Need experienced long range shooters input

[Breakmyfootoff]

I'm looking for a "does everything well" rifle in the AR platform. OK, maybe not everything, but at least four things.

1: I want something with an effective range at least out to 300 yards for deer and hogs. I would prefer to have enough energy for deer and hogs out to 500 yards, but realistically, the longest shots would probably be 300.

2: Accuracy for target shooting out to 600 yards, not really competition, just recreational shooting.

3: Ammo readily available without reloading.

4: Not cost more than 1500.00 for the initial purchase of the rifle, which I assume limits me to offerings from Dtech, Armalite, DPMS, and perhaps the lowest price Fulton Armory offering for 1599.00. I'd love to just get a Noveske or Knights Armament, but I'm on a meager fireman's salary

This is a quote made by taliv in another thread about these calibers vs .308.

260rem 6.5x47 and 6.5 creedmoor are all better choices

He obviously does a fair amount of long range shooting, and I value his input. Rather than hijack that thread with my questions I decided to start this one.

What makes those better rounds? Are the terminal ballistics better? Better range or accuracy? What about cost and availability of ammo, or reliability of feeding in an AR platform rifle?

I've been under the impression that .308 was the way to go for my needs, but I'm definitely open to suggestions from those of you that have more experience doing this type of shooting. I was liking the fact that .308 was easy to find, and still pretty cheap compared to some of the others (like 6.8 or .243WSSM), but I wouldnt mind spending a little more for ammo since this is more of a special purpose rifle instead of a plinker like my 5.56. or AK.

 

[wanderinwalker]

I've been under the impression that .308 was the way to go for my needs, but I'm definitely open to suggestions from those of you that have more experience doing this type of shooting. I was liking the fact that .308 was easy to find, and still pretty cheap compared to some of the others (like 6.8 or .243WSSM), but I wouldnt mind spending a little more for ammo since this is more of a special purpose rifle instead of a plinker like my 5.56. or AK.

For your described needs, I would agree that a .308 would likely be the first logical choice. It's readily available and has a plethora of factory loads to choose from based on your needs. Out to 600 yards you'd be well served with a good .308. (Actually, if you hadn't specified wanting to use it for hogs and deer to 300 yards, a .223/5.56 fits your other 3 criteria very well also.)

The point taliv makes about the 6.5mms is that they are better long-range cartridges than the .308. The bullets have better BCs and can be launched at similar or even higher speeds than the .308 is capable of. A 140gr 6.5mm match bullet out of a .260 is about equal to a 190-200gr .308" bullet from a .300 Magnum in terms of drop and drift downrange, with considerably less recoil and noise. (Luckily I'm hoping taliv, Zak Smith and others will be along to correct me if I've mis-remembered this part.)

3: Ammo readily available without reloading.

To me, point three is the biggest constraint from your original criteria. This "limits" you to the more common chamberings like the .223 and .308. And you may not always have exactly what you want; you're not guaranteed to find a box of .308 Match at every local gun store when you want to do somme 600-yard shooting with friends at the range. But you can at least find some .308, which is not always true of the 6.5 Creedmoor, .260 Remington and 6.5x47mm.

 

[Fat_46]

I am by no means a great long distance shooter. I shoot alot of prairie dogs in the 400-600 yard range, and generally can keep 4 out of 5 on a 24" gong at 1000.

With that disclosure:

There really isn't a magic round for long range shooting. While some are better than other in terms of ballistic coefficients it really comes down to the shooter and the rifle.

With that being said - remember the three tenets of shooting, long range or other, for accuracy:

You need good equipment, including optics.
You need ammunition tuned to your equipment
You need practice.

Make sure you budget allows for these factors, or you are going to end up disappointed.

 

[Breakmyfootoff]

Thanks for the input wanderin, thats exactly the kind of knowledge I'm seeking. I do already have an extra 5.56 lower waiting to grow into a rifle, so if one of the alternate cartridges for the 5.56 lower would meet requirements 1 and 2, I would be willing to fudge on number 3, and number 4 would be easy considering I already have the lower . I just need to be sure that it has the necessary punch to humanely put down animals at 300 or so yards. I understand the importance of shot placement, but caliber cant be ignored either. A Stag or Palmetto State upper in 6.8 would come in well under budget, and of the alternate calibers, 6.8 seems to have the largest following (and therefore availability) but does it have the power necessary for deer and hogs at 300 yards, or will I find myself passing on longer shots with it?

You need good equipment, including optics.
You need ammunition tuned to your equipment
You need practice.

Sound advice that I typically follow unfortunately, the city determines my budget, so i do the best I can

 

[madcratebuilder]

4: Not cost more than 1500.00 for the initial purchase of the rifle, which I assume limits me to offerings from Dtech, Armalite, DPMS, and perhaps the lowest price Fulton Armory offering for 1599.00. I'd love to just get a Noveske or Knights Armament, but I'm on a meager fireman's salary

I would say a used LMT MWS or new ArmaLite. Going to be hard to find a used LMT for 1.5k, they run 2k used. The ArmaLite well have a lifetime warranty and be in your price range. Have you considered the 6.5Grendel? Grendel ammo is becoming more mainstream and Wolf is reported to be coming out with steel case 6.5g at very affordable pricing, .25-30 cents a round.

 

[Breakmyfootoff]

Wolf is reported to be coming out with steel case 6.5g at very affordable pricing, .25-30 cents a round.

