danez71
Member
And to further that... see my post #55 on page 3. In regards to that post, the only way to know is to review ALL the paperwork, not just the RFP or the contract to Sig; I mean ALL the paperwork involved.
Need a 9mm
- Thread starter Oolong
- Start date
- Status
And to further that... see my post #55 on page 3. In regards to that post, the only way to know is to review ALL the paperwork, not just the RFP or the contract to Sig; I mean ALL the paperwork involved.
vba
Member
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2008
- Messages
- 345
You forgot Les Baer.
MTMilitiaman
Member
I always thought the "only buy American" thing was about as Communist and anti-American as you can get. Support the motherland, Comrade, eh? In a capitalist society, we buy what's best with the understanding that it is that competition which drives the market.
Then you turn around and eliminate all the major American brands by name? Seriously? This post is in jest, right?
Then you turn around and eliminate all the major American brands by name? Seriously? This post is in jest, right?
Oh man, my underwear is made in Canada my generic cholesterol lowering drug is from India and my handgun is Austrian.
Please help!There is $100 rebate and free shipping to FFL for first time gun buyer on Remington RP9 from RKGuns.com with right promo code. Offer good from Nov. 1st to Nov. 27th. That brings price down to $229.99 plus FFL transfer fee. Someone said it's like Chinese product bought Christmas Night. Man, Chinese make good guns.
MachIVshooter
Member
No they don't. FTC is very specific about "all or virtually all USA" to wear that badge. "Built" or "Assembled" in USA has a lot more latitude, can be entirely imported parts. But to claim made in USA, it really does have to be made in the USA, save for maybe using a few imported fasteners or springs or somesuch. If the foreign parts content is significant, the manufacturer may lable "Made in USA of domestic & imported/global parts"; they have to add that qualifier. Lying about it can cause the FTC to level fines and sanctions.
Automobiles, textiles and a couple other products aside, nothing has to be marked with country of origin, so it would be exceedingly stupid to falsely claim it.
lsudave
Member
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2007
- Messages
- 1,042
Well, if nothing else it's a good bit of mental exercise; the options are pretty limited. Either a gun you've never heard of and wouldn't trust, or one that costs way more than a competitor. Frankly, I'd be a bit leery of the 1911's, as they'd either be through the ceiling or Filipino-based.
As others state, might want to swap calibers too. 9x19 is a European rd, and if you still consider Glocks, Sigs and Berettas made in the US to be "foreign", I'd say that applies to "foreign" calibers too. Might go .45 acp or .40 S&W (I THINK that was American designed).
I'm stumped... if I'm going with a known, reliable, quality handgun that the average blue-collar American could afford (it SHOULD be something the masses can have, so that eliminates guns above $500), and it isn't from Ruger or S&W... doesn't exist. IMO
As others state, might want to swap calibers too. 9x19 is a European rd, and if you still consider Glocks, Sigs and Berettas made in the US to be "foreign", I'd say that applies to "foreign" calibers too. Might go .45 acp or .40 S&W (I THINK that was American designed).
I'm stumped... if I'm going with a known, reliable, quality handgun that the average blue-collar American could afford (it SHOULD be something the masses can have, so that eliminates guns above $500), and it isn't from Ruger or S&W... doesn't exist. IMO
MachIVshooter
Member
Correct. Both HD and Polaris brands (including Victory & Indian) use around 30% imported components; far too much for a "Made in USA claim"
But motor vehicles are a lot more complex than firearms. I build one-off guns on par with commercial stuff here in my small shop on manual equipment; there are many, many components in an automobile or on a motorcycle that I like the equipment and infrastructure to produce, period. Yes, I could build a car completely from scratch here, but it would not compare to a 2017 anything. My capabilities would have me producing 1960s tech from raw materials, and I'd still have to purchase things like glass, springs.
Yes, by S&W, developed from the 10mm Auto (also American designed, though Norma produced the first commercial ammo). We (USA) definitely lead the pack in cartridge and firearm development. Stands to reason, since about half of the firearms in the world are here, mostly owned by private citizens.
True, but how many read the fine print? They see "USA" on it and all the legal workarounds aren't. Unless it's a Ruger. I believe they microstamp more weasel words inside the letters on the billboard. I read somewhere it takes a scanning electron microscope. : )
In a lot of cases the makers put "US Government Model" on it when that specific firearm was never accepted by the War Department for issue. It's another smokescreen to it's actual country of origin. Gun buyers aren't international legal experts, if it says USA it's where they think it was made. Just like me - I had no real idea my 66 Mustang had a Canadian block or that the factory 5 speed I wanted to put in it was from Mexico. We learn too late and get old too soon.
