National Park Carry? Good manners, good sense, good grief?

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jamesjames

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I'm an Oregon resident with a CCL and will be travelling across the country to Minnesota. I've checked reciprocity in the states I will be travelling through and its a checkerboard. Idaho=yes, Wyoming=no, South Dakota=yes, Minnesota=no. I understand this part of the game.

My question concerns Yellowstone National Park. We will be stopping and doing back country hiking for 3 days. I want to carry a 629 for personal defense. Out of an abundant sense of good manners, I don't plan on carrying in the tourist areas of the park. I only plan to carry in the back country. But it got me to wonder. Open carry or concealed?

I can't carry concealed in Wyoming with my Oregon CCL. When I am in Yellowstone, do the National Park rules pertain or do the State Laws pertain? Also, Wyoming has open carry. Does that extend to non-residents?

How does one interpret these inter-tangled laws and rules?
 
To carry in a NP you have to have a permit valid in the state the NP is located in. If your carry permit isn't recognized in WY then you can't concealed carry there. If WY permits open carry for non-residents then my guess is that it is OK. I simply don't know. FWIW, small parts of the park are in MT and I think ID. Make sure you're legal in those states as well if you will be in those sections of the park.

I live in N.GA and visit the Smoky Mt. NP quite often. Half the park is in TN, half in NC, fortunately my permit is legal in both states. Even though it is legal in the back country it is still illegal inside any federally owned building inside the park. I often have to take mine off when entering any building, and at times when hiking am forced to leave my gun inside my pack to enter most buildings.

I wouldn't open carry there even if legal. I just think the hassle of dealing with other visitors seeing the gun outweigh the threat. Most people simply assume it is illegal and would cause issues. Bear spray is available and would be my choice if I couldn't carry concealed. Actually I'd carry both. I personally like the idea of having a firearm. But realistically the odds of a problem are still small.
 
National Parks carry rules are governed by the state jurisdiction in which they are geographically situated, with the proviso that there are specific rules re concealed carry that may be posted in these otherwise federal jurisdictions. As you note, WY and OR do not enjoy reciprocity on CCLs (rather bizarrely). However, WY is a Constitutional Carry state and you may open carry in the state of WY provided you are legally allowed to own and possess firearms (which if you have an OR CCL, you are). I am a CO resident and open carry in WY (not at all uncommon outside Teton County and Laramie ;-) ) and have done so in Teton National Park, though not in Yellowstone.

In my opinion, your sense of good manners is well considered. Lots of Eastern tourists in Yellowstone who could have coronaries or conniption fits at the mere sight of a handgun. My experience with open carry in CO, WY, and UT is that John Q Public seems much less nervy about revolvers than s/a pistols and that when I carry a full size revolver (7.5" Schoefield replica for example) in a flap holster, there is virtually zero interest. Maybe if they can't see it, it doesn't exist ?
 
Whilst you absolutely need to verify the laws for yourself, I am very confident WY allows open carry. Each NP follows State and local firearms laws.

Edited: RPRNY covered it nicely.
 
I was in Yellowstone once, and some people were pulled over looking at a bear a ways off the road. One guy was open carrying a revolver. Another pasty guy in shorts and a polo walked over to him and asked in a Bostonian accent if it was really necessary to carry a gun like that. Another guy standing closeby said in a Scandinavian accent; "That is a BEAR." So yeah, some people will be offended no matter what you do, but others just don't care. Me and some of my friends did a victory lap day and open-carried in Zion when it was made legal. Many parks have their popular tourist alleys, and back-country areas, where we open carry and don't care.

The buildings in parks vary. The visitor's center in Zion is plastered with no-carry signs. But the out-building restrooms aren't. (I already know what's in the visitor's center, I worked there when I was a kid.) The lodge at the north rim of the Grand Canyon is not a federal building, it's privately owned and operated. I carried in and out of there. But the last time I was at the Old Faithful Lodge in Yellowstone, it was still marked as no carry. If I went again, I would do a little homework and watch the signs, because I wouldn't be surprised if it has been privatized as well.
 
jmr40 said:
To carry in a NP you have to have a permit valid in the state the NP is located in. If your carry permit isn't recognized in WY then you can't concealed carry there. If WY permits open carry for non-residents then my guess is that it is OK. I simply don't know. FWIW, small parts of the park are in MT and I think ID. Make sure you're legal in those states as well if you will be in those sections of the park.
Click to expand...

Very good.