Yes, I have considered 6.5 Grendel (I really like what I've read about it better than 6.8), I was just under the impression that it was harder to find than 6.8 SPC. Looks like I need to invest some more time researching 6.5G.

 

[taliv]

fwiw, i shot a lot of squirrels and rabbits in the 1980s with 22LR. beyond that, I have absolutely zero first-hand experience or knowledge about hunting or terminal ballistics.

My comments were strictly about getting the bullet to the target. Once it arrives, I honestly don't know whether 6.5 or 308 bullets would be better.

that said... i believe shot placement trumps caliber so i would pick something i could hit with.

if you went with the DPMS 260rem, I think that would satisfy all of those requirements. Both black hills and southwest ammo make 260rem.

 

[68wj]

The biggest limiter, I think, is your ammo availability concern. Check your local market and look online to see what you can buy in the cartridges you are after. I wouldn't hesitate to get something in a 6.5 cartridge/AR-10 type setup, but I handload. Without that, I would be looking hard at the 7mm-08 (even as a handloader, I would still be looking at it).

 

[blackDdefense]

LMT MWS. If you can't afford it...wait till you can. It is built on the SR-25 lower with a free float barrel and to my knowledge LMT and KAC are alot of the same parts except for the upper. Also, if you want to have other caliber options, you can just buy the other barrel from them. 6.5 creed, 7mm-08, 260, .308, .338 FED. I have personally shot mine 4.5" groups at 600 with black hills ammo. These things are awesome because of the two torque head screws and a quick barrel swap. Pigman is now using them.

 

[Cop Bob]

#1 Choice... .308 LR ballistics are there, great selection of QUALITY Factory loads... Plenty of good plinkin ammo available..
#2 6.5 G

 

[sixgunner455]

the only AR I've shot that was bigger than a 5.56 was a POF .308 with a Zeiss optic on it. I think it's a bit out of your budget, but ... that is one sexy beast of a rifle. Absolutely dead-on drilling targets way out there, not just 'making a hit', but drilling it dead.

That experience has launched my interest in larger calibers and longer-range shooting.

I would not hesitate to get a .308 if you are interested in it. It is the most available in terms of guns, off the shelf ammo, and has the most brass available if you decide to reload. There are calibers with better trajectories, and those that may have other advantages (my hunting rifle, for example, is a .243), but there are some undeniable advantages to the .308.

 

[Zak Smith]

I would recommend an OBR in .308 based on your wants/needs. Ammo everywhere. The ones I have seen in the hands of skilled LR shooters shoot great.

 

[Breakmyfootoff]

Thanks for the input everyone! Exactly what I needed to help me decide. I'm going to continue researching the 6.5 Grendel to determine if it will fit my needs. Since I already have a complete lower ready, this would be my least expensive option, and therefore, my first choice. If I find through research that the 6.5G doesnt meet my requirements, then I'll just build this lower as another 5.56 and get an AR-10 or LR-308 for hunting.

 

[Breakmyfootoff]

Didnt want to leave the thread without an ending, so I figured I would post my findings. I researched 6.5G, 6.8 SPC, and .308 for 2 days until I finally reached the end of the internet .

6.5 Grendel looks like a really good round. I would even venture to say that it might be better than .308 for long range target shooting, but it was designed as just that. It retains lots of velocity and energy, but may not be designed as well for transferring that energy to a live target. There are very limited choices in 6.5 Grendel when it comes to rifle manufacturers or ammunition, and I would have to mail order pretty much every round shot through it. Also, the price of building a rifle for 6.5 Grendel are very close to that of a complete .308 AR

6.8 SPC also looks pretty good. Not as good at long range as either .308 or 6.5G, but "probably" a solid deer and hog round out to 300 yards. It would meet my range requirements, but only just, and with little room for error. This round is really designed by soldiers for soldiers with the intended purpose of killing people. There is at least a dedicated hunting round available at my local Academy Sports and a complete Stag upper can be had for about 600.00. I really like this option, especially since I can combine a 600.00 upper with a lower I already have and be ready to go.

My conclusion is that the .308 is the best for my needs, however, I think the 6.8 might also accomplish what I ask, and for about 50% of the initial cost. I think I will get a Stag 6.8 upper and try it out. If I like it, then I'll be satisfied for at least a little while. If I dont like it, I can sell the complete rifle, add some cash, and get a .308.

Thanks for the input everyone. The opinions really did help in my decision making process, as well as pointing out some things for me to research and decide on my own. I am grateful to all of you here at THR for the generally good attitude and knowledgeable/helpful people.

 

[68wj]

There is at least a dedicated hunting round available at my local Academy Sports and a complete Stag upper can be had for about 600.00.

A few good options (and you may save a little money for ammo).
http://www.ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/1973/1976

http://bisonarmory.com/store_1618_mid.htm

http://www.surplusammo.com/products/Bushmaster-6.8-SPC-16%22-M4-Upper-Receiver-Assembly-with-Magazine.html
I have shot some of Academy's 6.8 offering and they performed very well in mine, but they want too much. Academy is handy if you just need a box last minute, but several places online beat their price by about $5 a box for the same stuff and have a broader selection.

Hope it helps.

 

[Get R Done Guns]

Would definitely do .308 or maybe 6.8 spc. Based on the input you give the 308 fits about every bill.

 

[Breakmyfootoff]

Thanks for the links 68wj, that Bushmaster upper looks like quite a deal. Complete with BCG and I really like that it is chrome lined and uses 4150 steel for the barrel.