Naval Rifles

[CapnMac]

That was a problem with the Zumwalts. Shore bombardment was obsolete and the ammo for the small number of ships was too expensive.

It wound up much more complicated than that.

Turns out that non-precision shore bombardment could be a very good thing in case an opposed amphibious landing was wanted. (It's also has utility for unopposed landings once those are discovered and responded to.)

Problem being that hitting the shore line (and inshore targets) is different than hitting ship-sized targets at range. The goal, from around 1905 or so in ship v. ship gunnery, was to get all the rounds into an ellipse about twice as long and twice as wide as the target vessel(s). Ideally you wanted 50% to hit in the exact dimensions. The ship designers then coped with all the compromises to make the ships tough enough to endure such a slugfest while maneuvering and getting their own "licks" in. This gets to be a complicated, four dimensional calculus on how to lay the guns and discharge them. ( A single nautical mile is about 2.5 seconds at 2500fps mv.)

So, it;s one thing to lay off the coast and bring up ships with 8" or 16" rifles and blast away. The Mk 15 8"/55 could reach out 15 miles with 300# shells. So, you could put a Des Moines class cruiser five miles off shore and get rounds inshore ten more miles, terrain permitting. The 20 mile range of a 16"50 rifle gives you another five miles' reach. But, for various reasons, we let all the "big gun ships" become either museums or razor blades. Which leaves our Navy with only the 5"/54 in its various forms through the Fleet.

Now, the Mk 45 5"/54 is a spiffy bit of kit. Right around a 12 mile range, and a speedy turn of speed cranking rounds out. But, at five miles offshore, you are only really getting about five miles inshore, and that's terrain permitting (from the rather "flat" trajectory of the rifle, handy for sea surface targets).

The problem of late being that five miles is considered "close inshore" any more. A missile at 500mph covers a bit more than eight miles in a minute, which is not a lot of detection time while busy raining shells down on shore targets.

So, the Zummwalts were meant to capitalize on the millions (and millions and millions) spent on rail gun/linear accelerator weapons. Which have fascinating performance. The problem being that the stresses on the payload used are an entire order of magnitude greater than equivalent conventional artillery rounds. So, they wound up super spendy. (It did not help that they were expected to be 'multi-mission' warheads). So, "economy of scale" was required to "pay for" the ammo for the Zummies. So, they needed to build around three dozen to justify buying enough ammo for them.

But, when they went to test the weapons & warheads the results were not stellar. More than one report compared the success to that of the Gyrojet pistol. There were some problems with the sea-keeping of the Zummies, too. So, they reduced the order to around 10. That, then made the ammo some ridiculous price, like around US$10 million per each (or about the cost of 6-8 Tomahawk cruise missiles per each). Which then cancelled the ammo order, which is what saw the Zummwalt program reduced to the three ships actually laid down.

 

[CapnMac]

What always surprises me, was the weight of a turret. There were three turrets on post WW1 American battleships.

One Iowa class turret was almost the weight of an entire Fletcher class destroyer! .

Cool coincidence, I have toured both of those. Alabama is the last of the South Dakota class ships built. She carries the Mk 6 16"/45 rifles. I've been to her sister, Massachusetts, over in Fall River, MA. I've toured all three of the Fletchers preserved in the US. Cassin Young probably offers the best view of how the 5" guns were served, if not with a lot of docent guidance. The Sullivans is a better tour, if a person is in Albany; but USS Kidd, in Red Stick, LA is the best of the lot.

 

[rabid wombat]

One Iowa class turret was almost the weight of an entire Fletcher class destroyer! .

Dad loved that, and quoted it often! He served on DE’s in WWII, and various other duties for Korea and Vietnam. Sounds impressive, but he was the luckiest guy in the world! As a 19 year old Ensign Gunnery Officer, he was prepared for the invasion of Japan and Truman saved him. For Korea, he protected the coastal state of Kansas from the invading hoards. He never left home long enough to make it to Vietnam.

