Need Help Tuning Remington 700, Handloads and the Shooter

[johnny_boy]

Howdy Folks,

I need some help tuning my long range rifle system (rifle+ammo+shooter). It does not shoot consistently and I am trying to figure out what the problem is.

It shots in the range of 0.4 to 0.9 MOA with Federal Gold Medal Match 168/175 grains. However anything else it shoots 1.25 to 2.5 MOA at 100 yards. Is this normal? When folks on the internet say their rifle shoots 0.5 MOA all day, are they using FGMM ammo or some cheap plinking ammo?

The rifle is a Remington 700 SPS Varmint. I've upgrade the stock to Bell & Carlson Medalist Varmint adjustable stock. It's got a nice Sightron SIII scope on it. I free floated the stock (further), skim glass bedded around the aluminum blocks and etc. Lowered the stock Remington X-Pro mark trigger to 3 lbs.

I didn't clean the barrel for about first 500 rounds (After the intial cleaning at the first time out). It was grouping really bad even with FGMM, so I cleaned the barrel and it tightened up quite a bit. I will clean it more often moving forward.

I also try to make hand load 308. While it shoots better than plinking ammo, it does not approach FGMM. It shoots 1 to 1.5 MOA. However, I never loaded a match grade ammo before as I've done all my reloading on progressive press for mostly pistol rounds and 223. I did the 308 on a single stage press, but I don't really know what I am doing. I've tried AA2520 and TAC so far, and TAC shoots tighter. CCI regular large rifle primer and Hornady 168 gr HPBT. Using Lee Deluxe Die set. only using the neck size collet die so far. I am going to try Varget and Sierra MK 168gr with Federal match primer, once the supply picks up a bit, and see if that shoots better.

I shoot off the sandbag front and back. Used to use bipods, but sandbags give me tighter group. I watch the flinch, by mixing dummy rounds, and I've fixed that problem. My only problem is that I don't consistently hold the rifle against my shoulder pocket at exact same pressure. Sometime I hold it a bit more snug vs other time. That could be affecting my precision range spread.

So, am I shooting near the realistic range of what the rifle is capable of? I feel like it should shoot 1 MOA regardless of ammo, but it seems to be very picky. I can't keep shooting FGMM, as they are very expensive.

 

[TIMC]

Varget and IMR4895 are probably the most popular powders for .308. You said 175 grain bullets shot good so I would stick with that and work up a load for that bullet weight. The closer you can get round to round in exactness the more consistant your rifle will shoot. You may also need to play with OAL a little to find out what your rifle likes. Investing in a chrongrah will also help you determine if you are getting the velocities you need to stabilize well. Keep at it you'll find something it likes.

 

[GrayGore]

Putting a 1-lb trigger on my rifle really helped my shooting. Clearly the trigger weight won't change the rifle's precision, but it sure helped MY precision.

 

[johnny_boy]

...You may also need to play with OAL a little to find out what your rifle likes...

I did try out the OAL. From the standard 2.80 and on. I am settled for 2.870, mainly because that is the longest length that will fit in my magazine and still feed reliably.

Of course the weird things is FGMM is 2.8" and it shoots way better than mine. :banghead:

 

[Bill_Shelton]

I feel like it should shoot 1 MOA regardless of ammo

No....not ever.

Rifle accuracy is supremely ammunition dependent! You have a really nice gun and a nice scope...so I think you are covered there. What you don't have is the right ammo: something both cheap and accurate. And...Yes! You can have both to a higher degree than you do now if you do it right.

However, the first thing I recommend you do before firing another shot is go to the Dollar Store and buy a Lab Book and a #2 Pencil. Taking notes and keeping a shooting log devoted to a single rifle will greatly increase your ability to see patterns and to dial in the correct solutions. In fact, a cheap Lab Book and a #2 pencil will help you to produce more accuracy than spending the next $2000 on gun barrels, reloaders, optics, triggers, solvents, precision ammo, range time, prayer, witch doctors, spells, hexes or anything else.

Rifle accuracy does not come so much from a fat wallet as it does the disciplined mind.

 

[maxyedor]

I'll echo what Bill_Shelton just said, ammo can vary greatly, and even those minor differences will have a huge effect on accuracy.

