Need carry gun, why 1911 instead of Sig or Kahr?

[joey93turbo]

I'd like to purchase a gun for concealed carry. I don't have much to spend by 1911 standards, $500 ($650 max). I've been considering a Sig P220, Sig P239, Kahr PM40, or some flavor of 1911. I currently have a Sig P226 .40 and it's just a pain to try to conceal, I think mostly due to the width.

For the way I dress it seems the only option is IWB. I wear alot of Polo's and button up shirts, untucked, with jeans or shorts in the summer. I think an OWB would print too bad, but I don't know for sure.

I haven't made up my mind if I'd be better off going with a subcompact such as the PM40 and P239, or a full size such as a 1911 or P220. How much thinner is a 1911 than a P220?

You might have guessed by now that I'm a die hard Sig fan, but not to the point that I'm blind to better options if they exist. I do require that whatever gun I purchase lives up to the high standards the Sig's meet when it comes to reliablility and accuracy.

I've shot one 1911, a Dan Wesson double stack, and I was very accurate with it. I think for CCW I should go with a single stack though since I hear the grip is the most difficult part to conceal. I'd like a 1911 with a 4.25" barrel, I think. I hear it's good for a CCW because it's still compact but they don't suffer from the reliablility problems of shorter barreled 1911's. I also like the idea of having .45 instead of 9mm or .40.

I have no problem purchasing a used gun but I don't really know what to look for.

Let me know what you guys think. I'd like to make a purchase very soon.

 

[Krag]

I personally feel that a single action pistol is a poor choice for personal defense UNLESS you are highly trained with it. For CCW a full sized 1911 is an awful big pistol (especially if you live in an area where the weather dictates light clothing) and the sub-compact models are not the most user friendly of handguns. I would recommend a Kahr: small, easy to use, ultra safe and they have models compact enough to carry in the back pocket of your jeans.

Remember one thing, you are going to carry a defensive pistol far more then you are ever going to use it (hopefull never?). You want one that fires an authoritative cartridge (9mm/.38 Spl and up), is easy to use, compact and light weight.

I own about two dozen handguns, including several 1911s. I could carry anything I wanted to from .22 to .45, revolver, semiauto, single stack or hicap. My everyday carry gun is a Kahr PM9 and I feel very well armed, thank you.

 

[hollowpointt]

Kahr CCW

I would have to agree with Krag, I have a P9 for the reasons stated above

 

[Black Majik]

There are a few reasons why people carry 1911's.
- Chambered in .45 ACP
- Quite thin relative to other guns (HK USP's, Sigs etc...)
- Carry condition 1
- Single action (preference)
- Visible hammer. To some people a striker fired pistol makes them nervous.

Now if you wanna stay with Sigs, why not look into a P225. Its a single stack 9mm. Or even a P239. Its the most concealable of the P-series Sigs.

 

[Sean Smith]

I've always found the idea that a 1911 is an "expert's gun" kind of peculiar.

From a safety point of view, you always know when a 1911 is mechanically capable of firing, just by looking at it. If the hammer is back, it can fire. If it is already down, it can't. Noobs understand this immediately: the hammer down is a safe state, and the hammer back is always potentially dangerous. It is one great big visible warning sign.

Now, what gun you carry and what trigger system you use is a matter of personal preference; there are pros and cons all around. A Government Model is certainly a fairly big and heavy gun, but it conceals well for its overall size because it is flat.

 

[lunaslide]

I carry both a Sig P220 and P239 at different times of the year. I can recommend both as carry guns without reservation.

The P239 in particular is great as a carry gun because it was made with concealed carry in mind: all the sharp edges are smoothed out and the hammer bobbed. It is virtually unnoticable when I wear it, even under a light t-shirt. Even so, it is quite comfortable to shoot and is highly accurate.

I never ever worry about either of them firing when needed, no matter what kind of conditions. Be sure also to try out the new DAK trigger at the range while trying out guns.

 

[GreenFurniture]

If you are looking for a carry weapon that will function no matter the circumstances, and will be healthy enough to carry for a looooooooooong time then look no further than the 1911.

If you're looking for something to carry for a little while, until you get past the nervous "rookie" rush of having a gun then by all means get a 1911.

Kahr and Sig are great, don't get me wrong, but why start with something you aren't going to love and cherish years from now.

Look on these boards. There are no more passionate posts than for the 1911.

Yeah.

It's that simple. And you can get the best, Kimber, and still have enough for carry ammo and a decent holster.

