National permit recognition gains support

[Aguila Blanca]

The best part of the legislation, though, is the use of the word "firearm" in the legislation. Not "handgun". In Pennsylvania, our CCW permits allow us to carry handguns and short barreled rifles and shotguns that are normally class 3 weapons. To my knowledge, we're the only state that has this unique wording in the CCW law. We also don't have an assault weapons ban. The way I read this bill, it not only requires recognition of the license by all the states, but also the types of the firearms allowed by the license (other than a machinegun or destructive device). So if a Pennsylvania CCW holder legally owns and carries, say, an semi-auto UZI, in Pennsylvania, they could do so in New Jersey, or any other state, which has an assault weapons ban.

Michael, that's a very interesting and creative interpretation of the proposed law, but I most assuredly would not wish to be the test case. That's a real stretch of the full faith and credit clause. That's like saying your PA driver's license allows you to operate your vehicle in the other 49 states under the PA motor vehicle laws, and I don't think anyone believes that to be the case.

 

[hugh damright]

The best part of the legislation, though, is the use of the word "firearm" in the legislation. Not "handgun". In Pennsylvania, our CCW permits allow us to carry handguns and short barreled rifles and shotguns that are normally class 3 weapons ...The way I read this bill, it not only requires recognition of the license by all the states, but also the types of the firearms allowed by the license (other than a machinegun or destructive device). So if a Pennsylvania CCW holder legally owns and carries, say, an semi-auto UZI, in Pennsylvania, they could do so in New Jersey, or any other state, which has an assault weapons ban.

The letter of the law does not override the spirit of the law. Are PA CCW permits intended to apply to all firearms including class 3 weapons? Is the Bill in question intended to permit people with PA CCW permits to carry all firearms including class 3 weapons nationwide?

 

[Highland Ranger]

Did Geraldo do a piece on this for the 6pm NYC Fox news?

Missed it but my son said he did something on concealed carry in NY.

Maybe he was dreaming!

 

[alan]

Called my elected things again today, soliciting their support.

 

[beerslurpy]

Anything that brings large scale CCW into the commie states is a HUGE guerilla victory for us. CCW wins hearts and minds, no two ways about it. If this passes, 10 years later you will see gun control dying not just nationwide but in the places where it is most entrenched now.

The purpose of CCW is three-fold:
1) allow people to defend themselves and only have to worry about whether it was self defense. These are the same laws that protect cops, politicians and other establishment figures, so the self defense laws are actually very fair, even in the commie states. Most states are still running off variants of common-law for self defense. Florida's duty to treat was actually harsher than most gun ban state. This also means no more Bernie Goetzes (not guilty of murder, but guilty of NYC gun possession).

2) make carrying of weapons more pervasive and more socially acceptable without initially freaking out Cindy Soccer Mom when the program is introduced. The big win here comes with Cindy Soccer Mom finds out that all her friends have been carrying for the past 10 years and everyone else considers it completely normal. Once the herd starts thinking "baaaa baaa guns not scary anymore" it is all over lol tipping point. Seen it with my own eyes in Florida.

3) demonstrate that having everyone armed doesnt actually make society any more dangerous but without actually risking persecution in the years it takes for statistics to accumulate. Having the gun carrying existing on the books but not visibly in public is almost like having your cake and eating it too. No one who objects to it can see who is doing it to stir up trouble. This is going to be especially useful in cities with anti-gun police/prosecutors who wont be able to crack down without getting in major trouble over 4th amendment issues. Watch for a test case on this one. And then there really will be no more bernie goetzes.

 

[RealGun]

Anything that brings large scale CCW into the commie states is a HUGE guerilla victory for us. - beerslurpy

If it is via legislation, unwilling States can make a strong, very shrill case against it. If it is via enforcement of the Constitution, the discussion is over.

 

[ElTacoGrande]

Anything that brings large scale CCW into the commie states is a HUGE guerilla victory for us. CCW wins hearts and minds, no two ways about it. If this passes, 10 years later you will see gun control dying not just nationwide but in the places where it is most entrenched now.

