and again, grips to alter that, too. Both are DAO, but the M17 has an additional external safety. Glock has offered that for certain contracts and for the most part it SHOULD have been included - ask cops suffering from the dreaded Glock Leg Syndrome.

It's not that any of the newer guns in history were a "game changer." For that matter they got to compete on one side or another, sometimes both in WWII, and their has been no conclusion that one soldier armed with a certain pistol had the advantage over the other. This fact is conveniently ignored by a lot of pistol fans - handguns in combat are not a significant sidearm and are mostly intended to denote rank and status. Not ability, either. They are at best a low intensity conflict personal defense weapon. If the mortar rounds are flying and automatic fire is the rule of the day, those who could carry a pistol resort to the main battle rifle. Some generals in WWII were known to carry the M1 with them in the field at all times rather than a pistol. Good thing to do for security, too - pistol carriers are a high profile target to be taken out as they are frequently higher level command. The last thing you want is a big red arrow in your hand pointing you out as somebody who makes decisions and directs the flow of combat. Let the staff officers have them sitting in tents behind barbed wire waiting to jump into their foxhole under their desk.

What we have with the M17 is a gun that can fit the carry requirements and be serviced more easily at the unit level without as many critical failure issues redlining them to be sent up the maintenance chain. It leaves that armorer more time to work on the much more important MG's and larger weapons which need to be put back on the line. PIstol repair is a time waster and negatively impacts our combat logistics in the big picture. We certainly do not want a frame with integral molded chassis. Glock had it's day, it was the leading edge in 1984, 34 years later it's now obsolete. Just like the 1911 was in 1948. We could have moved to the S&W 39 back then but blew the chance. Don't forget the Navy did not, and adopted it for SEAL use.
 
Some generals in WWII were known to carry the M1 with them in the field at all times rather than a pistol. Good thing to do for security, too - pistol carriers are a high profile target to be taken out as they are frequently higher level command.
In WWII, yes. Now, virtually everybody in a combat zone carries a pistol.

And some of us Unit Armorers did do depot level work; I had an SMOS of 45B, and often did higher level work, usually at the Maintenance Activity, where they had the right tools for the job. The Chief turned a blind eye to it, because that was that much less work his guys had to do, and he monitored my work until he was comfortable with my abilities.

Good post, it explains the background info very well.
 
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the army is real good at wasting money spending over a half billion on pistols that are worth nothing in combat. what could have possibly been wrong with the Beretta? in combat it is suicidal to count on a pistol and how often are they used in that arena. this is just a ploy so guys can shoot millions of rounds at targets and compete with the other services
 
I look at it like this. If there are a large number of pistols that need to be replaced because they are non serviceable, why not look at a next generation design. If they are easer and cheaper to maintain (which it looks like they are) then it saves money in the long run.

This is coming from a guy who carried his personal 1911 long after the switch to the M9.......(it still makes me cringe when I think how stupid that was)
 
That explains the $40.00 cost of a frame, so it's really just a shell?
Yes, except for the magazine catch which is part of the grip module. Other than that, it is just one piece of polymer. The back of the FCU locks into a square cut out on the rear of the grip module, the body of the FCU fits very snuggly into the grip module, and the front of the FCU is confined by the take down lever.
 
Just for accuracy's sake, those refer to the size of the guns....slide length and grip height. The Carry is the Compact slide on a Full Size grip

Correct. I had a bookmark saved for the different sizes of the grip modules of the 250 and 320 but that information was moved. I didn't find the measurements until just now.
 
And some of us Unit Armorers did do depot level work

Or they took it to the machinist down in the motor-pool to work on it with them. There was no maintenance allocation chart for MOS 44E (machinist) when I was in. Sometimes 3rd shop would bring things to me to work on since they didn't have a machinist in their unit. I did a few MWO's on weapons and equipment while I was in.

As far as a new pistol for the military that is easier to repair/fix and will will function all all types of environments, I'm all for it. Especially if it has easily replaceable grips to fit different size hands.

I was a M60 gunner during Desert Storm and they issued me a sidearm to go with the M60. I scrounged an old 1911A1 instead of carrying the M9 (untested in desert combat at that time). Even though I have small hands, the 1911 fit my hands better than the M9 did and was able to qualify with higher scores with the 1911.
 
