Need carry gun, why 1911 instead of Sig or Kahr?

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I said that on average modern designs are more reliable and I would bet that even you know this to be true. You HAVE to know this if you are experienced with all gun designs.
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Um, no I don't, tough guy. :rolleyes:

And are we to assume that those FBI and USMC trials for new 1911s never happened? The thousands of malfunction-free rounds were never shot? Got any other brilliant insight to impart?
 
And are we to assume that those FBI and USMC trials for new 1911s never happened? The thousands of malfunction-free rounds were never shot? Got any other brilliant insight to impart?
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Would you mind providing some links to those trial results? I had not heard that either of them were testing new sidearms.
 
I carry...

A pair of Springfield Armory MIL-SPEC 1911s. Over two thousand rounds through the guns, and not one malfunction. Not one. Have never had a semi-auto that reliable. Galco shoulder holster balances well. First thing everyone says is "That's a lot of weight". You get used to it, same as with anything. As for it being noticible, wearing them under a polo shirt, none of my employees noticed until I showed them. But then, I'm a pretty big guy.
 
Nineteen-lebm' and Skoal Bandits™

In my experience, I would have to vote against the 1911, and here's why:
I began shooting IDPA a few years back. There are a wealth of 1911's of every brand and price range in the club where I started. I watched every level of the 1911 compete except for IPSC race guns and when the smoke cleared, there were 500 dollar guns that jammed up, and 1500+ dollar guns that jammed up. And the kicker for me was when I was sitting watching someone clear a "house" stage and the old timer behind me said to his old timer buddy "These darn kids can go buy a glock and shoot right with my $xxxx.00 1911. " And I was shooting a sub compact Uzi Eagle in .40 that never missed a beat (which, if you listen to the hype is the biggest piece of junk ever).
I'll accept that the LAPD swat teams and the FBI and whatever other homeland "security" agency there is to throw into the mix prefers the 1911, but I am my own armorer. I don't have a dedicated guy to hand my weapon to and say, "It's having FTF issues. Fix it." the way they do.
I believe that in thousands of rounds fired trials, that quality was established. However, I also believe that if you ask an average American ex-military guy what handgun rules, he'll say "Gub'ment .45" or "nineteen'lebm" faster than you can say Skoal Bandit™. And if you ask a former Cop from Prague what is his favorite handgun, you'll get (most likely) "Czeska Zbrojovka" or CZ75 faster than you can say... something in Czech.
National pride, jingoism, call it what you will. A lot of 1911 choices are made around that idealogy, from what I've seen ("My Grandpa blew a Jap right out of his boots in Iwo Jima with one of these" or "This is what I carried in the Marines" or "If the army uses it, it's got to be good!"). And that's okay, if that's what you want. Jingoism is becoming fashionable again. Having spent time in other cultures in my life, I don't care for that sentiment in my Firearm shopping. So, I shop elsewhere in the gun cases because I feel other types are more reliable.
Not that I'm infallible either. I have a Ruger p345pr .45. :rolleyes:

I've found the Sig Products to be very high in quality with few witnessed (by me) failures though I've never owned one, yet.
 
Well I've owned Glocks, Sigs, Witnesses, Beretta 92s and 96s, Browning HPs,
Springfield XDs, Stars, Tauruses, and several revolvers along with some 1911s.

The Glocks, Berettas, and the XDs were the only semis of the bunch that were as reliable as the 1911s I've owned.
 
And are we to assume that those FBI and USMC trials for new 1911s never happened? The thousands of malfunction-free rounds were never shot? Got any other brilliant insight to impart?
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Did I say this never happened?

Did I say that they did not fire thousands of malfunctions free rounds? Did I say anywhere that ANY of you do not own a reliable 1911?

I don't know what 1911's they were using but I would be willing to bet that they were not off the shelf SA "loaded" models or the average Colt or Kimber.

If one buys 100 off the shelf 1911 pistols such as the average SA, Kimber, Colt or whatever and also buys 100 Glocks or Sigs are you foolish enough to believe that if we tested every single pistol for reliability out of the box with no tinkering with anything that the 1911's are going to prove more reliable?

