Need advice for loading .38 special

[SuedePflow]

I'm just starting to load .38 special for the first time. I'm using semi-jacketed bullets for the first time too and I'm having seating issues.

I'm getting varying COL's and furthermore, some rounds aren't seating all the way to the cannelure. It seems the lead is "crushing" down and the bullets aren't moving further down into the case.

Do .38 spl cases require an extra large bell? And do nickel cases require more bell than brass? Any advice would be appreciated. I want to make sure my dies are set right before I prep 1000 pieces.


In this pic, the COL is within .01", but it's obvious that the left one is seated more shallow.

 

[fallout mike]

I would try a bit more bell. I would seat the bullets a bit deeper as well. There is a bit more cannelure left on the right. The left is a bit short of it. You will always have some brass that isn't the exact length. Nickel brass seems to be more brittle than yellow brass. Dont get carried away with the bell on them or you'll start splitting necks.

 

[JerryND]

Unless my "uncalibrated" eyeballs are deceiving me there is a definite difference in the two bullets. Depending on the style of seater the round one on the left did not get down all the way. There is a definite longer lead exposure on the conical bullet on the right.

 

[SuedePflow]

Jerry, both bullets started out like the one on the right. The one on the left smashed down when it met enough resistance in the case.

Both cases in the pic have the same amount of bell. The brass one turned out fine. I assume I need more bell on the nickel cases?

What's a good target COL with this type of bullet? I got mixed answers when checking various manuals. As it stands right now, I was targetting half way into the cannelure, which happened to be right in the middle of the lengths I was seeing in my books.

 

[bluetopper]

You aren't using some type of powder that is filling the case are you?

 

[243winxb]

Are you expanding when you bell? The expander should open the inside of the case so the bullet seats with less pressure. This will help stop the nose getting deformed. The seating stem that contacts the bullet may be of the wrong shape.

 

[ljnowell]

I would think the brass would buckle before a bullet would deform that badly. Are you positive that bullet wasnt different before the seating process?

 

[ranger335v]

All mouth flair does or can do is allow bullets to start without shearing the heel.

It's obvious your nickeled case was much more difficult to seat, the meplat has been deformed by a round nose seater plug. Either the nickle case walls are much thicker (likely) or you have a compressed charge, or maybe a double charge?

 

[243winxb]

The Lee "hammer" loader deforms bullets like in the photo, without buckling the brass. Make sure the bullet is not being crimped to early, requiring more pressure to seat it.

 

[SuedePflow]

You aren't using some type of powder that is filling the case are you?

I'm using 3.2 grains of bullseye. Not even enough to fill half the case.

Are you expanding when you bell? The expander should open the inside of the case so the bullet seats with less pressure. This will help stop the nose getting deformed. The seating stem that contacts the bullet may be of the wrong shape.

I'm using a regular 3-pc RCBS carbine die set. I assume the amount and depth of expansion is simply dependent on how far the I run the mandrel into the case, right?

The die came with two seating stems. I'm using the one that better matches this bullet type.

 

[SuedePflow]

I would think the brass would buckle before a bullet would deform that badly. Are you positive that bullet wasnt different before the seating process?

Really? I wasn't surprised that the bullet gave being that lead is softer than brass.

I'm 100% sure they are identical bullets. I have several that have mushroomed like that.

All mouth flair does or can do is allow bullets to start without shearing the heel.

It's obvious your nickeled case was much more difficult to seat, the meplat has been deformed by a round nose seater plug. Either the nickle case walls are much thicker (likely) or you have a compressed charge, or maybe a double charge?

The rounds in the pic don't have powder in the case, so no chance of a compressed charge. These were done just to test seating while tweaking my dies.

 

[243winxb]

Measure the diameter of the bullets, should be no larger than .358" Then measure the expander diameter, should be about .356" My RCBS expander unit.

 

[243winxb]

The last thing i can think of is, a defective seating die. The inside die diameter is to small. On seating the case/bullet is being sized. The nickle brass wall thickness would have to be greater than the brass case. Measure both over a seated bulllet & compare. The fix is to remove metal from the die in front of the crimping area. Or return to RCBS.