However, I would open carry in the backcountry, for a couple of reasons.

Signed, ex-park ranger
 
FWIW, I've open carried while backpacking for many years in WY. It's common and unremarkable. I usually avoid Yellowstone, because it's far from the best place to hike in WY :). I carried in North Cascades right after the change, and it was a nonevent.

I suspect a lot of people don't notice because it's a cordura flap holster on the pack's hipbelt.

If you wanted to be discreet and your permit was valid, I'd recommend the 'Wilderness Safepacker'. It's a cordura rectangle that makes a pretty good backcountry holster, but I think it might qualify as concealed.

As an aside, why not get an Idaho non-resident. I think you'd be good to go in WY even with the older non-enhanced version. When I got one years ago, the process took about 30 minutes (although it's a drive from the Oregon coast).
 
pintler said:
If you wanted to be discreet and your permit was valid, I'd recommend the 'Wilderness Safepacker'. It's a cordura rectangle that makes a pretty good backcountry holster, but I think it might qualify as concealed.
Click to expand...

I have couple Safepackers. I always assumed carrying in one would be considered concealed, by law enforcement. They're a very comfortable option though, and complete protect the gun. They don't give a particularly fast draw, however.
 
I have a safepacker and a variety of other pouches that can double as a holster. I'm assuming that any pouch that isn't "holster-shaped" would transform my on-the-belt carry into the realm of concealed carry. Am I wrong?

I'm still at home, a week or more away from the gates of Yellowstone. I've been hiking several miles a day with pack, boots, and trekking poles to get ready for the backpacking trip. This morning I put the 629 in a vertical, lidded pouch on the belt, just to see what the weight, bounce, and rubbing would be after 2 miles. It packed just fine. I have several of these pouches attached to the pack for water bottles and FAK. But they are pouches, and when the firearm disappears into them the firearm becomes concealed.

I have a good leather holster that I can comfortably open-carry the 629 in. Just trying to decide if its worth the hassle.
 
I'm assuming a flap holster is "holster-shaped", and the butt of the pistol or revolver is visible from the back end. So in my mind a flap holster = recognizable holster shape = open carry.
 
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"I'm assuming that any pouch that isn't "holster-shaped" would transform my on-the-belt carry into the realm of concealed carry."

That's my assumption.

"So in my mind a flap holster = recognizable holster shape = open carry."

Ditto.
 
I've done a lot of research on this today. Open carry in Wyoming is unrestricted including for visitors. You must be 21 years of age and be law abiding. Many states have reciprocity for concealed carry in Wyoming, but Oregon does not. Safepacker, Kifaru Koala, Hill People Kit Bags, and all other pouches and packs that conceal the contours of the gun are considered concealed carry. Legal if you have reciprocity, illegal if you don't.

As a visitor I can open carry in Wyoming except in the usual places like court houses, federal gov't buildings, airports, etc. As a visitor and guest in Wyoming I will be discrete and use good judgement in open carry in backcountry hikes. It is legal to open carry in Yellowstone except in visitor centers. It is illegal to discharge a firearm in Yellowstone. Don't laugh.
 
This is from the Yellowstone park website:

"As of February 22, 2010, a federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in this park.

It is the responsibility of visitors to understand and comply with all applicable state, local, and federal firearms laws before entering this park. Yellowstone encompasses parts of Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho, and each state has different regulations: follow the links provided here to learn more.

Federal law also prohibits firearms in certain facilities in this park (such as visitor centers, government offices, etc.); those places are marked with signs at all public entrances. Hunting and discharge of firearms remain prohibited in Yellowstone National Park.

Firearms should not be considered a wildlife protection strategy. Bear spray and other safety precautions are the proven methods for preventing bear and other wildlife interactions."

Note the last paragraph. I volunteer at a National Park, and at our park discharge of a firearm is a violation of regulations, subject to issuance of a citation.
 
pintler said:
As an aside, why not get an Idaho non-resident. I think you'd be good to go in WY even with the older non-enhanced version. When I got one years ago, the process took about 30 minutes (although it's a drive from the Oregon coast).
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that's an option anymore. Idaho went constitutional carry last year - 3 years before my wife's and my Idaho CCW licenses were set to expire.
Idaho's "enhanced" CCW licenses are still available for those who want reciprocity with other states, but I'm not sure that Idaho standard, non-resident CCW licenses are.
But that brings up another point - the OP mentioned they'd be traveling through Idaho. Contrary to popular opinion, only a small sliver, the southwest edge of Yellowstone Park is in Idaho. Even the west entrance, through West Yellowstone (the town) is in Montana - barely, but it is in Montana, not Idaho.:)
 
jmr40 said:
To carry in a NP you have to have a permit valid in the state the NP is located in.
9MMare said:
Very good.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
LOL,if it's very good to promote information that is wrong, then yeah the quote would have to be very good.