 

[GEM]

Slamfire - the derringer was for when the turret was on fire or you are underwater, waiting to drown. Thus, the risk of accidental explosion really didn't manner. It was to chose a less awful death.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Slamfire - the derringer was for when the turret was on fire or you are underwater, waiting to drown. Thus, the risk of accidental explosion really didn't manner. It was to chose a less awful death.

I tend to agree with Slamfire that this was a rare/unusual/if ever practice. Spark hazards are very real down in the powder magazine, you had to wear special shoes down there.

The other reason I doubt that story is more of a logistical question, "Where would they carry it?"

A .41 caliber derriger is a small gun, but not that small. The US Navy personnel worn regular dungarees when manning the turret, this attire would not provide any convenient place to carry a pistol. In a fit of cheapness, Navy dungarees had small patch pockets both front and rear that makes carrying anything bigger than a cigarette lighter uncomfortable.

 

[codytrucker]

I tend to agree with Slamfire that this was a rare/unusual/if ever practice. Spark hazards are very real down in the powder magazine, you had to wear special shoes down there.

The other reason I doubt that story is more of a logistical question, "Where would they carry it?"

A .41 caliber derriger is a small gun, but not that small. The US Navy personnel worn regular dungarees when manning the turret, this attire would not provide any convenient place to carry a pistol. In a fit of cheapness, Navy dungarees had small patch pockets both front and rear that makes carrying anything bigger than a cigarette lighter uncomfortable.

View attachment 1207405

I would agree with Slamfire , too . Everybody on board a ship is in danger of fire and drowning . And sharks if you have to abandon ship !

 

[GEM]

The idea was that you couldn't get out of a major turret. Also, the story said it was in footwear or socks against the leg. If this is true - I dunno.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

My grandfather Frank Cormeir served in the #2 turret to an 8 inch rifle on board the USS Tuscaloosa, '37 to Dec '45. That was his battle station, while his duty station was the crane operator for the retrieving the seaplanes they carried for spotting the artillery aboard, among other things.

I recently bought a Italian Made Carcano, sold to the Japanese in 6.5 Jap, as the Type "I" Navel rifle.

I still kick myself for not buying the one and only Type-1 Ive ever seen in the flesh. It was a gorgeous, probably unissued, Beretta-produced example complete with sIing and bayonet. The shop only wanted $500, but back in 2015 that seemed like a lot for either an Arisaka, a Carcano, or the love child of the two...... Lol.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I would agree with Slamfire , too . Everybody on board a ship is in danger of fire and drowning . And sharks if you have to abandon ship !

My buddy was a Gunner's Mate on the White Plains in the '80s. As the best marksman on the crew, he drew the unenviable task of shark watch whenever there was an overboard incident. As he explained it, the M14 was 50% for the shark and 50% for the swimmer, depending on who got to who first.

 

[Jim Watson]

Where would you shoot yourself with a .41 Rimfire Short to insure sudden demise?

 

[codytrucker]

My buddy was a Gunner's Mate on the White Plains in the '80s. As the best marksman on the crew, he drew the unenviable task of shark watch whenever there was an overboard incident. As he explained it, the M14 was 50% for the shark and 50% for the swimmer, depending on who got to who first.

My brother was a pilot rescue swimmer on the Long Beach , nuclear cruiser . If there was a shark attack , it was his job to jump in and help !!!

 

[GEM]

I

Where would you shoot yourself with a .41 Rimfire Short to insure sudden demise?

I imagine if you put it in your ear, that would do the job. Terrible thing to contemplate. I also read that MacArthur carried one when he went ashore in the Philippines in the rare chance that the Japanese captured him. Is that true? Who knows?

 

[lysanderxiii]

Also, if I were the turret officer, I wouldn't want my crew thinking about offing themselves in an emergency, I would want them trying to put the fire out, no matter how much of a forlorn hope it might be, the rest of the ship might be in danger. And, if there was a flash fire from propellant, and you were in that compartment, I don't think you would have time to worry about much.

Major Francis John William Harvey, R.M.L.I. (Royal Marine Light Infantry) Recommended for posthumous Victoria Cross. Whilst mortally wounded and almost the only survivor after the explosion of an enemy shell in "Q" gunhouse, with great presence of mind and devotion to duty ordered the magazine to be flooded, thereby saving the ship. He died shortly afterwards.

