Need help choosing WWII USA milsurp

[USSR]

I think your argument is one of picking at nits. "Standard issue" removes from the argument rifles which were issued to specialty people, whether you are talking about a squad automatic weapon, armored division, or snipers. I don't have the reference in front of me but it is my understanding that both the 1903 and the 1903A3 were used as sniper weapons...

You are talking about totally different weapons. Yes, the Marine Corp's M1903A1 with it's Unertl 8X scope was it's "standard" issue sniper rifle. Note: this is not the same as the 1903 Springfield rifle which was being phased out. Also, the Army's 1903-A4 was it's "standard" issue sniper rifle. Again, this is not the 03-A3 rifle. Picking at nits? No, just being accurate like our armed forces are when standardizing on and issuing rifles. Still waiting for WWII combat pictures from someone showing our guys using 03-A3's against the Germans or Japanese.

Don

 

[Kernel]

This is pic is just cool............

Who could put them all back together blindfolded? How long would it take?

 

[Reloadron]

You are talking about totally different weapons. Yes, the Marine Corp's M1903A1 with it's Unertl 8X scope was it's "standard" issue sniper rifle. Note: this is not the same as the 1903 Springfield rifle which was being phased out. Also, the Army's 1903-A4 was it's "standard" issue sniper rifle. Again, this is not the 03-A3 rifle. Picking at nits? No, just being accurate like our armed forces are when standardizing on and issuing rifles. Still waiting for WWII combat pictures from someone showing our guys using 03-A3's against the Germans or Japanese.

Don

OK, you want a picture? Here is a picture:



I am sorry the file size is about 3 MB. Following a scan and conversion I had to keep the image file size pretty large. If you look closely at the shooter in the foreground (Top Image) just behind his pinky the word "Hell" is written on the stock, I haven't a clue what else was written but the image looks better full size.

So here we have American soldiers shooting at Japanese using an M1903A3 and a M1903A4. This is the image I referenced in an earlier post which you apparently felt did not exist. Try as I will Don, I can't change history and that is the way it was in Burma, 1945 as US Soldiers engaged the Japanese.

I agree the use may have been limited and the quantities may have been limited because as you stated, and is very true, the M1 Garands were common place by 1945. I also spelled that out above.

Ron

 

[rondog]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/04/james-grant/gun-review-m1903a3-rifle/

 

[USSR]

Reloadron,

Appreciate you finding and posting that photo of the 03-A3. That is only the 2nd that I have seen, and appears to be the only one showing it actually being used in combat. I would be interested in knowing what unit is involved in that photo. It appears that the guy behind the M1919A4 is Burmese, so I am wondering if perhaps this a case where the army unit is operating with local resistance fighters who may have been supplied by us with 03-A3's? Something that we will never know, but in any case you have found a photo of an 03-A3 being used by a U.S. soldier, so I congratulate you.

Don

 

[Reloadron]

Don,

All I can say is the photo was scanned from one of my books. Can you imagine how many pictures like this were archived?

It appears that the guy behind the M1919A4 is Burmese.

Till you mentioned that I never noticed but yes, he does look to be Burmese. Working with the resistance makes sense I guess but who knows. The pile of spent brass is interesting.

Have a good one....

Ron

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I think the Joe in the bottom picture on the right is holding an M1 Carbine. Both of those pictures (I believe) are a good indication of the variety of weapons that are used in warfare whether they are "issued" or not. My nephew who spent 20 years in the Special Forces used a large variety of weapons depending on his assignments. The weapons ranged from the shortened M4 to AK-47's and at least 4 different pistols because he didn't like the "standard issue" 9MM pistol. He normally carried 4 different weapons with him while on an assignment and used the one that best fit the situation.

 

[cluttonfred]

Some other options per Wikipedia...

List of secondary and special-issue World War II infantry weapons

United States

High Standard HDM pistol
M1941 Johnson rifle
M1941 Johnson machine gun
M42 United Defense submachine gun
M50 Reising submachine gun
M97 Shotgun (Used in the Pacific War)
M12 Shotgun (Used in the Pacific War)
Ithaca 37 (Used in the Pacific War)
Browning Auto-5 (Used in the Pacific War)

Of those, why not a High Standard pistol, maybe even pay the tax stamp and create a recreation of an HDM from a basic HD pistol?