You need to test your loads and figure out which gives you the best accuracy at a given range. Nothing beats Sierra 168gr BTHPs from my 700 out to 600 yards, after that, 175s and 190s start to really shine, but they lack the supreme accuracy of the 168s up close. You have a longer barrel than I do, so you may have slightly different results, there's only one way to find out.

The way to find out is to try different powder charges, starting at the minimum and working up from there. I would work in .5gr increments, you should see increased accuracy as you move up in charge weight, then it will start to drop off. After you find your three most accurate loads, you can get even better by going in .1 grain increments. You may have to load 100 rounds to do this, but you likely won't need to shoot them all, just disassemble the unused rounds and reload with your new, optimized, powder charge.

Do the same for OAL. Longer is usually better, but there's a lot more to it than that. How the bullet sits in relation to the throat, how much empty space you leave in the case, how much neck tension you have, all play a part, Find your rifle's sweet spot.

Because the FGMM gives you the best accuracy, you know right off the bat that something in that round really agrees with your rifle. Search around, I'm sure you can find some FGMM clone recipies, see what's different about that ammo from yours and that will help guide you to a great starting point.

.4-.9 MOA is very good shooting. Don't put too much stock in internet accuracy claims. On the internet everybody can pick off a golf ball at 1000 yards with a .22. You're shooting very good groups, most rifles, ammo, and shooters can't hope to be .4 MOA on the best day of their lives, all you're really missing is an inexpensive handload that can help you match that performance. The good news is that, with a little research and development, handloads should beat FGMM, so you may yet see some serious improvement.

 

[Bill_Shelton]

Because the FGMM gives you the best accuracy, you know right off the bat that something in that round really agrees with your rifle. Search around, I'm sure you can find some FGMM clone recipies, see what's different about that ammo from yours and that will help guide you to a great starting point.

I bet if you can match the FGMM's OAL and the bullet Ogive, then you will have already solved most of your problems. Remember that OAL may be important, but changing the Ogive will change the distance the bullet travels before it strikes the lands (just like changing the OAL would do). Keep care to watch both.

 

[johnny_boy]

Thanks for the replies so far guys. For a while I was getting really frustrated with the rifle, or me, because it was shooting all over the place (2 MOA). It is only recently I broke down and finally tried out FGMM (almost $2 per round currently!!) that I realized that maybe my rifle or me wasn't as bad I as thought.

Below was a recent one that I did. This was after cleaning my barrel squeaky clean. For some reason I was getting the best group once the barrel is clean and it gets 2-3 rounds down it. Even after about 50 rounds I think it starts to lose the accuracy.

FGMM 175 Grain HPBT
- 0.352"
- 0.570"
- 0.540"

Prvi Partizan PPU Match 168 Grain HPBT
- 0.999"
- 1.309"
- 1.736"
- 1.908"

I even alternated 3 rounds of each to ensure that I wasn't shooting strings of them when hot or cold.

 

[TBH]

Good advice here. Do you know what brand FGMM bullets used? Usually it's SMK or Hornady. If you know that, the oal, all you need is to figure is powder. Which one and how much. I have found that on powder charges between 1/2 and 2/3 of max (between min and max)is where you will find the accuracy load. Usually, but not always.
Another factory load to try is Hornady Tap 168g. They shoot great in mine.
It took me quite a while to find an accurate load for my 308. I have a PSS and just sold a LTR. My buddy has a LTR. All three loved this load.
167 Lapua Scenar, 42.3 Vitavori N140 , with an OAL of 2.815.

 

[USSR]

It shots in the range of 0.4 to 0.9 MOA with Federal Gold Medal Match 168/175 grains. However anything else it shoots 1.25 to 2.5 MOA at 100 yards. Is this normal? When folks on the internet say their rifle shoots 0.5 MOA all day, are they using FGMM ammo or some cheap plinking ammo?

A good shooting rifle will shoot ~.75 MOA with Federal Gold Medal Match. Any other non-match ammo is hit and miss, as you have found. Disregard the folks on the internet tht say their rifle shoots .5 MOA "all day long". These are internet groups that are created using a .25 MOA keyboard.