As I said before it is known by anyone with experience that the above test would be eaisly won by the Sigs and Glocks and this would prove my statement that modern designs are more reliable ON AVERAGE.

You can like it or not that is up to you but you need to accept the facts and lay off the Kool Aid.
 
Bobby, you make some good points, but you also make the mistake of using the generic 1911 and comparing it with a Sig or Glock, which are manufacturers. Get an old Auto Ordinance 1911 and you'll likely find a jam-o-matic. Does that mean that all 1911's are inferior to Glocks? How about I get a Bryco, and prove with it that all Glocks are crap? Why not, they are both striker fired 9mm pistols, right? While we are at it, the Bryco is a far more modern design than the 1911, so it MUST be better, right?

These are responces to generalizations, mind you. But you cannot use a generic compared to a specific and make any kind of conclusing. Can one say that his Honda Accord is more reliable than a truck? It all depends on who made the truck.

Ash
 
It's not the 1911 design that causes trouble. It's modern manufacturing's poor execution of that design.

The original 1911 pistol was made with all bar-stock parts and completely hand-fitted and hand-assembled by trained gunsmiths. Back in 1911, labor was cheap so machining the parts and fitting them was economically practical. Now labor is very expensive. Result: less bar-stock parts and less proper hand-fitting. Effect: Pistols that might not be put together the way John Browning would approve of. Combine this with micro-length pistols and the demand for "water-tight" tolerances, and you have a dicey situation.

The design is not unreliable. If it was, the military wouldn't have liked it when they tortured it. If it was, Colt .45s wouldn't have performed while covered in dirt underground in tunnels in Vietnam or soaked in saltwater and slathered with sand on the beaches of Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Okinawa or Guam.

Do it right and it works.
 
I'm going to throw my insight into this opinion pole.

1: When you look at actual CCW shoots, most take place at around 7-10 yards max. (Any further than that and there's a good chance a jury will be burning you in hell for not running away anyhow. That's not the way most of us would like it but it's the way it is. Thanks a bleeding heart lib.)

2: With #1 in mind, the most important factor is to have a gun and have one that will go bang when you need it to. I don't know how many folks here have been shot at or fired shots in anger before. I have. It sucks being on either end but some things just are what they are and you do what you have to do. Being shot at, whether or not the guy hits you or even near you, is a very unpleasant experience that makes most folks go to ground damned fast.

3: In order to follow the first part of #2, you need to carry something that will not seem to be an inconvinience. This is where small and light are better than big, trendy and pretty. If you actually drop a Smith Snubbie or Kahr, G26 etc...into your pocket and walk out the door, you will fair a damned sight better than the guy who talks about the fantastic 1911 that he leaved in his car or gunsafe because he wants to wear shorts and a T-shirt in the 98 degree, South Texas, 98% humidity heat.

(Here's where I'm sure I've pissed off a lot of 1911 devotes to let me get down to the brass tacks. I think that the 1911 is one of the finest fighting pistols ever designed. It can be extremely reliable, quite accurate, and hits like the proverbial brick bat. The problem is that most of these traits do not coinside in the same 1911. A reliable 1911, one that goes bang consistantly, usually has to run a bit on the loose side. This is OK by me as that is what the design was all about. A tight 1911 will give you sub 2" groups at 25 yrds but will most quite often not be as reliable. Here's where custom smiths come in. They can take one of the two affore mentioned pistols and match up the countering trait to make a fantastic pistol. I've never seen such devotion to pistols that most folks have to pay so much for and then sink more money into making them work. Any other design would be branded as unreliable and flamed on the forums. As long as folks keep reading about 1911s from the popular gun press, they will keep going at it. (Remember that the 1911 saw it's resergence when hi cap mags were banned. It was a power to weight ration question and the money for hi cap pistols was now sitting around waiting to be spent on something.)
Now I'm still not saying that the 1911 isn't one of the greatest designs out there, but open the eyes and look around. The 1911 is also one of the hardest pistols to truely master. Most folks here on the forums that think they are masters of this pistol don't have a clue. I shoot pretty well and don't even come close with the 1911. In my case, it is that the grip frame and my hand don't mix. With one of the later Browning grip shape pistols ie: HiPower, Glock , CZ, Kahr (All Hi Power grip angle copies) the weapon points naturally and I come on target very fast from the holster. The 1911 always points low for me, flat mainspring housing, arched mainspring housing, wedge mainspring housing..it doesn't matter. My hand and the 1911 just don't mesh naturally like other designs. I've shot with several folks who had shot 1911s but never a Hi Power. When they tried my HP most commented on how naturally it points. The effort of working with the 1911 just isn't expended.
As I said at the beginning of all of this, it is my opinion. When it comes to popularity of the 1911, I think that there is a lot of Koolaid drinker syndrome going on out there. Many shooters see what other folks are shooting, read magazine articles and look at what is expensive and popular (popular for reason or not doesn't matter) and then run out and join in. They then spend a lot of time rationalizing to everyone around them about not buying a 1911 because of the previously mentioned reasons.

