Nationwide Concealed Carry Bill has 72 Consponsors

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That's good to hear. So the river is the border?

That points up the mishmash problem even more, you can't swing a dead cat without crossing state lines down there.
 
you can't swing a dead cat without crossing state lines down there.
Yeah, and there's probably a law against swinging dead cats (at least on Sundays) too! :D

It's nice to live in a big state. I haven't been out of MT since 2001 (and that was for work :( ). I'd just as soon stay here forever.

BTW, be nice to my cats ... I get grumpy about anyone/thing that bothers my kitties :p
 
LAR-15 said:
Ahem-

You would agree at least Congress has the power to force Washington DC to recoginze the concealed carry rights of the states since DC is not a state?

And you then believe that states like Illinois can infringe on my Second Amendment rights?


We have no rights in IL. Haven't you figured that out yet? The bill probably can't change anything for me, but I'd still like to see it pass.
 
If this passes, California is going to panic. Just a hop skip and a jump to NV to get a CCW permit. CA would have to honor it. HE HE HE!!!!!!
I may have missed this in skimming through the 5 pages, so apologies if I'm repeating someone else's question.

Not being up on all the "loopholes" possible, if this were to pass, would it be possible for states to sneak in their own State laws relating to it, such as, "Calif will only honor CCW issued by the holder's home state" just so they can keep Californians from getting an out of state permit? They would still have to honor CCW from those of you in free states, and thus would be "technically" complying with the law, but would be able to keep us Californians "in-check".
 
The states dont have the right to strip their populations of their constitutional rights. It is the place of the Federal Government to correct such things. On the other hand, the whole notion of needing a permit to carry goes against the constitution anyways, so this bill is actually a little misplaced.
Yes and no. As I said before, the BOR served to protect citizens of the USA from violations of their rights by the federal government, up until the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection clause was ratified. As an illustration, states routinely could and did violate the 4th amendment's prohibitions against searches and siezures, as they were bound only by state consitutions, which were sometimes (often?) less restricitive. This is why you had a watershed of constitutional cases in the 20th century, as SCOTUS firmly established what state LEOs could and could not do re: 4th amendment.

The reason why the 14th has not yet set its aegis of protection over the 2nd amendment is that we have yet to have a case like, say, Mapp vs. Ohio, finding that states cannot violate their own citizen's RKBA because of the 2nd Amendment.

I firmly agree that the full faith and credit clause ought to govern CCW permits, but for some reason it has not. Until then, this seems to be an ad hoc solution that makes up for in utility what it lacks in parsimony.


Mike
 
Some people seem to have this notion is bill is bad because:
4) It does not allow for Vermont and Alaska residents to carry. It does.
That introduces a gaping logical hole: If Vermont and Alaska citizens should be able to carry concealed without a permit in any state, why not allow everyone to do the same? This bill sets up privileged classes based on State of residence.

The general retort is that Congress doesn't have the power to grant citizens of states concealed carry privileges... only their states of residence can do that. That's bunk. A national permit-less ccw law would not have to grant anyone any privilege. It would simply forbid states from prohibiting ccw, much like states are prohibited from segregating public schools.

That said, if this bill passes, I suspect a lot of currently shall-issue states would quickly pass VT-style carry laws. That alone is why I support the bill.
 
Is Vegas giving any odds of this bill getting through the Senate (assuming that it might pass the House)? :confused: I just don't see the Senate ever even voting on this.
 
Mr Bowman it will pass the House if we let the people in charge we want it brought up and passed.

That is why it is essential to contact Rep Coble (and your rep)

Gun owners vote.
 
Please contact Chairman Howard Coble about it:

Honorable Howard Coble
2468 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515-3306
(202) 225-3065

Rep Coble decides if this bill is brought for a vote.
 
I am not changing my position. States do not have the constitutional authority to make carrying a gun a regulated privilege. I certainly don't want the federal government validating the practice of requiring a license, and I don't want them to find that they have to set the uniform standards. What I want is for States to be told to acknowledge and abide by the Second Amendment under authority of the 14th amendment. End of story. Carry wherever I need to. Don't like it? Change the Constitution. Worried about safe handling, good judgment, and marksmanship standards? Require militia training in lieu of military service or LEO training. That is all consistent with the Constitution.

I don't want a shorter term end run that serves to ignore the Constitution. Getting the feds involved in licensing is a Trojan Horse, hell to pay later.

I am also not going to encourage Congress to make gun laws. For one thing, it invites amendments and deal making with unintended consequences.
 
RealGun said:
I don't want a shorter term end run that serves to ignore the Constitution. Getting the feds involved in licensing is a Trojan Horse, hell to pay later.

I am also not going to encourage Congress to make gun laws. For one thing, it invites amendments and deal making with unintended consequences.

The Feds aren't involved in licensing. The states are.

This in no way establishes Federal licensing standards.

If Congress makes gun laws that uphold the true meaning of the SA, I am for it.
 
If trigger locks are forced to be sold with handguns, that is bad, because eventually we are going to be forced to use them.

Forcing states to honor each other's CCW permits is good, because the federal gov't would never decide to take teh licensing into their own hands.