American gun buyers are doing the same and are largely unaware that it's not a 100% guarantee. Springfields? Here's one explanation circa 2009 which states that all the frames are from Brazil but when 50% of the work is done in one country or another, that determines the "country of origin" rollmark: https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/-/34-69424/&page=1
Which means you can get an Imbel frame with Genesio, Il rollmark on the gun. All it takes is 51% of the work. And they are quite open about it. Now, for someone buying it and seeing an American named city/state, what do they think? "Oh, snap, this is 49% foreign." No, not so much. Even tho the slide, frame, and barrel are Brazilian. If anything it's the few screws and springs which are American, not vice versa. Why? It's the further machining which determines it.
That means if Springfield can do it, others can, too, legally, and it leads to how open they are about it. If they won't tell you, you can't know. It's the 51% rule, and it wouldn't be surprising to discover it's as flexible as the "so called" 80% finished lowers per the ATF. There seem to be more exceptions than a clear black and white line in the sand. Which is the current state of American law.
Here's another vote for Kahrs. My wife and I went from 50 and 40 years carrying revolvers to Kahrs due to revolver like triggers and no safety's to worry about. Straight shooting and reliable and American made.
JR24
Member
I would say comments like this are good at getting folks fired up. Glad you found some new options, this thread has, indeed, been informative.
The problem isn't foreign ideas so much as supporting foreign governments I don't agree with, Germany gets no money from 9mm production, they likely however get a chunk of the money I'd spend buying a glock or sig.
lsudave
Member
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2007
- Messages
- 1,042
Good point, but I would argue that it's just as important to support American intellectual properties as it is to support American labor.
You might say the Beretta M9 decision worked out because we forced Beretta to move production here, or police using Glocks work out because they are now produced in-country. But decisions like that hurt American companies like S&W etc, and you might squeeze out native designers and engineers, which hurts future developments.
You've made your point. When you exclude these three, there really isn't a major U.S. OWNED company left that makes a quality 9MM. So is your goal to get a 9MM, or make a political point? There are many quality 9MM's made in the U.S. by foreign owned manufacturers. Glock, FN, Dan Wesson, Beretta, etc. If you don't want any of these and exclude Colt, Ruger, and S&W you just may want to make your own.
danez71
Member
Part of his criteria is that its made in America by an American company. If you think that his criteria might be squeezing out 'native designers and engineers', then it seems like immigration work visas is the only way for your concern to be any concern at all.
I haven't been a big Oolong fan. In fact, Ive been critical of some of his past post.
But I think that most have been taking his OP wrong. I don't think he was trying to make ANY point.
I think he was genuinely asking ' besides the big 3, what other American made and owned companies make 9mm handguns'.
I think,,, and thought from the beginning, that he wants to know what those option are and didn't want forty-eleven posts all saying the same big 3 companies.
Kind of like asking, 'besides Glock, HK, and Sig, what are other European striker fired pistols'?
Thank you. Finally someone understands. Any group based on a expensive hobby is going to produce rabid fan bases, I've seen this with athletic gear, video games, and automobiles. Even with those boundaries set all it did was piss people off that they couldn't say their choice by the criteria rather than not respond at all. I'm happy with the choices I learned about.
lsudave
Member
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2007
- Messages
- 1,042
No, re-read my post.
I said
What I said is along the same lines as what the OP appears to say.
US military went with Beretta, US police went with Glock. Colt and S&W were left out. These were the two biggest/most prestigious US pistol makers, and they suddenly found themselves losing the American market. Without large contracts guaranteeing earnings, it's risky to invest a lot of R&D, creating new designs, etc. The next Browning might be out there in Iowa, but Colt won't take a chance on his designs, as they are scrambling to make ends meet. Something new and revolutionary will probably come from someone that has the capital and time to tinker with it, and can afford to because they have contracts locked in. So that guy would likely go to work for Sig or Beretta, someone like that.
danez71
Member
Isudave, ok, I get what you were saying now.
lsudave
Member
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2007
- Messages
- 1,042
Yeah, it's in response to those who say: no big deal, Beretta, Glock and Sig now make guns in the US, and employ Americans.
They employ our labor, and that's not a bad thing... but the highest R&D and such is still coming from the mothership.
If, say, S&W had won the military contract with a 59xx type pistol, we'd likely still see S&W pumping out metal-frame guns, and original designs. They once had a ton of these guns, maybe more models than Sig currently has. And by all accounts, the 3rd Gen S&W pistols were certainly good enough. I own a 915, it's a nice shooter and will feed almost anything. It's full size, but smaller than a P226 or a 92SF. Same capacity. I wouldn't feel undergunned with one. Same control layout as a Beretta. I can't make mine jam. And it has a nice trigger, with maybe the shortest reset I've felt, and that includes a Beretta, Sig, CZ, and others. It wouldn't have hurt the US to go that route instead of an international company, we'd likely see more innovations from S&W, rather than just 2 polymer lines and a 1911.
jhansman
Member
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2007
- Messages
- 1,113
Failing to read all five pages of this thread, I'll just throw in that Remington is offering rebates on their handgun line right now, among which is a 9mm model. I know nothing about their guns, never owned one, so take it with as many grains of salt as needed.
https://www.remington.com/rebates-promotions
https://www.remington.com/rebates-promotions
- Status