The initial explosion killed or wounded everyone stationed in the gun house itself. Harvey, despite severe wounds and burns, gave orders down the voice pipe for the magazine doors to be closed and the magazine compartments to be flooded, an action which would prevent the cordite in the magazines detonating. Turning to his sergeant, the one man still standing, Harvey instructed him to proceed to the bridge and give a full report to the ship's captain Ernle Chatfield (a standard drill in damage exercises). The sergeant went immediately to the bridge and notified the captain of Harvey's actions before being taken below to have his wounds dressed.

In the Transmitting Station below the armoured deck, Stoker 1st Class William Yeo was entrusted with passing on Harvey's last orders. The magazine was consequently flooded and locked up within minutes of the hit. However the cordite charges which had fallen down from gun house after the hit were not removed to safety, and there were still ready charges in the working chamber. A large number of crewmen still remained in the shell room, magazine handing room and working chamber. The fire which was thought to have been put out after the hit on the turret gained strength and ignited the remaining cordite charges, setting off a large explosion at 16:28 which killed the turret crewmen, the flame of the explosion reaching as high as the top of the ship's masts. Even with the precautions taken in hand, the magazine doors were later found to be severely buckled – only the seawater in the magazine behind it prevented the blast reaching inside.

Armor plate from the roof of Q turret, showing where the German projectile impacted at the joint of the roof and front plate.

 

[Jim Watson]

Didn't Jellicoe say "Something is dreadfully wrong with our ships". Or was it Beatty? Or anybody, really?

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

After the Queen Mary blew up, Beatty said to his Flag Captain "There's something wrong with our bloody ships today, Chatfield !"

 

[rabid wombat]

Major Francis John William Harvey, R.M.L.I. (Royal Marine Light Infantry) Recommended for posthumous Victoria Cross.

Never confuse the caliber of the man with the caliber of the gun… true heros!

 

[Slamfire]

I would agree with Slamfire , too . Everybody on board a ship is in danger of fire and drowning . And sharks if you have to abandon ship !

If someone with a spark making device managed to set off the gunpowder in a turret, and that explosion extended to the ship magazines, the complete ship would be destroyed. There are a number of famous magazine explosions, the Maine, HMS Hood, HMS Vanguard. If anyone survived, it was due to some miraculous combination of events.

Trusting a billion dollar ship to some E-1 with some cheap derringer, the half cock probably worn, is not prudent. I am very, very sure, no one got to bring his own personnel sidearm, flame thrower, pack of grenades, phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range, onto any ship. If you had a firearm, you were trained on it, and it was part of your MOS. And the Captain was in his full rights not to issue you any firearm at all, if he thought the safety of the ship was in issue. Sailors are expendable, so are crews, but ships, ships are expensive!

This happens to be a letter to the editor in the May/June 2020 Handgunner

Military Gun Nonsense
The recent shooting at NAS Pensacola reminded me the navy has long been politically correct regarding handguns. During the Korean police action I served in the Orient as a line officer on board an attack transport. When in port the officer of the deck was required to carry an unloaded sidearm. We were not even permitted to possess a loaded magazine on pour person. I tried to object to this state of affairs, but you can well imagine how much weight the opinion of an ensign might carry. It was explained to me there are three ways of doing something-the right way, the wrong way, and the navy way. It was further explained the pistol was not to considered a weapon, but a symbol of my authority. Personally, I regarded it more as a bullseye on my back.

Robert Harrison

Let's create an urban legend. American TV's and movies have thousands of car explosions. Usually it is the bad guy getting his at the very end of the story. The car, with the baddie inside, goes off a cliff and immediately explodes in the air ! Big badda boom.

Obviously the automotive companies have placed an altimeter bomb in vehicles. This bomb is adjusted so that if the vehicle goes off a cliff, the altimeter/accelerometer sensing device detects the rapid descent and pressure loss, and sets off the bomb, saving the occupants from a long and terrifying fall to their death. It just stands to reason.