#4 Practice, practice, practice and then shoot some more. Do dry fire drills. Train at the range accessing your pistol from the place you decide to carry it. Practice shooting from your most inconvinient positions (Murphy's law finds that this is where you will be when you actually need the pistol in play.)
Use the off hand, use the strong hand, practice from a seated sideways position. From the prone (This is where you will find yourself if bullets start to fly. I don't care how crazy, macho or tough you are. When you realize that someone is shooting at you , you will end up hugging the ground. Human reaction is what it is.)

#5 When you think you have practiced enough, do it some more.

Train for the absolute worst and survive to see another day. That's what CCW is about. Not the movie action crap or being a hero.

There are a ton of great handgun designs out there. Look at as many as it takes to find the one that will meet the criteria of survival and go with it.

My 0.02,
Doc
I'm not a master of pistolcraft......I'm just still alive!
 
Oo-rah recondoc. Thanks for bringing this back to earth. Points #4 and 5 are so important, it bears repeating. It doesn't matter worth a damn what gun you are carrying if you don't train with it. The brain is pretty fast, but muscle memory is faster. There are also plenty of other things to be thinking about in a defensive situation without having to think about how your gun works. If you have practiced drawing from carry holster, aquiring targets and firing enough, it will start to become a reflex you can rely on.

There are a ton of great handgun designs out there. Look at as many as it takes to find the one that will meet the criteria of survival and go with it.
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Right. Stop looking at the gun. No matter how pretty or stylish it is, none of that will make a difference when you need to defend yourself with it. Do not be shy about trying out guns at the range. It's the "features" that they don't mention that you will be most interested in. Stuff like ease of function, pointability, quick target aquisition and handling are what matter. Go for what feels natural to your hand and eye, not just at the counter, but on the firing line.

And despite all the koolaid drinking and testimonials, ALL guns jam at some point. Ammunition sometimes fails. It's probably going to be at the worst possible moment. Learn how to deal with it. Intentionally jam your weapon and practice recovering from it. Use dummy rounds randomly mixed in with your live rounds while training and practice clearing them on the fly.

Training is what will save your life, the gun is just a tool.
 
To add my 2 cents, I've carried 1911s, P220s, 92FS, Browning Hi-Power and S&W "J" frame (.38) caliber. If I wear a sports jacket, any of them work for me, with either IWB or OWB. However, without a jacket in the summer, I usually carry the "J" frame with .38 special +P or the Hi-Power in 9mm. I tried the Glock 30 and while it shoots great, for my hands its a tad too small to grab in an emergency. Most people find that "J" frames or subcompacts work best for CCW. :)
 
I've carried a 4" S&W 586 in the sweltering heat and humidity of an Alabama summer. I've carried a CZ-75 in the same environmental conditions. Now, I carry a Springfield GI.

I've not experienced any problems. All I do is carry IWB and wear a loose fitting shirt. I have no complaints concerning comfort.