 

[fpgt72]

Never knew they used the auto-5....I have one of those things...they do pack a punch.

 

[cfullgraf]

Yes, the Marine Corp's M1903A1 with it's Unertl 8X scope was it's "standard" issue sniper rifle. Note: this is not the same as the 1903 Springfield rifle which was being phased out.

I am under the understanding that the M1903A1 is a rebuilt/overhauled M1903 with a pistol grip stock ("C" stock). Most or many were done in the late 1920's.

But, I've slept since I read that.

 

[USSR]

Actually, I believe they started life as match rifles with star gauged barrels, but I am at work now and will need to check Brophy's book about the 1903 Springfield rifles.

Don

 

[Reloadron]

Some other options per Wikipedia...

List of secondary and special-issue World War II infantry weapons

United States

High Standard HDM pistol
M1941 Johnson rifle
M1941 Johnson machine gun
M42 United Defense submachine gun
M50 Reising submachine gun
M97 Shotgun (Used in the Pacific War)
M12 Shotgun (Used in the Pacific War)
Ithaca 37 (Used in the Pacific War)
Browning Auto-5 (Used in the Pacific War)

Of those, why not a High Standard pistol, maybe even pay the tax stamp and create a recreation of an HDM from a basic HD pistol?

I am not real sure about the Browning Auto 5?

Browning would later license the design to Remington, who produced it as their Model 11 (1905–1948). The Remington Model 11 was the first auto-loading shotgun made in the USA. Savage Arms also licensed the design from Browning and produced it as their model 720 from 1930 to 1949.

The Remington Model 11 Riot Gun and the Savage Model 720 Riot Gun were both very popular WWII shotguns and while both guns are clearly the Browning design (that unmistakable Browning Auto 5 look) I can't find any reference to an actual Browning Auto 5 being used by US forces?

I see the following shotguns used by US Forces during WWII:

Winchester
Model 97 trench guns, riot guns and training guns.
Model 12 trench guns, riot guns and training guns.

Stevens
Model 520-30 trench guns, riot guns and training guns.
Model 620A trench guns, riot guns and training guns.

Ithaca
Model 37 trench guns, riot guns and training guns.
Interesting note is that Ithaca completed its military shotgun contracts by the end of 1942 to concentrate on manufacturing the M1911A1 .45 pistol. All in all Ithaca only produced 1,420 Model 37 shotguns making them very rare.

Remington
Model 11 and Sportsman riot guns and training guns.
Model 31 riot guns and training guns.

Savage
Model 720 riot guns and training guns.


I can scan some images if anyone has an interest in any of these shotguns.

Ron

 

[cfullgraf]

Actually, I believe they started life as match rifles with star gauged barrels, but I am at work now and will need to check Brophy's book about the 1903 Springfield rifles.

Don

Don, at least from one source, we are both correct.

Bruce Canfield says in his "An Illustrated Guide to the '03 Springfield Service Rifle", pg 107-108.

The "C" stock was initially used in 1929 on National Match rifles and liked so well that the "C" stock was approved for use as the "S" stock supplies were exhausted.

To be a "true" M1903A1, it had to have a serial number dated 1929 or later.

Canfield goes on to say that there is some controversy on what is a M1903A1 and the military considered any M1903 with a "C" stock as a M1903A1.

He says collectors and students of the subject consider only 1929 serial number rifles and later as M1903A1 rifles.

Of course, production numbers of 1929 and later serial number rifles is very low.

 

[USSR]

Chuck,

Okay, home now. In Lt. Col. William S. Brophy's book "The Springfield 1903 Rifles", regarding the Marine Corps sniper rifle he states "...it is known that the rifles used were Marine Corps rifle team pieces with selected (star gauged) barrels. It has also been reported by Marine officers and men involved with the program during WWII that the only '03 rifles of Marine shooting teams were the Model of 1903A1 National Match rifles.".

Don

 

[cfullgraf]

Thanks, Don.

 

[Reloadron]

Don, is Lt. Col. William S. Brophy's book "The Springfield 1903 Rifles" a good read? I looked at it on Amazon and it appears to be well researched and informative. I have no problem with around $70 for a book but would like your view of the book if that is OK.

Ron

 

[USSR]

Ron,

Yes, the $70 price tag does give you pause. But it is a 616 page hardcover book that covers all the variations, accoutrements and history associated with them, and is written by a man who has used them since the late 1920's.