Sometimes arguments I hear here don't make sense.
 
Sistema1927 said:
Why do we think that the Federal Government forcing the states to do ANYTHING is a good idea?

According to the US Constitution, the powers not specifically granted to the Federal Government are reserved to the states.

States rights, folks, states rights.

The states don't have jurisdiction in this case. They've trampled the 2nd all over the place. This is upholding the rights of the people that the states have already infringed.

The right to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

Get it? This is a clearly enunciated right. It's not like the 1st which bars COngress from doing anything.
 
RealGun said:
I am not changing my position. States do not have the constitutional authority to make carrying a gun a regulated privilege. I certainly don't want the federal government validating the practice of requiring a license, and I don't want them to find that they have to set the uniform standards. What I want is for States to be told to acknowledge and abide by the Second Amendment under authority of the 14th amendment. End of story. Carry wherever I need to. Don't like it? Change the Constitution. Worried about safe handling, good judgment, and marksmanship standards? Require militia training in lieu of military service or LEO training. That is all consistent with the Constitution.

I don't want a shorter term end run that serves to ignore the Constitution. Getting the feds involved in licensing is a Trojan Horse, hell to pay later.

I am also not going to encourage Congress to make gun laws. For one thing, it invites amendments and deal making with unintended consequences.

The bill CLEARLY states that people not licensed via a CCW program but entitled to carry in their home state may do so in any state in the union. Without a license! You have somehow managed to come to the opposite conclusion. How?

The constitution already provides ample support for a bill such as this. Full Faith and Credit + Necessary and Proper + maybe 2nd/14th if you want to get fancy. This is a simple matter of ensuring that people who may carry firearms can continue to do so when they cross state lines. There is thus no need to further amend the constitution. What could you possible add to it? RKBA? Jurisdiction over interstate affairs? The ability to pass laws? Seriously.

edit: and just FYI, the Slaughterhouse cases basically nullified the Priveliges and Immunities Clause. Google it if you dont beleive me.
 
beerslurpy said:
The bill CLEARLY states that people not licensed via a CCW program but entitled to carry in their home state may do so in any state in the union. Without a license! You have somehow managed to come to the opposite conclusion. How?

If you are paraphrasing accurately, what if one is not "entitled" to carry without a license?

I don't believe for a minute that any bill that would remove restrictions in large cities has a prayer of passing or even coming to the floor. That's a pretty fanciful notion, if you ask me. I don't see any congressional support for going that far with it. That would be one for the Supreme Court...a group able to withstand the political fallout. 'Problem is, they have little stomach for social consequences and will likely rationalize around it or simply deny cert. Nothing new here.
 
beerslurpy said:
If the state you live in makes the driver's license test too difficult for you to pass, does that mean I shouldnt be allowed to drive through your state?

Yes, I think that could be the State's argument. And who would be the likely mediator when State's licensing requirements are different enough to cause a dispute? Enter the federal government with more involvement than you ever wanted.
 
Don't Tread On Me said:
There is a lot of BS going around. There is NO way a bill like this is a good thing for us. I don't believe in centralism, that's for starters. A bill like this would be tough to get through the House and impossible to get through the Senate - as worded.

To pass such a bill, a lot of compromises would have to be reached. Either the CCP standards would have to be agreed on (see made stricter) or we'd have to trade something as big as a new AWB...they ban guns, and only trade licensed-freedom aka "priveledge"


This national CCP junk comes from pro-gun people in states who cannot get their own decent legislation, and want to get around their barbaric states by going the Fed route. At the expense of ruining decades of hard work for people of other states. Make no mistake about it. However you word this legislation to keep the Feds out, ONCE you make it national issue-- it will eventually be taken over as a federal issue. Then we are all screwed. Don't drag us into your misery. Want CCP? Move.


Anyhow, we are in no position to push forward Federally, we are still behind in the war. People act as though we've accomplished so much. Don't get so cocky.

NEWS FLASH ***

The AWB is only gone because of the sunset provision. Had it been permanent law, it would take a full vote in both House and Senate to repeal it, plus a signature from Bush who would then be put to the test to hold his campaign promise. It was far easier fending off a renewal, than achieving a repeal. So far, our record on repeals is ZERO. The Senate voted for the AWB, the House said no, and the president wouldn't have signed an AWB repeal. So, theoretically, if the AWB was permanent law with no sunset provision, putting a Republican House/Senate/President in power wasn't enough. We'd have to get a super-majority in the Senate, the same majority in the House, and a real pro-gun, anti-AWB president. HAHAHAHA. Yeah right.


The gun-industry protection bill is ok. Keeps the industry going which "trickles down" to keeping the sport alive, which in turn feeds the movement. However, it is no major win for gun rights. It was border-line cronyism for some of the old-school domestic firearm manufacturers who've sold us out in the past. They love protectionism - just look at the import bans. They don't like competing with cheap, yet good quality commie rifles. We also got another "ammunition study" which has been explained by the NRA and others as not being able to redefine armor piercing ammo in the law. But what it can do is report what ammo does to body armor, and as a study be used later by the Congress to actually change the law regarding the definition of AP. I guess it doesn't matter, with the BATFE legislating at will...


