Need help with 1851 Navy
- Thread starter Guvnor
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Question #2...
Like a dummy, I took out the wedge screw when I was taking the gun apart. So now I dont have a reference point as to how far the wedge should be tapped back in. I put it in too far at first and the cylinder was binding up.
So I backed the wedge back out a little bit and now its working fine again. Could I have done something stupid like knock the cylinder gap out of spec? Or is the wedge depth not that critical?
Like a dummy, I took out the wedge screw when I was taking the gun apart. So now I dont have a reference point as to how far the wedge should be tapped back in. I put it in too far at first and the cylinder was binding up.
So I backed the wedge back out a little bit and now its working fine again. Could I have done something stupid like knock the cylinder gap out of spec? Or is the wedge depth not that critical?
On the original 1851 .36 Navies, the wedge screw acted as a depth set for the wedge, so it couldn't be driven in too far (and could be adjusted), and to catch the wedge from falling out when the barrel was removed. The spring on the wedge was meant to catch on the exit slot of the barrel (and on the screw when the barrel was removed).
I have an original 1851 and the screw's head is larger than on my repros, and the screw actually makes contact with the wedge. If you seat the wedge in far enough to hold it all together (and tight), and it doesn't back out, but not so far that the cylinder binds, you're golden.
I have an original 1851 and the screw's head is larger than on my repros, and the screw actually makes contact with the wedge. If you seat the wedge in far enough to hold it all together (and tight), and it doesn't back out, but not so far that the cylinder binds, you're golden.
scrat
Member
no dont worry about it. Thats the way it is. if you push the wedge all the way in it should stop the cylinder. you push the wedge in just to loose some of the free play but enough to turn the cylinder with out binding it. i believe if you were to put a guage to it it would be at or between .05 and .10 however no one used air gap guages in the civil war you had to do it by feel most of the time.
scrat
Member
half cock. As when the hammer is back the cylinder should be in battery and should not move at all. Same when hammer down. but not all the way. As when you pull the trigger hammer goes down when locked in battery. free play should be measured half cock
SHIPCHIEF
Member
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_One.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_Two.pdf
Tuning the Pietta Cap & Ball Revolver, by Larsen E. Pettyfogger indicates that the arbor should set the space between the cylinder and the barrel.
The wedge should tighten the join, but the tip of the arbor should set against the bottom of it's mating hole in the barrel.
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_Two.pdf
Tuning the Pietta Cap & Ball Revolver, by Larsen E. Pettyfogger indicates that the arbor should set the space between the cylinder and the barrel.
The wedge should tighten the join, but the tip of the arbor should set against the bottom of it's mating hole in the barrel.
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madcratebuilder
Member
The Italian and 2nd&3rd gen Colt replicas do not use the wedge screw to set wedge depth. Screw the wedge screw in tight. Inert the wedge as far as you can with moderate thumb pressure. If the arbor is fit correctly it well bottom out in the barrel lug hole and give you the correct barrel gap. This seldom happens with out some fitting on your part.
scrat
Member
uhhh yep 5-10 thousandths of an inch woops
madcratebuilder
Member
All the new gen Colts I have taken out of the box has the screw all the way in, tight. When the arbor bottoms in the lug hole that stops the wedge from going any further.
If you have a short arbor then using the screw to control the wedge depth would be appropriate.
On the pocket frame Colts the wedge does not have the small spring, just a groove cut in the top of it. The groove starts on the left side and stops just short of the right side, that allows the wedge screw to keep the wedge from completely falling out of the barrel lug.
The wedge in Colt's 1st design, the Paterson, and his last, the 1862 Pocket Police, do not have springs on the wedge, but in each, the screw depth can be adjusted by turning the screw in or out, if the screw head makes contact and fits in the wedge groove. The Pocket Colts were meant to be carried concealed as a backup, so losing the wedge while reloading might not have been a big concern. From what I've read, some owners would have their pocket revolvers loaded by a gunsmith.
Anyways, the wedge and its screw are, to me, an overlooked area of the design for a tight barrel/frame connection in a modern repro. An arbor that does bottom out is great if everything else on the gun is machined properly, but if it is too long, or just long enough, then the wedge would never be able to draw the connection in tighter. In that case, like you said, a shorter arbor would allow the wedge to do it's job.
I used a screw with an oversixed head on my Pietta 1860 .44 and it tightnened the loose connection up. Finding a scew that fits is the tough part.