You DO NOT need a permit to carry in the NPs; you need whatever the state where the NP is located requires. If one can carry openly outside the Park without a permit (like it is here in WA) then you do not need a permit inside the park.
 
"Idaho's "enhanced" CCW licenses are still available for those who want reciprocity with other states, but I'm not sure that Idaho standard, non-resident CCW licenses are."

The form:

https://www.isp.idaho.gov/BCI/documents/CWLform072016.pdf

still has a check box for enhanced or not. In any event, the training requirements for enhanced are pretty generous - any hunter safety, any competition, etc. If I wanted an enhanced permit and was traveling through Idaho (hint, OP!) I'd call some convenient sheriff and inquire about the details.
 
How to handle anti gun comments in public is the real issue here. While we may prefer to deflect any controversy on vacation the example of Mr Flip Flops ignorantly questioning carry in the presence of "dangerous game" shows that anti gunners can and will stupidly protest it.

I'm beginning to arrive at the conclusion that being nice and politely answering them is the real problem. How to phrase it appropriately would be the issue, delivering enough character credibility along with a few choice descriptors to put off their initial assessment that they were in a "superior" social role. After all, they think they are better than us and have some kind of authority because of it.

Subject for another time but it's the point of this conversation. We are dancing around trying to please people who have no intent to be nice in the first place. So it boils down to "how do we hide the gun to keep from being a target of their malice?"

We're approaching the problem like a bunch of losers. Since when do they tell us what to do?

Anyway, I believe the OP has a plan and will enjoy his vacation. He's not alone in his assessment. I've done the same.
 
pintler said:
"I'm assuming that any pouch that isn't "holster-shaped" would transform my on-the-belt carry into the realm of concealed carry."

That's my assumption.

"So in my mind a flap holster = recognizable holster shape = open carry."

Ditto.
Click to expand...
Few years back before CWC became legal in Wisconsin, I was hunting deer with a 686 in a standard Bianchi cowboy type hip holster. Very definite gun shape and top of the gun exposed. Problem was, when the game warden stopped me, my blaze orange vest covered the exposed part of the gun. While the shape of the holster very definitely told him I was open carrying a firearm, because no part was exposed, he told me by definition, I was Carrying Concealed. He was nice about it, didn't give me a ticket or even get cross. He just suggested I cut the bottom tip of the holster off so that some part of the gun was always exposed, make sure the vest didn't cover the rig or get a different rig. I went with the latter, a chest rig and never looked back. Now with CWC legal, it's a moot point. Not every LEO is nice about simple mistakes. Some always go by the letter of the law and some are just jerks. I was in a situation where I didn't upset any anti gunners. In a scenario where someone may turn me because they saw "a man with a gun!", I'd make sure I dotted my I's and crossed my T's.
 
pintler said:
"Idaho's "enhanced" CCW licenses are still available for those who want reciprocity with other states, but I'm not sure that Idaho standard, non-resident CCW licenses are."

The form:

https://www.isp.idaho.gov/BCI/documents/CWLform072016.pdf

still has a check box for enhanced or not. In any event, the training requirements for enhanced are pretty generous - any hunter safety, any competition, etc. If I wanted an enhanced permit and was traveling through Idaho (hint, OP!) I'd call some convenient sheriff and inquire about the details.
Click to expand...
I couldn't get the link to work, but thanks for the information, pintler.:)
 
Got my back country gear together. Jingle bells for the packs. No odor or low odor foods. Good hygiene for cooking and clean-up. Bear bag and line for hoisting and storing food overhead and 1/4 mile from tent site. Bear spray for the belts. All per National Park back country guidelines. And if all that fails, a S&W 629 with Buffalo Bore hard-cast Keiths.

I plan on being a good trail mate and discrete open carrier. The firearm will never leave the holster except in the gravest extreme. I'll be polite to curious people who want to see the firearm and explain that the safest gun is the one that stays in the holster. I'll be polite to the anti gunners on the trail. Courtesy, competence, and discipline are the hallmarks of a good firearms ambassador. Time to mount up and hit the trail.
 
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