As you can see, we put in place a Republican President, a Republican House, and a Republican Senate...and all we got was an AWB expiration (no thanks to any of them but the House), and industry protection....Folks - it is never going to get better. Voting for the Dems will not help, it will make it worse. Adding more Republicans won't help either. If you make them too comfy in their seats, they begin to ignore you. National concealed carry is extremely hard to pull off, and even if we do, is going to be bad in the long run.

The fight should shift to the states. We've mostly lost the national culture war for guns, but it's not over. Because of this, our ideas for legislation are viewed as extreme. How do you get rid of that label? You actually get such a law passed somewhere, anywhere. Get your foot in the door. Once it becomes real law, people then give it more respect. It gains a new image. Also, it's effects or lack of effects can be seen.


State/local is the ticket. Federally, we just need to fend off new gun bans, but forget about actually becoming pro-gun. Sorry for being a pessimist, I am just reporting what I see.
+1. As much as I'd like to be able to travel to any State and be legal with my carry weapon, it is not worth the further slide into consolidated and centralized government. States rights! The Tenth Amendment! Hold onto these or eventually lose all of your liberties.
 
Drysdale said:
The states don't have jurisdiction in this case. They've trampled the 2nd all over the place. This is upholding the rights of the people that the states have already infringed.

The right to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

Get it? This is a clearly enunciated right. It's not like the 1st which bars COngress from doing anything.
The Second Amendment is a restriction only on what the Federal Government may do, i.e., it may not infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear arms. It was never intended to bar the States, however, which are sovereign in their own rights. Yes, it acknowledges the preexistence of the right to keep and bear arms, but acknowledging a right is not the same as making its free exercise Federally enforceable. For that to be the case, you'd have to show where the Constitution delegates to the Federal Government the power to enforce citizens rights as against their State governments (other than the right to a republican form of government, and the Fourteenth Amendment rights of due process and equal protection of the law). Our system is federal, i.e., the national government only has those powers delegated to it by the States, which are the Federal Government's wellsprings of sovereignty.
 
you'd have to show where the Constitution delegates to the Federal Government the power to enforce citizens rights as against their State governments

You seem to do this a lot. I assume you like playing devil's advocate.

Article I, Section 8, Clause 18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
Article. IV. Section. 1. Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.
Amendment II A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Section 2. <snip- 3/5s compromise repealed>
Section 3. <snip- rebels cant be in congress unless they make nice>
Section 4. <snip- debts of the confederacy will not be repaid, sorry france>
Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article. (redundant?)
 
Sistema1927 said:
Why do we think that the Federal Government forcing the states to do ANYTHING is a good idea?

According to the US Constitution, the powers not specifically granted to the Federal Government are reserved to the states.

States rights, folks, states rights.

Normally I agree - but when various states strip citizens of their right to self defense, I would have to support this initiative.

I do not recognize anyone's right to strip law abiding citizens of their right to be armed.
 
RealGun said:
Yes, I think that could be the State's argument. And who would be the likely mediator when State's licensing requirements are different enough to cause a dispute? Enter the federal government with more involvement than you ever wanted.

States are already forced to recognize other state's marriage certificates and driver's licenses regardless of the requirements of the other states.

I see no reason why CCW should be any different. Certainly driving a car is MUCH more dangerous than CCW - to yourself AND others - and the stats prove that.

I would argue that if states do not recognize other state's CCW permits, then they not recognize drivers licenses either. Wouldn't that be grand? Really put the screws to everyone - but hey we should apply the same "logic" across the board.
 
mmike87 said:
I do not recognize anyone's right to strip law abiding citizens of their right to be armed.
+1. I think when states trample on the rights of their law-abiding, federal law, if it upholds those rights, should rule and to hell with that state. I couldn't say I'm sorry if federal law intervened ON MY BEHALF, in my own state. Sorry but I'm selfish that way.
 
Article I, Section 8, Clause 18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
I didn't say the Federal Government was not delegated powers.
Article. IV. Section. 1. Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.
This is not carte blanche to enforce any right the Federal Government says someone has. It has specifically to do with public acts, record and judicial procedings.
Amendment II A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Since this was part of the document which 1) gave the Federal Government its powers, and 2) restricted those powers, it only means that the Federal Government has no power to infringe on the people's right to keep and bear arms. The States are not mentioned.
Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;
This is a restatement of Article IV, Section 2, but implying a power in the Fedraral Government to enforce it regarding the States, but what is it referring to, exactly? It does not have the meaning the current SCOTUS gives it, or it would have had that meaning from day one of the signing of the Constitution. It's purpose seems only to affirm that the former slaves now also enjoy this protection, like everyone else.
nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Yes, this does, as I said earlier, grant a specific power to the Federal Government. Says nothing about guns, though.
Section 2. <snip- 3/5s compromise repealed>
Section 3. <snip- rebels cant be in congress unless they make nice>
Section 4. <snip- debts of the confederacy will not be repaid, sorry france>
Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article. (redundant?)
Ok, these are powers. Where is the power to enforce the right to keep and bear arms, though?
 
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