(NC) Arsenal discovered in city man's house

Tamara · Apr 16, 2003

Score one for Geech...

(This warrant has the legal consistancy of soggy Charmin...)

Hkmp5sd · Apr 16, 2003

Why is the mere presence of SBS enough for a warrant, though?

In my opinion, it does not. I believe the proper course of action would be for the LEOs to first contact ATF and see if there was a SBS registered to the owner/resident of the house. ATF requires owners of NFA weapons to keep them updated on where the owner of the weapons lives or where the weapons are securely stored if not at the owner's residence.

Secondly, they could wait for the homeowner to return home and ask to see his Form 4. If he refuses to show them or doesn't have one, then they would have grounds to acquire a warrant and enter his home.

Given that they now believe he has an illegal weapon, then they also now have probable cause to search his home for any other illegal weapons and run the serial numbers of any firearms he possesses.

Geech · Apr 16, 2003

It was a rhetorical question. I think he can probably get off scot-free with a competant lawyer.

WonderNine · Apr 16, 2003

"Having an possibly unregistered SBS in view and seen by a LEO through a window is probable cause for a search warrant. - Hkmp5sd"

Really? Enjoy your new police state.

:cuss:

WonderNine · Apr 16, 2003

"I believe the proper course of action would be for the LEOs to first contact ATF and see if there was a SBS registered to the owner/resident of the house." - Hkmp5sd

I believe the proper course of action would be to go eat some donuts and leave the gun owner the hell alone.

You don't have the PROVE what you own is legal. The burden of proof is not on the citizen, the sooner you realize that the better. That's why America is so great.

Hkmp5sd · Apr 16, 2003

You don't have the PROVE what you own is legal.

That is a grand thought and one I'm sure that the founding fathers intended when writing the constitution. However, in the country we live in, the laws requires the owner of a NFA firearm to show his documentation when a LEO wants to see them. This is no different than being required to show your CCW license if a LEO notices the gun you're wearing. Of course, you can forgo the CCW and carry based on the 2nd Amendment. I'm sure the LEO would be satisfied by that.

We can jump up and down and quote every constitutional, ethical and moral reason in the world for owning firearms, but in the real world, if you want a SBS, you either acquire it legally and provide documentation when required or you acquire it illegally and risk 10 years at Club-Fed if you get caught.

hammer4nc · Apr 16, 2003

Interesting how these stories seem to be rorschach tests showing people's overall acceptance of authority. Serfs vs. rebellious outlaws, each group would say of the other.

Being that I live in NC, and just happen to have left for work leaving the door ajar yesterday (what a coincidence, eh?), I thought to measure my HD shotgun: 18" barrel, and 28.25" overall (factory barrel, not cut down). Ah, relief! Yet, losing but a quarter inch of barrel (or a cop with an inaccurate tape measure!), and 2-1/4" of plastic, would send me to the greybar hotel for 10 years...or worse, as Randy Weaver would testify.

You guys amaze me with your logic.

I'm searching for the logic of this particular regulation, in any context whatsoever, and coming up "short"...but stand ready to be persuaded by other serfs...er, members, who seem to be more comfortable, or knowledgeable on matters "logical". I even won't be offended if you call me an "outlaw", for questioning this and other like statutes. Thanks.

DeltaElite · Apr 16, 2003

Based upon the articles information.
The cops saw an illegal weapon while there on a legitimate check welfare and got an appropriate warrant for the remainder of the residence.
There was no false arrest, he was arrested and placed in a patrol car while the warrant was served.
They decided to release him instead of booking him, while the attornies decided whether or not to press charges, which I am sure they will.

He won't see any of his guns again, since he will be a prohibited possessor for the sawed off shotgun.
He violated the law, whether or not you agree with it, frankly I couldn't care less about a sawed off shotgun, but he knew better and now will pay a price for violating that law.

The cops did nothing wrong and appear to have acted appropriately and within the constraints of the legal system.
If this guy had acted within the constraints of the legal system, we wouldn't even be talking about him.
He chose to violate the law and now he will pay a price for that choice.
Of course it is more fun to blame the cops and try to make the gun owner into a Martyr, but it is not a realistic view of the incident.