Senor understands perfectly why this is such a good idea. It normalizes the whole thing. It will normalize it in the last gun control holdouts (mainly CA and NY). Guess what these holdouts have the biggest two chunks of votes in congress and the electoral college. We need them or gun rights are in danger nation-wide. If we can get CCW in CA or NY or both, it drives a stake through the heart of gun control in the US. Then we can start helping our friends to the south and north.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Senor understands perfectly why this is such a good idea. It normalizes the whole thing. It will normalize it in the last gun control holdouts (mainly CA and NY). Guess what these holdouts have the biggest two chunks of votes in congress and the electoral college. We need them or gun rights are in danger nation-wide. If we can get CCW in CA or NY or both, it drives a stake through the heart of gun control in the US. Then we can start helping our friends to the south and north.

This could backfire. Right now, CCW is protected as something which is exclusively a State matter. Enemies of liberty are forced to fight against it on a State by State basis. Each CCW State represents a separate bulwark against their ends. Should the Federal camel ever succeed in getting its figurative nose under the proverbial tent of State CCW, we could see those tents ripped asunder in one fool swoop. Once the Fed is involved to any degree, the task of liberty's enemies becomes that much easier, i.e., they need only focus all their efforts at Congress and the Supreme Court.

Whenever I see arguments like the one I quoted above, I cannot help seeing images of the final scene in The Matrix, where Agent Smith thinks he has finally defeated Neo. He has "accessed" him and is beginning to assimilate him, as it were. Those who advocate the Federal approach are like Agent Smith, in that they see this as a sort of final death blow to the enemies of concealed carry (all those damned Neos out there), but Agent Smith was in for a bit of reversal of fortune. No longer was Smith assimilating him as a prelude to Neo's destruction. What Smith had unwittingly done was leave himself open to being himself assimilated, as it were, by Neo, who used this newly provided channel into Smith to destroy him.

Ok, maybe it's just a hokie movie, but I think it is a valuable illustration of my point. This channel that many are attempting to open up, so as to deal the final death blow to the enemies of CCW might well leave us wide open to a Neo-style reversal.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If it is via legislation, unwilling States can make a strong, very shrill case against it. If it is via enforcement of the Constitution, the discussion is over.

I bet a very good way to get to enforcement via the Constitution would be the predictable shrill reaction by certain states. Legislation like this is a great way to get a good Second Amendment case with good facts where the plaintiff isn't a felon/bootlegger.

 

[LAR-15]

Contacting my legislators Monday

 

[LAR-15]

The Real Hawkeye,

The Feds are invovled with ccw already with giving leos and retired leos concealed carry rights nationwide and in US territories.

They are in the position to protect the interstate right of self defense.

The Feds should make all states recognize a right to carry for defense.

 

[michaelbane]

Reply to Hawkmoon and Hugh Damright

First to Hawkmoon: I don't agree with your analogy to driver's licenses. Motor vehicle codes and cars are pretty much the same no matter what state you live in. Second, for Hugh Damright: here is the actual text from Pennsylvania's Uniform Firearms Act from Title 18 of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes:

§ 6102. Definitions.

Subject to additional definitions contained in subsequent provisions of this subchapter which are applicable to specific provisions of this subchapter, the following words and phrases, when used in this subchapter shall have, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise, the meanings given to them in this section:

***

"Firearm."
Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.

§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.

(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

§ 6109. Licenses.

(a) Purpose of license.--A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.

§ 6106.1. Carrying loaded weapons other than firearms.
(a) General rule.--Except as provided in Title 34 (relating to game), no person shall carry a loaded pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle, other than a firearm as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions), in any vehicle. The provisions of this section shall not apply to persons excepted from the requirement of a license to carry firearms under section 6106(b)(1), (2), (5) or (6) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license) nor shall the provisions of this section be construed to permit persons to carry firearms in a vehicle where such conduct is prohibited by section 6106.

Whoever wrote both bills were probably not aware of this quirk in Pennsylvania law. Since neither of them specify "handgun", my opinion is that for Pennsylvania permit holders, class 3 weapons are fair game.

 

[alan]

The legislative proposal should be as clean, meaning simple, straight forward as can be written, without so much as an extaneous coma, lest the lawyers and or bureaucrats get a handhold.

 

[alan]

The legislative proposal should be as clean, meaning simple, straight forward as can be written, without so much as an extaneous coma, lest the lawyers and or bureaucrats get a handhold.