I didn't clean the barrel for about first 500 rounds (After the intial cleaning at the first time out). It was grouping really bad even with FGMM, so I cleaned the barrel and it tightened up quite a bit. I will clean it more often moving forward.

This is the primary difference between a factory barrel and a custom barrel such as a Krieger; the number of rounds that can be fired without cleaning before accuracy deteriorates. You may have to clean it every 50 rounds or so. I would suggest you get some Montana Extreme .50BMG copper remover solvent to find out how badly your barrel is fouling.

I also try to make hand load 308. While it shoots better than plinking ammo, it does not approach FGMM. It shoots 1 to 1.5 MOA. However, I never loaded a match grade ammo before as I've done all my reloading on progressive press for mostly pistol rounds and 223. I did the 308 on a single stage press, but I don't really know what I am doing. I've tried AA2520 and TAC so far, and TAC shoots tighter. CCI regular large rifle primer and Hornady 168 gr HPBT. Using Lee Deluxe Die set. only using the neck size collet die so far. I am going to try Varget and Sierra MK 168gr with Federal match primer, once the supply picks up a bit, and see if that shoots better.

I would suggest you stay with extruded powders such as IMR4895, RL15, or Varget. The Fed 210M is a good primer, as are the Russian made Tula primers.

I shoot off the sandbag front and back. Used to use bipods, but sandbags give me tighter group. I watch the flinch, by mixing dummy rounds, and I've fixed that problem. My only problem is that I don't consistently hold the rifle against my shoulder pocket at exact same pressure. Sometime I hold it a bit more snug vs other time. That could be affecting my precision range spread.

So, am I shooting near the realistic range of what the rifle is capable of? I feel like it should shoot 1 MOA regardless of ammo, but it seems to be very picky. I can't keep shooting FGMM, as they are very expensive.

Yes, shooting with a bipod can be tricky as they will bounce around a bit. Try placing a towel between the bipod legs and the hard surface. Your expectations of shooting 1 MOA regardless of ammo are unrealistic. Your rifle's accuracy is a result of the ammo harmonics that your rifle likes. You didn't state what brass you were using in your reloads, but I would suggest you buy some Lapua brass, get the Fed 210M primers, and one of the extruded powders I mentioned, and continue your load development work with match bullets. Good Luck.

Don

 

[Bill_Shelton]

I know this question is not going to win me any popularity contests, but I have to ask: Are the Match-Grade Bullets that many recomend really as tightly toleranced as regular Joe-Blow bullets? Specifically, has someone performed a measurement test and actually validated the fact that Berger, Lapua, etc. really turn out bullets whose dimensioning is more consistent than the cheaper brands? If they did, then I should suspect that I would open a bullet catalogue and for every bullet dimensional value given, I would also see a Standard Deviation and hard cutoff associated with the value.

Am I missing something?

 

[jmr40]

It shots in the range of 0.4 to 0.9 MOA with Federal Gold Medal Match 168/175 grains. However anything else it shoots 1.25 to 2.5 MOA at 100 yards. Is this normal? When folks on the internet say their rifle shoots 0.5 MOA all day, are they using FGMM ammo or some cheap plinking ammo?

What you are getting is actually normal. Anytime you are getting groups averaging 1/2"-1" with good quality ammo that is about as much as you can expect from a factory rifle. Yes, there are factory rifles that will do better, but they are the exception, not the rule. And guys who have those rifles tend to be proud of them and will brag on the internet about how good they are. Rightfully so.

I don't have any that will shoot ".5 MOA, all day", but a couple that will do it quite often, and will almost always be under 1 MOA. But after 40+ years of shooting and gun trading I've found many more that wouldn't come close. There is a reason I've kept the ones I own and let many others go over the years.

And all of the good ones need quality ammo to do it. For me that means carefully made handloads. I've used some of the good factory loads with good results, but I cannot afford to shoot them very much. I get best results with 165-168 gr bullets. There are lots of good powders for a 308. I've gotten good accuracy with 4064, and 4895. But my go-to powders are either Varget or Reloader 15 for heavier bullets. I've used TAC successfully with some 130 gr loads.

 

[Canuck-IL]

I have found that on powder charges between 1/2 and 2/3 of max is where you will find the accuracy load.

