ND in a full house.

[Navy joe]

I disagree with the assesment of the Glock "reality." Yes it goes boom, it was designed to. Maybe it is not a good design for people who's reality doesn't include a chamber check. Then again, man before me and myself have been trying to keep from cutting themselves with their knives ever since someone knapped a rock. No matter what sheath and storage we all tried someone cut themselves. For eons we thought if we put guards on them, made better sheathes we could fix the problem, but no matter what we did we kept slicing the crap out of ourselves. So I can't change that reality so change the system I say! No more popping hairs, it is tactical folding butterknives from here on out for me!

I understand the concept of acceptable risk and I can understand why many would not like a glock due to lack of external safety. That said, I still carry one and I check the chamber often. The reality is the gun will discharge if Cond. I and the trigger is pulled. I treat the Glock with the same vigilance as every other pistol I own.

Glad to hear no one was hurt in this negligent act.

Excuse me now while I go blunt my Randall #1 on a belt sander, reality frightens me.

 

[CNYCacher]

There's something wrong with the Glock.
After all, you can't change reality.
There. I said it and I ain't taking it back.

Seems like every time I hear about an ND, it is with a Glock, and usually it has to do with someone about to take it apart.

How much you want to bet that the infamous DEA agent (glock fotay) was about to field-strip it in front of that class of kids.
There is a rather graphic set of pictures of a mangled hand on The Gun Zone along with a story that starts out "I was going to clean my glock when. . ."
A few years back, a state police officer in Syracuse racked the slide before dropping the mag on her service pistol. Thinking it was empty, she shot her neighbor through the floor of her apartment when she attempted to strip the gun.
And now this new story from a fellow THR member.


So you are a firearms designer and you make the decision to design a firearm that needs to be dry-fired in order to take it apart. You tell yourself and everyone that they need to MAKE SURE they check that it's empty before taking it apart and you feel okay about it. However, given the REALITY that every year, there ARE GOING TO BE X number of people who have a brain fart and attempt to field-strip a loaded Glock, it seems to be a bad decision.

I agree with the hypothesis that reality will be as it is, and there is something wrong with the Glock.

 

[helpless]

Or you could just be sure to properly clear EVERY firearm regardless of manufacture.

 

[ConfuseUs]

I agree that prior to stripping and cleaning a firearm the user should remove the magazine and clear the action. However, the gripe about Glocks is legitimate IMHO because the weapon must be dry fired to begin the field strip process. That is an accident waiting to happen, and the likelihood of that accident is increased by sloppy interface engineering on the part of Glock. In fact, that accident has been documented before.

My Hi Power clone does not need to be dry-fired to field strip, and if the field strip is begun without properly clearing the weapon then it will be done in the first step anyway. I appreciate the genius of JMB even more now that I think about that.

 

[Caimlas]

First: I am very glad you, your family, and your pets were unharmed by this. It would really suck to have something happen to a loved one, particularly when you may have been partially culpable for the action.

Second: Hmmm. Cop with a Glock.... where have I heard that before... Something about professionalism? Usually the person says that before they do something stupid, not afterwards (re: boob comment).

I don't really take kindly to someone saying, "hey, if it could happen to a professional, it could happen to you" - that just stinks of elitism. It doesn't matter if the person involved was or was not a boob. What matters is that they were willfully careless, pulled the the trigger on a hot chamber, didn't have the gun pointed in the right direction, and did not handle the gun while in the right (ie cautious) mindset. This is particularly disturbing as there was a house full of loved ones... that is not "professional". That is reckless. You might as well have been playing Russian Roulette.

Again, let me just say that it is the height of stupidity, in my opinion, to issue a weapon without a manual safety to people who do not train regularly or appreciate their firearm for what it is (ie police officers). I can understand keeping the safety off while it's in the holster, even, but at least provide a mechanism to make a trigger pull impossible...

That horrible pit-of-the-stomach "screw up" feeling is really a wonderful gift. (Especially when nobody's hurt.) Hold onto that feeling, cherish it. Bring it up every now and again so it does not fade.