 

[LooseGrouper]

For your $500-$650 limit, I think the best CCW bet is a Khar or P239. If you're just smitten with the 1911 design, get one, but you'll probably have to go used. Since I'm not a 1911 afficianado, I can't really help you with what to look for in a good used one.

As a little side note, have you thought about the Paraordinance pistols with the LDA (light double action?) trigger? I've handled these several times but never fired them. They look/feel almost exactly like 1911s but are DAO. As I recall, the triggers were very nice. And they come in .45. I don't hear much about them on the forum, and I'm not sure why. Anyway, the new price for the LDAs is fairly steep ($700-$900?). Again, I think you'd have to go used.

LG

 

[Ala Dan]

Aw! Now here is a good thread~

While a good argument can be made for a quality 1911 as a carry piece,
I personally prefer a SIG-SAUER/SIGARMS P220A in .45 ACP. Why?
One word sums it up, RELIABILITY!

BTW, I have been toting a West German .45 caliber P220A for a long, long
time and she still looks just like it left the factory.

 

[Zundfolge]

Unless you're going to carry a 5" 1911, the smaller ones have a reputation for being finicky and reliability is the name of the game with a CCW pistol.

I CCW either a Kahr MK9 or a Steyr S40 and one thing I really like about both is that all you do is draw and fire ... no safeties or other doo-dads to contend with. Of course with a bit of training that becomes a non issue.

IMNSHO the main reason to consider a 1911 for CCW is if you already have 1911s and shoot them a lot, the second reason is if you have a preference for .45acp ... otherwise the Kahr is the way to go (and I recommend the steel K or MK over the poly PM ... the steel Kahrs have a slightly better reputation for reliability).

What handgun(s) do you have now?

 

[Majic]

Commander sized 1911s are just as reliable as the 5 inchers. When you get down to the 3 inchers you can find some that are finicky.

 

[Edgeofthewoods]

I carry a 1911 as an everyday carry weapon. A Springfield M1911 A! WW2 GI. It cost me a whole 350 bucks. I did have a few FTF's with her but a dremel on the feed ramp and throat, and a Wolf 18.5lb recoil spring fixed that. Only other things I changed where the sights,(25 years ago the military sights where OK but now well lets see things change) to a set of King Combat 3 dots. and a set of Hogue rubber slab grips. The wrap arounds ruined the feel of the gun. Yup it is heavy and being 6'1 and 190 or so pounds, I have never had a problem in carring it or hiding it. In the summer here in NM I just started using a Desantes "Tuck This" IWB holster. WIth slightly loose shorts and a good belt it can't be seen. BTW my belt is a Wilderness in kahki. I like the tuckable since I do not like having my shirt untucked, must be a hold over from the Army. Keeps a neater apperance. But the best gun for you to carry is the one that fits you and your body, you can place your shots where they count and you feel safe with.

Chuck

 

[joey93turbo]

Right now I have a Sig P226 carried mexi-style

 

[Bobby Lee]

If you are looking for a carry weapon that will function no matter the circumstances, and will be healthy enough to carry for a looooooooooong time then look no further than the 1911.

If I was needing a carry gun that is SURE to work 100% in all conditions I would not buy a 1911.

Modern designs have the good old 1911 beat in this dept.

 

[Sean Smith]

Modern designs have the good old 1911 beat in this dept.

Typical amateur response.

 

[Seraph]

How's that Kool-Aid, Bobby?

joey'turbo, nevermind the man behind the curtain. Go to the gun shop and spend a few minutes with a Springfield Mil Spec (not the GI, the Mil Spec, because it's a little more carry-ready). If it seems to like you, take it home, and don't look back. The full size 1911 is very easily concealed for most body types. The 4" or 4.25" models are a little more comfortable for IWB carry, especially when you may have to spend time seated, such as when in a vehicle. My Mil Spec has over 4500 trouble-free rounds through it. It is a relentless tackdriver. Here's a much over-used photo, to get you stoked:

 

[ojibweindian]

Get the Springfield Mil-Spec and let your mind be at ease. I've got a GI and it's a wonderful CCW piece. Reliable in a wee bit over 500 rounds of hard ball and assorted JHP (all 230gr). Accuracy is good, too.

 

[pogo2]

I read the original post over several times, and the poster seems to put high value on the reliability of Sigs for a CCW gun, but wants something smaller than his large P226 for concealment. He also likes .45ACP caliber, evidently more than 9mm or .40 S&W, for stopping power. He is also intrigued by 1911s, but his dollar limit puts many 1911s out of reach.