I am betting this guy will get probation, prison time for this violation would be a shame.

WonderNine · Apr 16, 2003

Based upon the articles information.
The cops saw an illegal weapon

A short barreled shotgun is not illegal.

DeltaElite · Apr 16, 2003

Good point, I stand corrected.

However, it won't invalidate the warrant.

Edward429451 · Apr 16, 2003

So is the constitution merely cliche' now? Do we have rights or not? Shall not be infringed. Hmmm, what could that mean? I wanna cut my SG barrel off. They say pay me 5 bucks and we'll let you cut it off and if you don't pay the 5 bucks we lock you up for 10 years. What kind of crap is that? So he didn't pay em the 5 bucks, that don't reasonably give them the right to rape his home and property. I could see giving the guy a fine maybe even holding the SG until he pays. To go further than that with the mans household property is tyranny plain & simple. Run your serial numbers there at the house, if they check out ok, set em back down, give the guy a ticket for the SG, take the SG, and get the heck out of my/his house. Picking up 'extras' on the way out of the house is state sponsored tyranny and theft and should be met with violent resistance.

You guys amaze me with your logic. Police bad, gun owner good. A little too simplistic in my opinion.

Don't over-simplify it. This isn't police bad, LEO bashing, its 'administration bad', where will it end? The poor LEO is kind of in the hotseat though, will they not let them be amicable and reasonable or is it a power trip of individual 'bad apple' officers? 5 freakin dollars. Maybe citizens should be amicable and just pay the 5 bucks and be done with it? Show of good faith. Fine, I would. If they absolutely carved in stone that there would never be any more gun legislation added beyond what is in place, I'd agree and abide by the 'laws' even though (we all) I know what the founding fathers had in mind, and that is 'shall not be infringed' period. But I/we're already amicable in respecting the 'laws' as is. Is it not reasonable to expect a two way street with the good faith & reasonableness? If this wholesale seizure of property is what we can expect from a 5 dollar unpaid fee, where will it end? Time to start thinkin about where to draw the line. Where do you draw your line? If they say everybody with an extended tube on their SG has to pay 5 bucks, will you? No more speedloaders? You gonna toss em out? How bout your last 22 single shot, will you draw the line then? You'll be wishin you drew the line sooner. Its really none of their business if the guy wanted to cut down his SG barrel, he wasn't a criminal. The 'administrative procedure' (??) of wholesale search & seizure for a 5 dollar unpaid fee IS criminal. You guys who're sticking up for them should think this through some more.

Oh but they'll lock me up for 10 years. (they really want your whole life from cradle to grave). Oh but they'll kill me. So what. You still gotta stand up to the criminals no matter what the disguise or uniform. Ladies lay down for the rapist and make it easy for them? I don't think so.

(Rant Off) :neener:

JohnBT · Apr 16, 2003

So...you're for gun control?

MR
__________

No. Your momma might think you're cute, but I don't. Anyone who chooses to ignore the law does so at their own risk and shouldn't go crying about how the law shouldn't be that way. Maybe it shouldn't, but it is.

I'm for reality checks. The law is what it is and the enforcement of it is usually fairly easy to predict. This story falls smack dab in the 'dog bites man' genre - it's not in the least unusual. It is not a 'man bites dog' story if you know what I mean. The dumb guy left his door open and the gun out in plain view - based on what the story has to say.

I'm still amazed at the number of members here who would, it would seem, argue against the law of gravity if it offended their personal view of how the world should work.

The police in this case did what they're paid to do. I'm assuming of course that they didn't see a shotgun with a 28 inch barrel that had been cut down to 24 inches and just decided to call it a sawed-off shotgun. Sawed-off typically means shorter than allowed by law.

I wonder if he made the sawed-off shotgun? Isn't that an additional charge to the one for possession?

I hope it all works out for him.

John

DeltaElite · Apr 16, 2003

How did you know that I am offended by gravity?
Are you with the Govt?
Where's my tin foil hat? :neener:

mercedesrules · Apr 16, 2003

(JohnBT)Your momma might think you're cute, but I don't....
I'm still amazed at the number of members here who would, it would seem, argue against the law of gravity if it offended their personal view of how the world should work.