Anyways, the wedge and its screw are, to me, an overlooked area of the design for a tight barrel/frame connection in a modern repro. An arbor that does bottom out is great if everything else on the gun is machined properly, but if it is too long, or just long enough, then the wedge would never be able to draw the connection in tighter. In that case, like you said, a shorter arbor would allow the wedge to do it's job.
I used a screw with an oversixed head on my Pietta 1860 .44 and it tightnened the loose connection up. Finding a scew that fits is the tough part.
madcratebuilder
Member
I agree, the barrel to frame connection is the major problem with these replicas. It can cause so many problems from shooting high to cylinder drag.
I bought a Uberti Baby Dragoon that the wedge would pull the barrel up several degrees because of the excessive barrel gap, it's was funny to see the angle when put together. By time I had the barrel set back to close up the gap the wedge slot in the arbor was moved forward. I can either weld the slot and re-fit or find a wedge about .010 wider.
What I try to do when I work on the arbor length is have the arbor bottom out in the barrel lug hole just as the bottom of the lug touches the frame, or even .001-.002 from the frame. The barrel to cylinder gap needs to be correct at this point, then I go for wedge fit.
My Uberti 1862 Pocket Police .36 has a very tight barrel/frame connection (though it does have some timing issues). On this gun, the arbor is canted upwards quite a bit, to the point that you have to push the barrel tip down to get the wedge in. I think it was designed this way because the arbor pushing up keeps the connection tight. If it was a mistake in manufacture, it's a good one.
Anyone else see this on their guns?
Anyone else see this on their guns?
SHIPCHIEF
Member
If the arbor is too short, a spacer could be inserted in the barrel's receiver for it.
Setting the arbor forward with spacers at the frame would upset the wedge to barrel fit.
Welding extra steel onto the end of the arbor would work too. Then hand dress it to fit.
(my 3 cent advice is worth nuthin')
Setting the arbor forward with spacers at the frame would upset the wedge to barrel fit.
Welding extra steel onto the end of the arbor would work too. Then hand dress it to fit.
(my 3 cent advice is worth nuthin')
It'd be interesting to see Colt's original design specs for the 1851 .36, or any open top for that matter, to see if the arbor was designed to bottom out or to fall a little short. I'm guessing they weren't meant to bottom out, due to the wedge design.
madcratebuilder
Member
I would love to find that kind of info, even an period gunsmithing book of sorts would be nice. I can tell you that what is in the patient is not always what was done in the manufacturing process. Patients were some times reworded from the original submission just so it could be issued. There is some interesting info along those lines in W E Nutter's book "Manhattan Firearms". The Manhattan was a Colt clone and the originator of the "Spring Plate" the flat piece attached to the recoil shield to re-direct hot gases laterally to reduce chain fires. This is one of the few documented items about chain fires that I have found for that period.
Hey fellas...
I hadn't thought to ask yet...but which round ball diameter do you recommend for this gun? I thought it would be in the manual but I didn't notice it in there. Also, what size caps should I use?
I plan on using goex ffg unless you guys would suggest otherwise. I could never really get satisfactory results with the 777 or pyrodex in my hawken so I tend to stick with goex.
I hadn't thought to ask yet...but which round ball diameter do you recommend for this gun? I thought it would be in the manual but I didn't notice it in there. Also, what size caps should I use?
I plan on using goex ffg unless you guys would suggest otherwise. I could never really get satisfactory results with the 777 or pyrodex in my hawken so I tend to stick with goex.
I use .380 roundball and FFFG (not FFg) in my .36s. Goex is the way to go, in my opinion.
check this out:
From an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
"FFG black powder is best for large and medium-size revolvers, and FFFG for the small pocket models, but any grade that is available will work reasonably well."
Also...
"Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."
check this out:
From an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
"FFG black powder is best for large and medium-size revolvers, and FFFG for the small pocket models, but any grade that is available will work reasonably well."
Also...
"Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."
madcratebuilder
Member
The DGW catalog calls for .376 rb for the 51 Navy by Pietta, .380's well work, that's what I keep on hand for all my .36's. FFg or FFFg well work with the .36, FFFg is recommended. You may need to try two or more brands/sizes to find the best cap to nipple fit.
An easy handy "feeler gauge" is a folded over piece of copy paper. Most copy paper is .0035" thick. I like a .007" cylinder gap. Just fold a paper over once and insert it between the cylinder and barrel as you tap in the wedge. As soon as the cylinder grabs the paper you are there. If it grabs so tight you can't get the paper out it is a mite too tight so tap the wedge out a smidge and tap in again. Otherwise go to a print shop and buy a piece of paper (business card stock) that is .007" thick and you can make all kinds of feelers with one sheet.
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