One thing I've always been curious is the following.The operation of motor vehicles, based on the numbers of people killed and injured, year in, year out, must be a quite dangerous way in which to occupy oneself. Despite this factor, I can freely operate my automobile or one that I've rented or borrowed anywhere in the U.S., with whatever drivers license I happen to have. No questions are asked, assuming I abide by local speed limits, and such.

On the other hand, even though I may have a state issued Concealed Carry License or Permit from my state of residence, I quite often cannot carry concealed on my person, a handgun in another state. I can though, as above noted, operate a vehicle, in any of the 50 states and however many U.S.territories there might still be. Given that driving a vehicle appears to be more dangerous than is carrying a concealed pistol of revolver, this situation strikes me as just a bit peculiar. Of course, some have told me that I have "strange tastes", which perhaps explains my curiousity.

 

[Highland Ranger]

Automobiles are necessary for the subjects to go about the business of generating wealth for the masters . . . . . hence the difference.

 

[bnhcomputing]

Wisconsin DOES allow open carry

Comment #: 58:
For example, Wisconsin prohibits ALL carry of firearms in "taverns" and government buildings, because open carry there is legal except in those particular places on foot.

This is not true. Wisconsin prohibits carry of hand guns in "taverns" unless you/I/we have the owners permission and there is no restriction on long guns.

 

[Highland Ranger]

(necro thread alert!)

 

[alan]

As I said earlier, a CLEAN BILL is the way to go. Srrikes me that this "federal standards" dirties the thing up, which should be avoided.

Never give lawyers or bureaucrats or "government employees" the proverbial inch, lest they take the often mentioned mile, or two, possibly three.

 

[MT GUNNY]

I'm on the Fence on this Bill. So I have a Serious ?

Drives Licenses ar Issued By the State and So are CCP's. The Laws Regarding these Two Licenses are Made by the State. So How are Either of those Federalized?

 

[3v1lj03]

I'm on the Fence on this Bill. So I have a Serious ?

Drives Licenses ar Issued By the State and So are CCP's. The Laws Regarding these Two Licenses are Made by the State. So How are Either of those Federalized

The laws about drivers licences have changed. Have you heard of "Real ID" My licence in Indiana was suspended for failure to prove insurance in Virginia 16 years ago when I was not a resident of Virginia and I am held hostage by the Real ID act that ties alll the state licences together. Here is you Federal ID folks.

 

[dave_pro2a]

Why on earth should we allow the Obama administration anywhere near our State CCW rights?

I can only see this going bad, in the long run.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

We need 34+ States form a supermajority and say that the associated Amendments as written within the Consitution stands as it is and we dont need Uncle Sam to be imposing or writing more and more rules, laws and whatnot to force the last few strong states into compliance.

If the Federal Government isnt Careful; eventually all the States will simply respect each other's CCW face value and enjoy the fees and such on thier own.However, anything that tells joe citizen that he can bear arms anywhere in the USA any way he chooses to will be most helpful.

 

[thesolidus]

Comparison to Colorado law change

Colorado used to have different carry laws in every County! It was almost impossible to cross the state and obey the law no matter how you carried because counties would often demand the opposite if their neighbors.
Eventually we passed a law stating every county had to come to a state standard and every county had to allow CCW from other counties to carry as long as they obeyed the state law.

As soon as it passed a Sheriff in a small eastern county started issuing thousands of CCW's. You were hard pressed to get one in some places, but if you applied in that county (and they took your $) you could carry anywhere in the state.

Me, i'd love to have a Utah CCW work in California!

But, yeah, I don't like all the anti gun people knowing my name either.

 

[alan]

thesolidus wrote in part the following:

But, yeah, I don't like all the anti gun people knowing my name either.

----------------------

Have you realized that they already might?

 

[ThrottleJockey]

They can have my name, they can have my ssn, they can even have`my birthday and my truck, but when it comes to my guns, all they're getting is the bullets!!! One at a time and they'll be moving pretty fast.

I for one would really like to see some uniformity from state to state. I drive a truck for a living and it is getting very unsafe for us out here. I hate having to know the laws of every state I pass through, and having to stop at state lines to secure/unsecure my gun regularly. I just want to carry the damned thing so that I can make it home to my kids in the likely event that I will one day be forced to protect myself or the millions of dollars worth of cargo in my trailer at any given time.