Neck Tension Problem? 44Special

[hamp sandwich]

Hello fellow reloaders. I'm looking for advice, opinions or funny comments...
I'm loading some 44's up.

Here's what I have:
Brass: RP 44Spc (I don't know how many times fired, but nice clean brass)
Primer: Fed LP (irrelevant to my issue)
Bullet: Berry's 44cal (.429) 240gr target HP
Powder: IMR 4227 13.4 gr (again, irrelevant)
Dies: Pacific 3 die set. 1. FL size. 2. Recap/flare. 3. Seat/crump.

When I get to the final stage, some don't keep neck tension. They can literally be pushed further down with a decent force with my fingers (I'm of average strength), and some are solid as a brick wall.

My initial thought was that my flare was all wrong, but why would only half do this? Maybe the mandrel needs polished?
My next thought was bad brass, but why is it bad/can it be fixed?
My third thought was to just post it here, and see if anyone has experience or good advice.
I've also considered the bullets. They all seem to mic to spec with my calipers..

Thanks for looking, and I hope that y'all are having a great day!

 

[243winxb]

Measure the expander diameter, should be about .427" Is neck tension ok if you dont use the expander? Next is case wall is to thin. Another is sizing die is not sizing the brass down enough. Plated bullets at .429" are undersize IMO. Bullets should be .430"

 

[Dframe]

Also measure length of your brass. If the offending brass is bit short you may not be getting sufficient crimp.

 

[km101]

Dframe hit it right on the nose! Case length is the first thing I would check. I have found significant variation in new brass. So your multi-fired brass may have been trimmed in the past by another loader and may be too short to allow sufficient crimp.

Then I would start on the recommendations made by 243winxb. These are all good suggestions, but checking case length may give you the fastest results.

 

[Salmoneye]

Seat and crimp in two steps, and back off on the crimp...

Over crimping can actually cause loss of neck tension...

 

[moxie]

Crimp has nothing to do with setback. Case neck tension is what does it. And, as Salmoneye noted, crimping can ruin tension. Do as 243 suggests.

 

[g.willikers]

Judging from the pictures on Berry's web site, those bullets might require a taper crimp die.
They appear to be smooth sided, without a place for a roll crimp to grab.
Yes??
http://www.berrysmfg.com/products-c16-44_Cal_429.aspx
If you don't have a taper crimp die, you can quickly find out by using the sizing die to taper crimp, with the primer decapper removed.

 

[moxie]

You don't need a taper crimp die. Just set for as little crimp as possible or "no crimp" and let neck tension do the work.

If you try to taper crimp with the sizer die you could easily squash the bullet.

 

[joem1945]

I don't see any crimp in the pics. Check brass length and find the shortest case. Set your seat and crimp die on that case. Cases may vary by .010 in length depending on manufacture.

 

[gamestalker]

Over belling will create a problem with neck tension, and even more so if the brass lengths vary significantly, some will be belled more, some less, explaining the problem with only some lacking neck tension. Only bell just enough for the bullet to start without shaving, more than that will lead to problems, mouths will prematurely split, and neck tension can also be diminished.

Crimping is not where you obtain neck tension. neck tension is a condition that should be present prior to the crimp. However, over crimping can often decrease neck tension.

I seriously doubt it has anything to do with the die's. other wise you would be having a problem with nearly all of the brass, not just some of them.

My first thought though, is worn out RP brass, experienced this many times with all revolver brass. If you can, after resizing, measure OD, ID, or wall thickness of an offending piece of brass, and then one with good neck tension.

GS

 

[Walkalong]

RP brass tends to be thin. Perhaps the sizer is too big. Resize and seat a couple in two of the offending brass with no bell or expansion at at. If they are tight, the expander is too large. You must have proper neck tension, no amount of crimp can make up for poor neck tension.

I use a medium taper crimp on the X-Treme 200 Gr bullet. They measure .430.

 

[hamp sandwich]

Great advice, y'all. Thank you.

As a rule, I don't bell a case mouth any more than I have to, ever.. As for crimp, same rule. In fact, just enough to remove the bell is what I try to do. I'm ok if it crimps in a little, but not into the bullet so much.