I'd presume that was meant to say 1/2 to 2/3 of the range BETWEEN published min and max loads - not 1/2 of the max (23 grains of 4895 anyone??).

has someone ... actually validated the fact that Berger, Lapua, etc. really turn out bullets whose dimensioning is more consistent than the cheaper brands...

Yep - and you can see it on the target. Some HP and most LR shooters obsess over their loads and bullet cost is not a hindrance in the wind blown pursuit of an extra X. Tolerances are tighter, weight and ogive are more consistent as are meplats in general ... not to mention those particular brands offer some outstanding BCs in various calibers.

That does not mean YOUR rifle would necessarily prefer an expensive brand over a cheaper alternative. Nosler and Hornady offer some outstanding bullets at comparatively reasonable prices. Sierra SMKs are often considered the average man's gold standard but you can be surprised by the variance in their OAL.

I'd worry about powder choice, charge and bullet weight, then seating depth, then brass prep, before worrying about the esoterica of specific bullet brand/design in maximizing the rifle's potential.

Edit to add: and shoot at 200 yards, 300 even better as soon as a load looks promising.

/Bryan

 

[allaroundhunter]

Federal uses Reloader 15 in their .308 FGMM line.... Try that and some Sierra bullets.

Sent from my HTC One X

 

[TBH]

Fixed my post, thanks.

 

[murf]

full-length size your cases.

murf

 

[sage5907]

You do know that if you cant your rifle differently with each shot it will affect your group size. I don't know how you hold your rifle but some people don't have an onboard computer that gives the same result every time they hold the rifle, no matter how many sand bags they've put under it.

 

[johnny_boy]

- USSR, in regard to cleaning. Do custom barrel require less or more cleaning? Part of the reason why I didn't clean for a while is because I was reading up on the BenchRest forums and they say you do more damage by cleaning too frequently. Some of them recommended going 200+ rounds between cleaning. I think my rifle requires cleaning after 50 rounds to keep it under 1 M0A. After 50 rounds, even the FGMM were shooting at 1.25 MOA (from 0.6 MOA average when it was clean). Is this normal?

- Sage5907, I try to hold the same cant by aligning my reticle to the target lines (Which are not always horizontal, but I try to keep the relationship the same). but I am assuming that won't affect why FGMM shoots very well, while others shoots OK.

- Murf, what is the reason to do full length resize? That is how I always did things, but I was told that fire formed brass on a bolt gun will shoot more accurately, which is the reason why decided to only do the neck sizing only. Do you do full resize using commercial made die, or only partial full length size?

- CanukIL - Is powder THAT important? Would my hand load magically shrink from 1-1.5 MOA to 0.75-1 MOA by using Varget? I hear great things about Varget, but I can't get a hold of it due to current shortage. Per others suggestion, I think I am going to give Lapua brass a try. I am currently reusing FGMM, PPU, LC once fired brass (I group them by head stamp when I load them. I am not sure if I am getting any more accuracy out of one brass or the other)

 

[Canuck-IL]

All powders aren't created equal. While most reloading books point out a specific loading that was THEIR most accurate, they also list 10 other choices with comparable velocities. Barrel/chamber/brass/bullet/powder (not to mention temperature, pressure, etc.) - together virtually all create unique combinations - so, yes, 1 quarter MOA reduction is possible but, it may require a combination of simultaneous changes.

If it were easy or obvious, we'd only need one reloading manual with 1 load per caliber and bullet weight.

All that said, there are some classic loads that lead one to suspect the gun if they're really poor. 24gr of RL-15 or Varget behind a 77gr SMK in a 20" AR should shoot all x-ring. 4gr of BE behind a 200gr 45ACP lead SWC should shoot competitive Bullseye scores in a tuned 1911. Tuning the load and gun for the last 1/4 MOA is seldom fruitful (read time consuming & expensive) unless it's absolutely known that the elusive last 1/4 isn't in fact attributable to the shooter.