 

[Grump]

This is just poor fit of seating stem to bullet nose.

Friction all around the circumference of the bullet/neck interface is PLENTY to cause what you are experiencing.

One solution is to relieve the seating stem enough so the contact point is down on the jacket rather than on the lead nose.

Too much nose contact on seating can lead to the bullet not being seated straight, with substandard accuracy compared to what the gun/bullet/load combination would otherwise be capable of delivering. I had that quite badly with some 9mms a few years ago. Four-to-five inch groups at 25 yards from a pistol that was always 3 inches or less and often delivered 1.5 inch groups.

 

[243winxb]

Roll or Taper Crimp die? RCBS makes them both way.

 

[SuedePflow]

It should be taper crimp. I'll double check tonight when I get home from work.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Make sure the bullet is not being crimped to early, requiring more pressure to seat it.

I was thinking along these lines myself.

 

[243winxb]

If die is taper crimp, than its an adjustment issue. To much crimp while seating the bullets.

 

[Salmoneye]

Seat and crimp in two steps...

Adjust your die accordingly...

 

[James2]

If die is taper crimp, than its an adjustment issue. To much crimp while seating the bullets.

I am thinking along these same lines. Check the crimp adjustment.

 

[SASS#23149]

one of the most mis-understood things in reloading,especially by new reloaders..and some experienced ones..is how to set up the 1-piece seat/crimp die.Ive read scary accounts of people running the die all the way down to the shellplate just like they do the sizer die.

so,I have to ask since I don't know you or your experience...have you read and followed the directions for the seat/crimp die. ?

one thing I will never do is use the same die for seating and crimpin. Yes,you can do it that way,but 2 dies are way easier to adjust than a combo die is.

check how you have that die set up,let us know if things improve,etc.

 

[Blue68f100]

I think you are crimping before the bullet is at proper seating depth. Back of the locking ring on the die body. Get your depth set right for you OAL and cannelure grove is centered. Once this is set back off the seating plug and run the die body down to do the roll crimp or TC. Then run the bullet seating plug back down and lock.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Really? I wasn't surprised that the bullet gave being that lead is softer than brass

While lead is softer than brass, the cross-sectional area of the brass is so small the load applied cripples the brass.

Seating and crimping 38 spl simultaneously isn't that difficult. Follow Blue68's instructions. The taper crimp should be small.

On the seating stem. If you are going to be loading this bullet in the future, call RCBS. They should be able to machine a stem to match the bullet profile.

 

[gibekim]

Really? I wasn't surprised that the bullet gave being that lead is softer than brass.

I'm 100% sure they are identical bullets. I have several that have mushroomed like that.


The rounds in the pic don't have powder in the case, so no chance of a compressed charge. These were done just to test seating while tweaking my dies.

I would think that the bullets themselves are the problem (IMHO Junk). I am not familiar with partially jacketed bullets, never seen one until now. However, given the fact that there is no powder in the pictured examples, how can the bullet deform as it did? The case wall tension is not sufficient to hold the bullet firmly enough to allow the seating die to deform the lead and if there is nothing in the case to support the bullet, like a double charge of powder, then the bullet should be pushed into the case with little or no resistance no matter how much flare is on the case. Do you know the brinnel of the bullets? Did you measure the diameter? What brand are they? They must be mush.

 

[warhwkbb]

Here's how to set the die...
1. Without using any crimp, seat a bullet to the correct depth.

2. Unscrew the bullet seating stem (almost) completely and screw the die until light contact is made.

3. Continue to screw the die down until the case lip at the cannalure is .002 - .003" smaller diameter than before the point where the crimp begins or about 3\16th below the top of the case.
Your crimp is done! Any more than this, your cases will buckle or the bullets will deform. If you want a harder crimp, you must seat and crimp in separate steps.

4. Screw the bullet seating stem until firm contact with the bullet is reached.

If you use mixed brass, your seating depth and crimp level will always vary. A separate crimp die, or seat and crimp in separate steps is recommended.