I am afraid those old Berettas have seen better days, I saw in another forum that most of them are half silver from abuse.
Unless they give them away, you will end up replacing half the parts, andd on that gun you still will have plenty to wear out unless you replace the entire firing mech and safetys and refinish the bent and scratched parts, unless you want a truck gun.In which case they better be under 200 dollars.
If they do 'em like they did the M1s, they'll go over them, replace parts as necessary, like they'll make 20 good guns out of parts from 25, then grade them for pricing. If it happens you'll know what you're getting.
 
Well I suspect the gubment isn't paying their own firearms tax, so that's 10% right out of the gate.

And I suspect that the DOD is going to indemnify SIG from liability, so that reduces their exposure that needs to be insured.

At $206, we're seeing the real cost of small, precision machined mechanical assemblies. And I very much suspect SIG is making decent money.... and will make much more when they become super popular and people come looking for guns just like the military uses.
 
There are 4 different grip sizes as far as I can tell. Full size, compact, carry, and subcompact. The first 3 are probably what the Army picked up, as there isn't much need for concealability of a service pistol. Maybe one of the other grip sizes would fit your hand better?
I understand about the different grip lengths, but I would like to be able to handle the different grip /lengths/widths/diameters to see what fit me.

sigp250gripdimensions.jpg
 
So if you buy a P250 or P320 does it come with all three grip frames?
 
So if you buy a P250 or P320 does it come with all three grip frames?
No, it seems most come with the medium. The big box stores probably have large and small in stock if you ask. If not they should have a sig section were they sell the grip frames and if you ask someone to see which one you like they probably won't care as long as you're a serious buyer. They might even have a display with all three size grip modules on display if they are really sig'ed out. The packages at my lgs aren't sealed shut, so you can just pull them out and put them back in. This was about 10 months ago when I was in the sig modular grip section so they might come all sealed up now, idk
 
I don't know what the Army is like today, but when I was in it back in the 50s & 60s, an
ordinary soldier never saw a pistol. I shot on the post pistol team and was handed a gun
to shoot and then it was taken away from me when the day was over. The ordinary infantry
guy didn't carry a pistol. They were mostly for officers or people with specialty jobs.
Zeke
 
I don't know what the Army is like today, but when I was in it back in the 50s & 60s, an
ordinary soldier never saw a pistol. I shot on the post pistol team and was handed a gun
to shoot and then it was taken away from me when the day was over. The ordinary infantry
guy didn't carry a pistol. They were mostly for officers or people with specialty jobs.
Zeke
MP's or Officers, more often than not. Maybe for a Ranger squad on recon with supressors. But not so much, unless they are changing up the equiptment to include a pistol shortly.
 
MP's or Officers, more often than not. Maybe for a Ranger squad on recon with supressors. But not so much, unless they are changing up the equiptment to include a pistol shortly.

Yeah, most conventional forces MTOE/TOE only have a dozen or so pistols on their books. Lowest level I've seen is typically the company commander; however, some units authorize pistols for lower enlisted depending on their MOS...they're not too common. This is often the biggest problem. If the trooper getting issued a pistol doesn't make shooting a hobby, handgun training is really quite inadequate outside military police. They typically get a functionality class for the firearm and that's about it. Training is often highly dependent on the trainer and many are really not any more qualified than the individual getting assigned a pistol and likely their first handgun they've fired. With CHL popularity, more Soldiers than I remember are purchasing and carrying handguns when off duty...this may help down the road, but training has always been key regardless of the weapons system.

I do like the idea of the changeable sizes of the P320/M17. If they ever get the provost marshal proponent to update regs and allow CCW on Army installations (not at work though), than I see many service members purchasing the compact and subcompact P320's for carrying and hopefully training on their own.

ROCK6
 
When we switched from 1911s we lost a lot of pistols on the Table of Organization that defines what weapons a unit should have. Relying on memory, a light Infantry unit would be 5 for the officers, Commander, XO and 3 platoon leaders, First Sergeant, 6 machine gunners who would commonly leave the machine gun once placed because its a crew served weapon, so needed another weapon for chow and other reasons. With the change from 1911s the Assistant Gunners lost their pistols. 2 pistols for the 60mm mortar gunners for the same reason as the machine gunners. The armsroom had a couple of spares. I retired in 99. When Desert Storm/Shield happened there were a lot of officers in Headquarters who decided they wanted M16s. We did a trade, M16 for a M9 with our spare M16s, put it on the company books so they could not change their minds, so we were able to give our assistant gunners a pistol as well.
 
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