The manual of arms for a 1911 is not that hard to master, as long as you take the time to learn it. If one doesn't learn and practice the manual of arms for the weapon being carried, then that person has no business carrying.

If someone prefers a Glock, Sig, or whatever to a 1911, that's okay with me. But blanket statements saying that the 1911 is either inaccurate or unreliable, and cannot be accurate and reliable, is a dubious spreading of internet hyperbole (i.e. a crock of H.S.).
 
Return to post, re-read.
1911 pistols can be both of those things. It's just that it will usually cost some bucks. I'm not knocking the 1911.
The point that I'm trying (and probably not very well knowing the way I rant) to make is that there is a lot more out there than the 1911 and that training is much more important that the pistol itself. This is especially true for about 90+% of the CCW carriers out there. A lot of advertising initiative is taken by firearms companies to sell folks guns. That's what they are in business for so I don't fault them for doing what they do.
Most shooters don't spend enough trigger time to really wring the features of a particular design out.
I've personally done shooting packages with tens of thousands of rounds in a 3-4 day session with different weapons. (Your tax money paid for the ammo and I thank you all very much.) I still don't consider myself a master of any of the various weapons I've trained with. There are many folks out there who are a hell of a lot better than me.
Learning a manual of arms and mastering a weapon are two different things. Taking a 4 day course at one of the many fine shooting schools in the country doesn't make one an expert. It will help them learn. What makes an expert is to practice, practice, practice. Most folks, myself included these days, don't have the budget to put all of the rounds down range that they need to build and maintain true proficiency with a given weapon.

I'm glad you mentioned the 586. I think a huge portion of the shooting world, most law enforcement officers as well, would be better healed with a solid wheelgun than the autos that are so easy to buy.

Not internet Hyperbole, just my observations.
Doc
 
I'm an SA native. I finished up my time with Uncle Sam in 04. Now I answer to CiNCWIFEPAC at Ft. Livinroom. :) Getting fat and raising my kids.
Doc
 
These are responces to generalizations, mind you. But you cannot use a generic compared to a specific and make any kind of conclusing. Can one say that his Honda Accord is more reliable than a truck? It all depends on who made the truck.
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When the average guy talks about buying a 1911 they useally are buying a SA, Kimber, Colt or other factory gun.

I don't care which factory non custom 1911 you buy there is more of a chance of it being unreliable OUT OF THE BOX than a Sig or Glock or a few more.

You people know this.

Now there is nothing wrong with a good 1911. I have owned a few myself and I have also owned a lot of junk 1911 pistols from the so called good makers.
 
It's not the 1911 design that causes trouble. It's modern manufacturing's poor execution of that design.
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That is true.

But no matter what the cause it does not change the fact that you can buy a $1,000 high end factory 1911 and it can have problems.

There is no sure thing when it comes to the average out of the box 1911.

You can't inform the average new gun buyer that if he buys a SA Loaded Model 1911 or a certain Kimber it WILL be reliable out of the box like the 99.9% of Glocks, Sigs, H&K's, and a few others are.

You can say that if one buys a good custom 1911 like a Les Bear it will be perfection out of the box but I don't think the origional poster that started this thread wanted to spend that kind of money.
 
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Personally, I think 1911's are great to shoot (if you can afford .45acp) and great for concealed carry (if you can stand the weight).

If you want a lighter pistol that's cheaper to practice with, get the Kahr.

The Sig P239 is a great pistol, but too fat and heavy for a single-stack 9mm, IMHO.
 
Gotta agree with Recondoc...