I honestly wondered where you stood on gun control since you seemed to have no problem whatsoever with the laws concerning shotgun barrel length and gun taxation.

If the gun laws are as immutable as the laws of physics, I guess we're wasting our time discussing them. And please, John, leave my late mother out of this.

MR

tyme · Apr 16, 2003

WilderBill · Apr 16, 2003

Ya know, if you leave something of value, like say, a shotgun, out in plain sight, then someone without regarde for private property might just take it.

I personnally don't care what you've got, but could ya'll please not leave it in plain sight where it will irritate or tempt anyone?

hammer4nc · Apr 16, 2003

Incidentally, the guy has been charged, but has been released on his own recognizance (has to be some redeeming value to North Carolina, right?) Latest update: http://www.newbernsunjournal.com/Details.cfm?StoryID=8390

JohnBT posted:

The law is what it is and the enforcement of it is usually fairly easy to predict.

SBS violation is predictable. The "weapon of mass destruction" charge seems to be a little over the top and a new twist, though.

Unreasonable, draconian, illogical laws can be quite predictable.

DeltaElite · Apr 16, 2003

Weapon of mass destruction?
WTH are they talking about? :fire:

This is insane, totally freakin insane. :banghead:

cool45auto · Apr 16, 2003

He wasn't charged with any crimes but they're keeping his guns and ammo? :fire:

:banghead:

KMKeller · Apr 17, 2003

Tyme, you have to consider the environment when looking at a bunch of those laws. Most were enacted to counteract and deal with rampant KKK organizations in the heart of the bible belt...

Tamara · Apr 17, 2003

JohnBT,

The dumb guy left his door open and the gun out in plain view - based on what the story has to say.

Call me crazy, but the back bedroom hardly qualifies as "plain view".

If a cop can just stroll on back to your bedroom to see if there's anything illegal laying around back there that he may want to get a warrant for, then why, pray tell, bother with the warrant thing in the first place?

"Hi! My name's Officer Smith. I'm gonna search your house and see if I find anything that gives me probable cause to get a warrant to search your house."

I guess that must make sense to someone...

Tamara · Apr 17, 2003

tyme,

North Carolina is kinda the California of the South. They actually have to get a signed permission slip from their local sherriff's office to buy a pistol.

DeltaElite · Apr 17, 2003

The cops were there on a check welfare, which means they have to check every room to see if someone is there that needs help, but is unable to respond, sometimes sick or dead.

I have found several dead, from various causes.
Now as to why they were there on a check welfare, is an entirely different issue, but the courts have recognized the validity of an officers presence due to a check welfare.

Plain view simply means it was out in the open and they didn't have to open drawers or search for what they found.

The legal basis for their presence, the finding of the weapon and the warrant that followed are well founded in the legal system.

All this Weapon of Mass Destruction is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard.

If I had seen the same SBS, I would have said, "cool" and left it at that, since I find the law to be ridicilous.

Here is an explination of the plain view doctrine. The actions of the officers appear to have met the criteria of the plain view doctrine.
Plain View Doctrine

tyme · Apr 17, 2003

Yeah, or a crossbow.

I'm well aware of the legislative history behind things like mask laws, but that doesn't make any such laws acceptable. They've also had a good while to repeal those laws now, and their failure to do so just proves the Bill of Rights is dead.

"Weapon of Mass Death and Destruction" my eye. My car is a weapon of mass death and destruction; thanks to me, it just hasn't achieved its potential yet.

I wonder if there's room to argue that a federal tax stamp qualifies as a license under the NC "WoMDaD" law.

Tamara · Apr 17, 2003

DeltaElite,

Oh, I'm aware of the legal rationale and standing, I just think it's a load of bovine exhaust (as I attempted to illustrate in my post).

Whether the item was a SBS, a load of marijuana, a smuggled nuclear warhead or whatever, the man had a reasonable expectation of privacy in his own bedroom.

(NC) Arsenal discovered in city man's house

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