I do think this is why safety belts were so resisted back in the day. After all, having seen thousands of cars blow up in mid air, and believing that what is on the boob tube is reality*, it would be very important to quickly bail out of your car, before it went over the cliff and blew up!

It is a could be, I remember people telling me how "their Uncle was able to save his life from a burning vehicle" etc, because he did not have a safety belt.

* Many people believe what they see is real. The Navy and Coast Guard received letters from viewers asking why either service could not send a ship over to pick up the castaways on Gilligan's Island! That time Americans demanded the Coast Guard rescue the cast of Gilligan’s Island

 

[Jim Watson]

An overused cinema trope is the guy walking away from the scene of his latest derring do and pushing a button so the vehicle or building behind him out of focus blows up.

I well remember the days when it was common to hear "I ain't gonna wear a seat belt, if I have a wreck I want to be thrown clear." No doubt based on all those movies of burning cars. What, did he have a Pinto? I think the video of the driver being thrown out on the first bounce and being run over by her own car on the second bounce might have damped that down a bit.

Somebody identified the make and model of the Minnow and concluded that Gilligan et al were on an isolated island 41 miles from harbor.

 

[codytrucker]

If someone with a spark making device managed to set off the gunpowder in a turret, and that explosion extended to the ship magazines, the complete ship would be destroyed. There are a number of famous magazine explosions, the Maine, HMS Hood, HMS Vanguard. If anyone survived, it was due to some miraculous combination of events.

Trusting a billion dollar ship to some E-1 with some cheap derringer, the half cock probably worn, is not prudent. I am very, very sure, no one got to bring his own personnel sidearm, flame thrower, pack of grenades, phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range, onto any ship. If you had a firearm, you were trained on it, and it was part of your MOS. And the Captain was in his full rights not to issue you any firearm at all, if he thought the safety of the ship was in issue. Sailors are expendable, so are crews, but ships, ships are expensive!

This happens to be a letter to the editor in the May/June 2020 Handgunner

Military Gun Nonsense
The recent shooting at NAS Pensacola reminded me the navy has long been politically correct regarding handguns. During the Korean police action I served in the Orient as a line officer on board an attack transport. When in port the officer of the deck was required to carry an unloaded sidearm. We were not even permitted to possess a loaded magazine on pour person. I tried to object to this state of affairs, but you can well imagine how much weight the opinion of an ensign might carry. It was explained to me there are three ways of doing something-the right way, the wrong way, and the navy way. It was further explained the pistol was not to considered a weapon, but a symbol of my authority. Personally, I regarded it more as a bullseye on my back.

Robert Harrison

Let's create an urban legend. American TV's and movies have thousands of car explosions. Usually it is the bad guy getting his at the very end of the story. The car, with the baddie inside, goes off a cliff and immediately explodes in the air ! Big badda boom.

Obviously the automotive companies have placed an altimeter bomb in vehicles. This bomb is adjusted so that if the vehicle goes off a cliff, the altimeter/accelerometer sensing device detects the rapid descent and pressure loss, and sets off the bomb, saving the occupants from a long and terrifying fall to their death. It just stands to reason.

I do think this is why safety belts were so resisted back in the day. After all, having seen thousands of cars blow up in mid air, and believing that what is on the boob tube is reality, it would be very important to quickly bail out of your car, before it went over the cliff and blew up!

It is a could be, I remember people telling me how "their Uncle was able to save his life from a burning vehicle" etc, because he did not have a safety belt.

There is video/moving pictures of the Arizona going up from a hit to the magazine . Not much time to get your derringer out ! And what about the engine/boiler room crew , and everyone else who's battle station is below decks ? Also remember they will dog the hatches and counter flood crew in , if its needed to save the ship ! I have one great uncle left , he's in his mid 90's and was on a battleship in WWII . If your at sea in a combat zone , your in eminent danger all of the time , And it doesn't matter if you are an Admiral or a cook . I would imagine having anything on you that could cause a spark would be treated the same as smoking on deck at night or anything else that jeopardizes the ship or crew . Straight to the brig with the possibility of getting shot ! This sounds like an urban legend to me , too .