It's a no-brainer that with increased accuracy, reliability goes down the tubes. Everyone talks about Kimbers and other pricey 1911s, but I am more than happy with my basic model 1911s. There is no doubt in my mind that when I pull the trigger, they will fire, and they will put the bullet reasonably close to where I want it to go. No, they will not drive tacks at 100 yards, but that's not what they are for. As recondoc stated, 7-10 yards is about it. I spend many hours at the range, and have seen the difference between reliability and crap. (Anyone ever see a TEC-9 jam?) Personal carry guns are a matter of personal choice. I personally would not trust my life to any other sidearm, based on personal experience. I have owned hundreds of guns over the years, and I can say this; The two of the three most reliable guns I have ever owned accompany me wherever I go. The other is a HK91 clone. 3000 rounds with out a misfire or jam. Not bad for $400 from Ohio Ord. Back to the carry guns. I could afford Gold Cups, Kimbers, whatever I wanted. Decided on the Springfields because of the reliability factor. They do take some geting used to though. I personally like the accuracy of the Glocks, but I have seen too many people have problems with them. I had a Sig p-226 many years ago. I remember not liking it, but for the life of me I cannot remember why. Maybe it was the 9mm. Anyway, love the 1911s. Love .45 ACP. Don't mind the 7-shot mags. Trust them with my life.
 
Back on topic here:

My favorite carry pistol is a Kimber compact. It has an aluminum frame. The frame is a .5" shorter than a fullsize and that makes a world of difference on me. I was amazed at how much easier the shorter grip was to carry.

I also carry a PM9 regularly.

I dress very similar to you and when I do I have on the Kimber with absolutley no problems. At work I have to carry the PM9. I also carry the Kahr when I have a tighter Tshirt on and the Kimber would print.

I can shoot rings around thr Kahr with my Kimber which is important to me plus I prefer the 8 rounds of 45 to 7 of 9mm.

In summary if it was a pistol to carry dressed as you describe I'd go with a larger pistol like a 1911. If money was going to be tight for a while and this will be your only carry gun I'd look at something like the Kahr which can serve all your needs from carrying in a suit to sweats to jeans and a polo.

If your keeping the Sig you could always get a holster for it and get a smaller pistol like the Kahr. When clothing permits slap on the Sig, when more concealment is needed carry the Kahr.
 
If you like Sigs,the 239 is a great carry gun. Get a GOOD holster and a GOOD belt and just carry it. BTW that goes for ANY carry gun! If you really have to try a little 1911,the little guys are notoriously picky about the ammo they like and can have reliability problems so make sure you put plenty of your *carry load* through it before you trust it (actually that goes for all carry guns too). If it`s not reliable for you heck there`s a whole industry built around making 1911s work right just get it tweaked and away you go. 4"+ guns are much better and you`ll probably be fine without any extra work. If not,see the previous sentence. If you`re leaning toward a Kahr I`d suggest a P-9 or P-40 for all but pocket carry. They`re much easier to shoot well and control than the PMs,they`re ultra slim (the grip is .85" thick!), super light (16.5oz.) and amazingly accurate for their size. The smallest/lightest 1911s and Sigs are noticably thicker and heavier. The Kahr P series would be (is) my choice. I still often carry my full sized CZ-75B (sometimes 2!),5" S&W 1006 10mm etc. even on the hottest days with no problems but frankly my P-40 will do exactly the same job,just as well and carrys/conceals effortlessly. That`s my logic and my needs though. At the end of the day get what you think is gonna work best for YOU and who cares what we think? :D Marcus
 
because despite what they tell you

A a good single action will make you a better shooter that a good double action. My then 14 yo daughter was able to shoot well enough to qualify for her ccw on her second time shooting for score, of course she was not old enough, but she would have passed the test.

B A normal 1911 in a combat build will ALWAYS work. internal extractor no mind. but if you build it to JMB's prints, It Will Work. PERIOD,

C marketing exec's need to be dragged in a pit of broken glass. Everyone tries to tell you that they have the perfect fix for the 1911,
 
In all of my previous ranting, I forgot to mention that my Wife's carry piece is an Officer's Colt in .45. It fits her hand like a glove, she grew up shooting with her DEA agent Dad and has been through Gunsite. (Any questions as to why I married her? :) )
I tend to be the one who tinkers with different pistols. I have my favorites.
For Texas summer carry the Kahr P9 is tough to beat. I also have a very fond place for the CZ P-01, the Glock 19 (Although astheticly it is just butt ugly) and the pinnacle of JMB's designs, the P-35 Hi Power (Those babies have lines like a fine ladies legs.)
Doc
 
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