It is difficult to meet all his requirements in one gun. The one gun that may fit the best is a Glock 36, as it combines his caliber of choice (.45) with the reliability of a Sig, small size for easy concealment, and a price (about $525) that is within his budget.

I don't think a 1911 is his best choice, both because of his budget limit as well as the greater chance of reliability problems with a 1911 compared to his baseline Sig. I have both 1911s and Sigs, and based on my personal experience I have to rate the Sigs higher in the reliability department. While the majority of 1911s will work out of the box, and most of the rest can be made to work if you are patient, I think it is a fair statement that 99%+ of Sigs will work perfectly out of the box.

If he doesn't like Glocks, I'd say the fallback position might be a Sig P245, which gives him the small size for concealment, combined with .45 caliber, Sig reliability and a price that should be within budget, although higher than the Glock 36.

 

[Zundfolge]

Right now I have a Sig P226 carried mexi-style

Well get a holster for your Sig before you do anything else

Since you already have a Sig, getting another Sig would make sense (the P239 is pretty thin and concealable).

However the P239 is only about a quarter inch thinner so if you got a good IWB holster for that P226 of yours you should be able to carry it just fine.

If you want a significantly thinner pistol (and the two most important diminsions for a CCW pistol are thickness and grip length) then a 1911 or Kahr would work better for you then even the P239.

 

[TarpleyG]

Okay, here's my rec.

I own and prefer to carry 1911s, specifically a 4" Kimber (Commander-type). Now, if you can dress to accomodate this fine. I would say picking from your list though and the fact that you are limited to one gun, buy the Kahr, but not the PM40. I'd get a PM9. They are more reliable from what I have been reading and have ample stopping power. I have one and I like it a lot and for a small gun, it's a tack-driver. With this gun you can carry it OWB, IWB, or stick it in your pocket if you want. You can't do all that with a 1911, Commander or not.

Don't limit yourself to just these choices either. I am not (was not--dammit DHart) a revolver guy but I picked up a S&W 642 because the guy was selling it at rock bottom. Now I carry it always, no matter where I am going or how I am dressed.

Greg

 

[Bobby Lee]

Typical amateur response.

My response is from my personal experience with both 1911's and modern gun over a period of almost 40 years.

I was most likely shooting 1911 pistols before some of you "experts" were even born.

It is common knowledge with people with such experience that the 1911 has more reliability problems than good modern carry guns.

 

[Sean Smith]

Wow, you are obviously so much smarter than the Force Recon Marines, FBI and LAPD SWAT, Delta, etc. that rely on 1911s! You'd better go tell them their guns are no good, I bet they could really benefit from your wisdom!

 

[Bobby Lee]

I did not even once say that anyone's 1911 is not good.

I said that on average modern designs are more reliable and I would bet that even you know this to be true. You HAVE to know this if you are experienced with all gun designs.

 

[doofus]

People tend to forget that while there's always something to a generalization, the reason behind the generalization may not be very sound.

Glocks blow up. Why? Because there have been a few KB reports regurgitated ad nauseum on the Internet. Never mind the fact that they've produced MILLIONS of problem-free pistols over a relatively short period of time.

Beretta M9 slides break. Why? Because of a few isolated incidents during the 80s. They've since had a stellar reputation -- this is especially so when one considers the number of M9s in service today.

1911s are unreliable. Why? Because after 90+ years of existence, pretty much everyone has had a chance to produce a 1911 clone of some sort...some with more luck than others. Of course, the uninitiated just see "many unreliable 1911s" instead of seeing some well executed designs, and some poorly executed designs.

The alarmists in our society insure that people tend to remember the bad over the good.

 

[Golddog]

Why 1911?

Trigger pull, trigger pull, trigger pull. Ergonomics, ergonomics, ergonomics.

I've shot all the guns mentioned above, and none, including the Kahr and the LDA, has a trigger comparable to the 1911's. In fact, I can't understand why an accomplished shooter, given a choice, would pick any DAO or TDA system over a single action.

That said, 1911's choke more than any other design, for whatever reasons, so I'm reluctant to gamble that I'll find one of the reliable ones. So I go with a CZ 75/85 B (not the decocker), for its good SA pull and ergonomics. It also allows DA, if that meets your needs. The CZs aren't light, but neither is a steel 1911. The 75B Compact makes the most sense for concealed carry.

A Browning Hi-Power is another possibility, but probably only after a trigger job.