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Yes, putting military personnel on duty with weapons but no ammuition...on another board I visit someone mentioned an incident at Fort Knoz in the 1970s. 2 Basic Trainees were put on a remote guard post with weapons and no ammuition. "The commander of the relief arrived with their replacements, found them roughed up, tied up- the weapons were not recovered." Several more recent veterans told me they did the same thing in the panic that followed 9/11, so if you wanted and M-16 or an M-4, you knew where to go.

 

[lightman]

I've always been interested in Navy Guns. A friend regularly visited the Knob Creek Machine-Gun Shoot and they always had some neat stuff for sale. One year he brought back a granule of powder from one of the large battleships. It was about the size of a 35mm film canister. (remember those) I understand that their charges were bagged so someone somewhere must have opened one?

 

[lysanderxiii]

And the grains are not just dumped into the bags, but neatly arranged in layers. The top of the bag gets loose grains added to adjust the charge weight.

The broken grains are actually not good. I believe this photograph was from the a report on the poor condition of the propellant after the Wisconsin mishap. A few things stand out: 1) the discoloration, indicating the propellant is breaking down, and 2) the broken grains which will change the burn rate, both of these will result in higher chamber pressure.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Yes, putting military personnel on duty with weapons but no ammuition...on another board I visit someone mentioned an incident at Fort Knoz in the 1970s. 2 Basic Trainees were put on a remote guard post with weapons and no ammuition. "The commander of the relief arrived with their replacements, found them roughed up, tied up- the weapons were not recovered." Several more recent veterans told me they did the same thing in the panic that followed 9/11, so if you wanted and M-16 or an M-4, you knew where to go.

There was an incident back in the early 1960s at Parris Island where a young recruit was put on guard duty, given one clip of eight rounds, and told to follow his eleven general orders. After the club closed for the night, a couple of cadre personnel wandered by and started to give the sentry a hard time. Being drunk, they tried to take his M1 away from him, whereupon he shot one of them stone dead. A Court of Inquiry into the incident found the recruit justified in the shooting, but did dock his pay for the cost of the ammunition, 10 cents, I believe.

 

[CapnMac]

When "In Port" (this is along a pier, at anchor or on a mooring) an officer will be assigned as a Officer of the Deck. That worthy is to challenge all persons leaving or entering the ship, and is posted to the Quarterdeck for that duty.

By long-standing USN custom, said officer carries around a cumbersome telescope. That symbol goes back to when officers supplied their own telescopes as a badge of office, and as a way to identify who was coming out in a boat to render proper Honors (this might include Gun Salutes, back in the day, along with finding suitably sober Side Boys.

Also, by long USN tradition at "foreign ports" the Officer of the Deck was to have a sidearm. Until about 1905, that meant a sword as well as a pistol. Part of that was so that a junior officer would present the correct amount of Pomp and Circumstance to whatever local dandy or potentate who had come huffing & puffing up the accommodation ladder. However, prudence dictated that Junior Officers, like Barney Fife were best not left under-supervised with live ammo and only their imagination (and the Boatswain of the Watch). Hence the modern-day (as in, since like 1930 or so) business where the OOD gets a web belt and a leather holster, and a sidearm from the Arms Locker, but no magazines. (Sometimes a magazine carrier pouch is on the web belt, sometimes not, it's not filled if issued out.)

On most ships, there's only a sort of cubby for shelter if it's raining, or blazing sun, Junior Officers always have more duties than hours in a day, so that telescope can wind up a major PITA, and you will have signed for it on taking the Duty, so if it goes walkabout while one is cramming for an upcoming exam and the curst thing goes walkabout, the temptation to bludgeon suspects with that elebenty-pound 1911 becomes very high.

And, yes, it's high military Kabuki. A test, a test to see how well you tolerate the intolerable; how well you can both delegate, and manage that delegation, and do so in a manner not resembling treading in golf cleats on your own crank.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I went through Army BCT in the Summer of 1967, we got bayonet training with the M-14, learned all the buttstrokes, etc.