So, I checked my mandrel.. Let's just say there was some stuff adding a little tolerance and abrasion. It's clean and at the correct diameter now though... Should have looked closer initially, but it wasn't so bad that it "jumped out". Since that may have only been a small factor, I'll keep suspect of the brass till I prove the polish job fixed it.

Y'all have been a great help. Thank you all for kicking this around with me.

 

[hamp sandwich]

I wanted to add...

RP brass and .429 projos aren't a great combo. Nothing wrong with either, but the combo is temperamental. Luckily, I have some Hornady projos that measure .430, and they enabled me to use the RP brass. I also have some Fed and Win brass, so my .429 projos can be used as well.

It was a good learning experience! Thanks again, y'all!

 

[Drail]

RP makes the worst brass I have ever seen. Give it to someone you don't like. Federal, Winchester and Starline are all much better quality.

 

[joneb]

RP makes the worst brass I have ever seen. Give it to someone you don't like.

I use use R-P for lead .430-431" it works quite well, my guess to the original question is it is a die problem. If we assume the sizing die is within spec. then we must take a closer look at the flare/expander plug, I have two of these for various cartridges one is stock and the other I turned down to increase neck tension.

 

[hamp sandwich]

"then we must take a closer look at the flare/expander plug"

Yep. There was an initial issue with it. It needed cleaned up. I've since cleaned and polished it, and it works way better. It mics at .427 now, and is smooth. I won't be doing anything else to it.
The projos I originally used were .429, and worked OK in the end. However, .430 projos had a much better tension. So, I switched to them. I'll use the .429's in the Fed brass that I have. I had no issues from the Fed brass.

 

[Lost Sheep]

I am late to the party, but what happens if you size the (R-P) brass, skip the case-mouth belling step and go right to seating the bullet? If you start the bullet very carefully (so you don't crush the case mouth), you should have sufficient neck tension.

If the bullet won't start, just use the tip of the case mouth belling mandrel, but don't go all the way in. (And no snickering about the double meaning.)

It might work if you MUST use R-P brass with the .429 bullets.

Lost Sheep

 

[gamestalker]

Lost Sheep's "no bell" technique is a technique I've used for, well, ever since the .40 cal. came into production. When the .40 came about, all I had on hand was a dedicated 10mm die, and since the bell / expander die wouldn't reach the case mouths, I decided to just skip that step. To avoid problems shaving or crushing case mouths, I started chamfering the inside of the mouths just enough to provide a slight bevel, which allowed the bullets to start nice and straight, and without shaving or buckling cases.

As it turned out, I liked the effect on neck tension so much, I started using this method for all my handgun brass.

But thin brass, is thin brass, thus one must either cull the offending one's, or decrease the diameter of the expander .001" - .002".

GS

 

[mdi]

Seat and crimp in two steps, and back off on the crimp...

Over crimping can actually cause loss of neck tension...

Yep and use larger diameter bullets...

 

[GLOOB]

You might find that the root cause is your sizing die. This is not uncommon, at all. I have 2 handgun dies and 1 rifle die which produce the same problem, due the the sizing die being on the larger end of normal tolerances.

If this is the case, and if you use a SS press, you might find this tip handy. Take note of how much effort it takes to withdraw the expander from the case. When the expander offers good resistance, you can set that case aside for your 429 bullets. The cases if which the expander doesn't drag can be set in the other pile, for your larger bullets.

 

[Hondo 60]

Some people on this forum dislike RP brass.
I have some in several calibers, with no issues.

I had some RP bullets, .224, that I just could not get any neck tension.
Bought some Armscorp bullets & problem was solved.

hamp sandwich - I wish you great success in finding & rectifying the issue.

 

[hamp sandwich]

”just use the tip of the case mouth belling mandrel, but don't go all the way in. (And no snickering about the double meaning.)"

I did this, and it works well.... And I snickered...

"Take note of how much effort it takes to withdraw the expander from the case. When the expander offers good resistance, you can set that case aside for your 429 bullets. The cases if which the expander doesn't drag can be set in the other pile, for your larger bullets."

I tried this as well. It worked great too.

 

[RealGun]

Try different dies. Yours are likely sized to accommodate lead bullets. Of course, the easier solution is to use either .430 bullets or not to use any bullet without a crimp groove. A roll crimp is essential in most cases, making neck tension less of a factor.