Yep. I'm by no means perfect, but my grandfather brought me up so that to this day, I can't pick up a firearm, power tool, or similar instrument without instinctually practicing trigger discipline, and I can't help but flinch when someone waves a muzzle in my general direction (even after I've just checked the chamber). I am quite, quite conscious of others' poor trigger discipline at the range, gun store, etc. and very seriously chastise myself when I find myself doing the same - all the more so with a hand gun, which is a bit easier to point at someone standing next to you than a rifle.

That said, I think it's foolish to rely on mentally ingrained impulse, just as it is to expect the gun to not shoot when you're not consciously wanting it to (ie people who don't observe the trigger rule with habit). You are human, and therefore you will fail. It just drives me crazy that, with all these Glock ND stories on the internet (and there are quite a few of people shooting themselves in the hand), it's something that keeps happening. And, furthermore, that people don't condition themselves to triple-check the chamber of such firearms before breaking them down, while pointing them in safe directions.

 

[igor]

The dry firing in a safe direction after the chamber double check is the last step of a proper gun clearing procedure, folks. Any gun, not just the Glock. How have you been taught?

 

[Caimlas]

Re: Taurus pistols having the same problem: I'm not 100% sure as to the Glock situation, but at least on my Taurus pt111, you don't pull the trigger until after you've taken the barrel pin out, which requires the slide to be locked back. This all happens after you've removed the magazine. After the pin is removed, the barrel slides around freely (any cartridge will fall out). Then you pull the trigger and pull the slide forward - so there are three times when a chambered cartridge would come out on its own during the process before you even put your finger near the trigger.

Oh, and I don't know anyone who's had a ND; I've asked my family members if anyone has had one (trust me, I'd hear about it if any of them had). But then disobeying one of the 4 rules in my family is like pissing in the holy water at Mass to some families...

 

[Caimlas]

igor, he was taking the gun down, not clearing the gun. Big (though in this scenario, inconsequential, as it'd still have happened) difference.

 

[pax]

Caimlas ~

You would take a gun down without clearing it??

***

I always wonder what part of the Glock manual of arms requires people to point the guns at their children, at their neighbor's window, or at their own left hand while pulling the trigger. I've never seen this in the manual, but so many people argue that Glocks are inherently unsafe that it must be in there, somewhere ...

Here's how unintentional discharges happen, folks: They happen when someone who is irresponsible, distracted, or under the influence of alcohol or drugs handles firearms. And they are directly caused by violating one or more of the four universal safety rules.

If you don't want to shoot your kid, the dog, the neighbors, or your own left hand, obsessively follow the safety rules at all times, and do not handle guns while distracted by other things.

More here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=282550

pax

 

[buck00]

Every now and then you'll read a veteran cop accidentally discharged his Glock (sometimes fatally) while cleaning. I agree the complacency factor is big. * And who hasn't seen the video of the cop in the classroom firing his G22 at the floor in front of 20 kids??

It is the same with guys who hunt. It is often the veteran hunter of 30 years who shoots his buddy because he gets complacent and sloppy.

 

[Zach S]

I believe that some people might not want to admit that it happens.

I'll admit that I've done it.

Like an idiot, I dropped a cocked and locked 1911. Like a bigger idiot, I also caught that cocked and locked 1911. I still have the speaker box I shot and the hydra shock I put in it. Nice little $120 reminder. Dont know where the sub went, that was about another $130. And I normally show it off when someone asks why I do chamber checks repeatedly.

Some would call that an AD, but I dropped a loaded pistol, and then caught it. That's pretty negligent IMO.

Its a scary feeling to fire a gun and not know where the bullet went.

 

[FieroCDSP]

Lets give the Glock design the benefit of the doubt, as it was revolutionary at it's inception. No doubt the lack of disconnect or decocker is probably a good part of it's reliability. Fewer parts is simpler. Nowadays, there is no reason that there shouldn't be a better way of taking it down than dry-firing. True, user error causes the ND's, but designing for safety alongside function is the standard now. I can't help feel that Glock is sinking behind the development trend by not fixing something that can arguably be called broken.
Then there's the 1911, which despite remaining functionally unchanged in design and safety from JMB's original, is constantly revised by companies to appeal to their customers.