Don

 

[Reloadron]

Ron,

Yes, the $70 price tag does give you pause. But it is a 616 page hardcover book that covers all the variations, accoutrements and history associated with them, and is written by a man who has used them since the late 1920's.

Don

Thanks Don, on my wife's Amazon list. Can never have too many good boks and now retired the time to enjoy reading them.

Ron

 

[CoalTrain49]

Is your main goal shooting, or collecting? If you're trying to assemble a representative WWII collection, whether you are comfortable shooting the M1 Garand is irrelevant. It definitely belongs in the collection.

Regarding the M1 carbine, note that most of them have been rebuilt over the years. The typical WWII gun would not have the bayonet lug or a 30-round magazine.

I have an Inland with a type III barrel band and lug built 1/45. Only Inland and Win. used them but they are correct after 11/44 depending on mfg. Regarding mags, 15 round is correct. I believe 10 and 30 came after WW2.

 

[CoalTrain49]

The two most common would be a Garand or M1 carbine. I recently went looking for a WW2 rifle and ended up with an Inland carbine. Garands are considerably more expensive to shoot. 06 is available but mostly for hunting applications. There is ball still available but it's .60 a round and very old surplus. 30 carbine is at .40 a round new or .25 if you reload. 06 is more expensive either way. I assume you want to shoot your service rifle.

 

[cfullgraf]

Ron,

Yes, the $70 price tag does give you pause. But it is a 616 page hardcover book that covers all the variations, accoutrements and history associated with them, and is written by a man who has used them since the late 1920's.

Don

Also, thanks. I have one o the way. Looks like a nice addition to the library.

 

[7mmstalker]

AK Float Pilot wrote:

"I have a few WWII era US rifles, the one that rings my bell is my 1943 Smith Corona 1903-A3. Nothing says war time more than having a rifle made by a typewriter company."

That brings back some memories. My first centerfire pistol was a GI 1911 made by Remington-Rand. Were they a typewriter mfgr. back in the '40s? Sold that in the early '80's to get a few bucks extra toward my lovely brides wedding ring! Wish I still had the pistol, though the wife has been pretty good to me.

 

[USSR]

That brings back some memories. My first centerfire pistol was a GI 1911 made by Remington-Rand. Were they a typewriter mfgr. back in the '40s?

Yes, they were a typewriter manufacturer into the early 70's. My first full time job after graduating from high school in 1968 was at a Remington Rand plant in Elmira, NY.

Don

 

[cluttonfred]

I want to buy a WWII combat rifle used by American forces in WWII. This to compliment my YUGO 24/47 and RUSSIAN Mosin Nagant.

The Garand is TOO BIG for me as I am small in stature with shorter arms.

So, excluding that fine firearm which many said "won the war" what would be a good representative era firearms, complete with sling, bayonet, etc., that I could add to my small collection?

I hope also in time to add a K-98, thought the 24/47 is probably close enough, and then an Arisaka. It will be a small collection.

Suggestions welcome!

Going back to the OP's very first post, where he mentioned not only interest in U.S. issue WWII weapons but also other Allied and Axis guns, I find a Lee-Enfield lighter and handier and the action slicker than other bolt-action rifles of the era and you can still find an original or replica (modified standard rifles) No. 5 Mk 1 "jungle carbine."

Also, for a rifle of the era for someone of modest stature, you'd be hard pressed to find a better solution than an Italian 6.5 mm Carcano carbine.

If you need any proof that the Carcano is actually a fine and durable weapon, ask these guys, Libyan rebels still using them in 2011. I read somewhere that in both Libya and Syria there are quite a few WWII weapons in regular use today, and in Libya, due to their Italian colonial past and the fact that the Carcanos make great hunting rifles as well, most of those WWII weapons are Carcanos.



Cheers,

Matthew

 

[fpgt72]

Jungle carbines do pack a punch....then there is that wondering zero problem. The gun even back then was just not the greatest....but they are very cool.

Yes if he opens himself up to other countries there are many choices....a bazillion different shorty 91/30 flavors, and I do love my Carcano, and Japanese rifles. Ammo is a bit of an issue, and you really should get into rolling your own if you go too far off the path.

French weapons are also very nice, just be sure to get on in 7.5 French and not one converted to 308. They are some VERY nice shooting guns and are still a very good buy along with the guns from Japan and Italy.