Best advice I received when starting in HP was to pick any 2 of the commonly accepted "optimum" loads for that discipline and try them for 10-20 rounds each. Pick the one I liked and load a couple thousand - then go train and practice position, trigger pull, sight alignment, etc. Much more productive than obsessing at the reloading bench.
/B

 

[Geno]

My M700 Police in .308 Win produced about 1.0", 3-shot groups at 300 yards off the bench with the following load:

Winchester brass form-fired
Varget powder 47 grains *** Exceeds max ***
Speer 168 Grain HP Match
Winchester LR primer

I suggest you look into some Browning "Step 2, Bore Polish". Read up on the product and you will see why I like it, especially in my hunting firearms. One does not have to take fouling shots. The first shot from a cold, clean, dry bore will be the same point of impact, and grouping ability, as the last shot before cleaning. No "zero" shifts; no fouling needed. It's some pretty cool stuff!

Geno

 

[USSR]

- USSR, in regard to cleaning. Do custom barrel require less or more cleaning? Part of the reason why I didn't clean for a while is because I was reading up on the BenchRest forums and they say you do more damage by cleaning too frequently. Some of them recommended going 200+ rounds between cleaning. I think my rifle requires cleaning after 50 rounds to keep it under 1 M0A. After 50 rounds, even the FGMM were shooting at 1.25 MOA (from 0.6 MOA average when it was clean). Is this normal?

A good cut rifled barrel will not copper up anywhere near what a factory hammer forged barrel will. Regarding cleaning, there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. First, with a boltgun, you always clean from the breech using a rod guide to prevent contact of the cleaning rod with the barrel. Second, you use a quality coated rod such as made by Dewey. My routine is to run a jag with a cleaning patch with Montana Extreme's .50BMG Copper Killer on it thru the bore, wait 15 minutes, and run a clean patch thru the bore. If there's copper in the bore, the clean patch comes out blue. Continue with this routine until the clean patch comes out without blue on it. After shooting a match consisting of 50 rounds, my Krieger barrel does not show any copper fouling. Yes, unfortunately, your factory barrel copper fouling and effecting it's accuracy is all too common. Hope that helps.

Don

 

[witchhunter]

Why didn't you clean the barrel for 500 rounds? I would spend an hour or two cleaning it before you try anything else. First use a copper remover like Sweets 7.62, then scrub, then patches. repeat several times. Try some JB cream. Then try some brass that is neck sized from your rifle. try several bullets in the weight range of the factory ammo that it likes, at that approximate velocity. Experiment with seating depth. Experiment with primers and powders. Shoot it a lot, I can't guarantee any of this will help, but if you shoot it enough, your groups will shrink or you will get rid of it. Or if you are like me if it doesn't shoot any better, you will rebarrel, bed, new trigger and start all over again. Clean the bore every 50-100 shots fired.

 

[mnhntr]

Why didn't you clean the barrel for 500 rounds? I would spend an hour or two cleaning it before you try anything else. First use a copper remover like Sweets 7.62, then scrub, then patches. repeat several times. Try some JB cream. Then try some brass that is neck sized from your rifle. try several bullets in the weight range of the factory ammo that it likes, at that approximate velocity. Experiment with seating depth. Experiment with primers and powders. Shoot it a lot, I can't guarantee any of this will help, but if you shoot it enough, your groups will shrink or you will get rid of it. Or if you are like me if it doesn't shoot any better, you will rebarrel, bed, new trigger and start all over again. Clean the bore every 50-100 shots fired.

THIS

Or take it to a gunsmith have him true and square the action and then it will shoot like a Savage

 

[johnny_boy]

Why didn't you clean the barrel for 500 rounds?

Well, my excuse is that I am new to the sport I've been shooting only for about 7 years, and I was never taught proper way to clean. I really only ran bore snake through time to time on all my firearms. What I didn't realize was that, at least for Remington 700, that wasn't really cutting it. I finally bought a Tipton carbon fiber cleaning rod and brass brush and really scrubbed it with Hoppes #9. That made a huge difference

I am used to shooting Ruger 10/22 - not cleaning until I shot through a couple brick of 550 rounds of Remington Golden Bullets. It seemed perfectly OK plinking at some soda bottles at 50 yards. That does not seem to fly with Remington 700.

Yes, I will be cleaning more often. Thanks for the guidance.

 

[USSR]

...scrubbed it with Hoppes #9

Hoppes is fine for powder fouling, but ain't gonna touch the copper. Get yourself something made specifically for removing copper such as Montana Extreme .50BMG Copper Killer or Sweets 7.62.

Don