 

[Dr. Dickie]

The dry firing in a safe direction after the chamber double check is the last step of a proper gun clearing procedure, folks. Any gun, not just the Glock.

Not for a 1911. Before stripping, you should have the hammer COCKED so you can put the thumb safety on to remove the guide rod spring, not pull the trigger.
You could field strip a 1911 with a round in the chamber and not have it fire (I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOING THIS!!)
I don't think folks are missing the point. Was the ND the result of not following the rules? Absolutely. Is every ND the result of violating the rules? Yup absolutely.
Is designing a gun that makes a ND more likely what you want to do, sorry not to me.
I should be able to walk through downtown at 2AM without being attacked, but I don't do that because that is just plain stupid. Sorry, IMHO designing a gun that requires you to pull the trigger to take it down is just dumb. Of course as long as folks do what they are supposed to do and it is fine, but you have to be pretty young to believe people are going to do what they are supposed to do all the time.
Yeah, I know you can't make it idiot proof, but to make it easier for people to act like idiots in just stupid (IMO).
This reminds me a lot of Pitbulls. Back in the 70s when I was in radio I noticed that every serious dog attack that crossed the wire involved a pitbull. I started telling people to beware of pitbulls. 20 years later, the news media jumped on the band wagon. Now I know that a lot of folks mistreat pitbulls to make them meaner, but the viscous attacks involving that breed started WAY before that, that breed just takes to viscous attacks. Again, just my anecdotal observations. YMMV

 

[ConfuseUs]

I noticed that a lot of ND stories involve dry firing (and thus, "empty" guns). I dislike dry firing for two reasons:

1) Your gun is not intended for dry firing, it is meant to fire bullets. Dry firing is therefore a perversion of your tool. (snicker all you want, folks.) Glocks are therefore the ultimate perversion of design in that to maintain them requires a dry fire.

2) Regular dry firing for practice, maintenance, fighting off the imaginary zombies, etc. is going to result in unintentionally chambering a live round and touching it off eventually.

I like to think I'm pretty smart. OTOH, I have done some pretty stupid things too. I respect my capacity to be stupid a lot more than my intelligence.

 

[anotherKevin]

Pax, thank you for re-posting the four rules; one can never read them enough.

My only gripe is that the Glock, for all it's fine innovation, makes such a bone headed design error that a user should invest in a kevlar pad to make absolutely sure it's safe to dismantle it - as it violates one of the four rules.

 

[pax]

Kevin ~

When handling ANY gun, you need to have a safe backstop.

Doesn't have to be Kevlar ...

At least 12 inches of dry sand would do it. So plunk a fake houseplant into an oversized plastic pot full of sand and stick it in the corner of the room. Instant unloading bucket.

At least 18 inches of solid paper would do it. So take a few old phone books, drop them into a cardboard box, and store the box in the closet. Pull it out when you want to handle a gun or dryfire.

A cement wall or a cinderblock wall with dirt behind it would do it. So if you must handle your firearms in the house, head for the basement.

The ground would do it. Point the gun at the floor of your single-story house.

Lots and lots and lots and lots of different ways to satisfy the "safe backstop" requirement. But it's just downright silly to imply that only Glocks need a safe backstop when you are handling them!

pax

 

[ambush]

helpless,
Yes, Dad screwed up and I'm sure he feels terrible. Tell him not to beat himself up too bad over what happened. Thank God nobody got hurt, learn from it and get on with life. We all make a mistake now and again. How bad were everybody's ears ringing??

 

[anotherKevin]

Lots and lots and lots and lots of different ways to satisfy the "safe backstop" requirement. But it's just downright silly to imply that only Glocks need a safe backstop when you are handling them!

Pax, it's in my nature to defer to experience - I learned that one a long time ago - but I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. I don't own many firearms, but none of them require me to pull the trigger at any time during maintenance. It's my humble opinion that pulling the trigger is the only way I could get them to fire.

UPDATE: I see you have a thread on this, I'll trawl through that for more information.