need help with an ar15 decision.

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smokejumper34401

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Hi guys, i'm new here so it may take me some time to get a feel for the sight, but i'm going to jump right in and ask for help.
First, let me fill you in on me. I live in ohio so my gun use is pretty limited. Until recently the only gun i've owned was a mossberg 500, bought nearly 25 years ago, and I have used it for EVERYTHING, from deer to turkey,to squirrell to waterfowl. I use it to shoot skeet. like I said everything. I've sometimes worried because it wasnt a high priced flashy gun, but it has been very good to me and she is a part of me now. (i'm closer to her than to my wife, but i'm sure I dont have to explain that to many of you)
I recently got the bug, so I bought my Very First centerfire rifle, a savage 110 30 06. I'm putting good glass on it, and just like my shotgun, I figure if I only have one, I will become very familiar and comfortable with it and I will learn to use it very well. I also have a marlin model 60 .22
I bought a Taurus 24/7 pro in .40 cal about 8 months ago and have used it enough that I am getting pretty good with it. Once again, one handgun, use the crap out of it and get good with it.
Do you see the pattern here. Nothing I own is absolute top of the line, due to financial constraints, but I am of the mentality that it isnt the gun that makes you good, its the shooter. So I shoot the heck out of what I am lucky enough to own and get good with it.
That brings me to my dilema, I really want to buy an ar15 sometime in the near future. I have looked around and only DPMS or Rock River seem to be in my price range. What are your thoughts on these 2 guns. I know I will get alot of replies saying save your money and buy something REALLY good at three times the price, but I am more of a utility kind of person that a top end gun nut. Imagine that, I dont even have one purdee in my collection. LOL
Please offer whatever advice you can.
 
What's your price range exactly? If you can go $850, you can get a Smith & Wesson M&P15, or buy an upper from BCM, etc and build a lower youself to save some $. CDNN even has a Colt fixed carry handle for less than $900.
 
if I were to buy a BCM upper, does it matter what lower I buy, or will any lower fit? are the different manufactures interchangable?
 
If I were you I would do more research about the AR platform then look into building or buying used. AR's come in every flavor and price range, if you shoot a lot spend the extra money for a chrome lined barrel at least, if you don't then go with a DPMS I bought one new for less than $700.

Lowers are mostly about equal but Brownell's has the Spikes around $100 then you have to get a dealer to do the work so that runs usually another $50, depends on where you live and who you know. Then you'll need a parts kit for the lower and that will run about $80 shipped for a DPMS kit. Then of course buffer tube, buffer, spring, and stock.

First gun though I suggest buy not build, unless you really take the time and read,read, read. Good luck
 
It depends what you want to use it for. If it is just a weekend range gun, than a DPMS or RRA would work just fine and may actually be preferred if looking for a target gun as they have some really accurate options.

If this gun is going to be for protection, I would likely go for something a little more durable. In your price range, I would recommend buying used, or looking at a S&W M&P or Spikes Tactical. The Spikes would be more "mil-spec" so to speak, and the M&P is just a good all around rifle. FWIW, if you want to put together a lower, the Daniel Defense upper from smartgunner.com is an amazing deal.
 
I would say the DPMS or the RRA would work for defense and target, just not competition or large amounts of target, since the lack of a lined barrel. I have a DPMS and a M&P each one shoots as well as the other. All 3 are decent guns and have decent prices to match.
 
M&PVolk said:
It depends what you want to use it for. If it is just a weekend range gun, than a DPMS or RRA would work just fine and may actually be preferred if looking for a target gun as they have some really accurate options.

If this gun is going to be for protection, I would likely go for something a little more durable. In your price range, I would recommend buying used, or looking at a S&W M&P or Spikes Tactical. The Spikes would be more "mil-spec" so to speak, and the M&P is just a good all around rifle. FWIW, if you want to put together a lower, the Daniel Defense upper from smartgunner.com is an amazing deal.
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If this gun is going to be for protection, I would likely go for something a little more durable
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Give me a break, he isn't going to war. RRA will do EVERYTHING a smith will do. Between the makes in your original post, go with RRA. If you can locate a Stag in your area, they are fantstic rifles as well.
 
Like M&P said, if you list protection as one of your criteria, you owe it to yourself to look at something better than a DPMS or RRA. I would suggest looking at BCM, Spikes, or DD. The best deal around right now is a Daniel Defense from Smartgunner. Configure the upper the way you want for about $650 including bolt and buy the lower of your choice.

For a complete rifle, Spikes will be in your price range and is far superior to the RRA or DPMS you listed.

Best think you can do though it go over to m4Carbine.net and do some reading.
 
keep in mind you can always order a full parts kit for around $500 shipped. I've used www.del-ton.com with great success to build a very accurate and reliable rifle. the kit includes absolutely every piece you need to assemble your rifle from parts, except the lower receiver, which you can get for less than $100 if you look around.

regardless of what anyone who's been drinking the tactikool-aid thinks, every manufacturer that's building ar parts is building them to the same specs, the only real difference between *some* is a 5.56 chamber vs a .223 chamber. you can take any upper and put it on any lower and they will all fit and function the same (there might be slight differences in the color of the finish however).

PS *no matter what*, unless you really like wasting your money on junk, don't buy anything from vulcan/hesse (I'm not sure what they call themselves today) they are the only manufacturer i would not recommend because it seems they use sub par metal and manufacturing techniques. you can easily find A LOT of people who's guns failed catasrophically
 
regardless of what anyone who's been drinking the tactikool-aid thinks, every manufacturer that's building ar parts is building them to the same specs, the only real difference between *some* is a 5.56 chamber vs a .223 chamber. you can take any upper and put it on any lower and they will all fit and function the same (there might be slight differences in the color of the finish however).
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I am sorry but this is just NOT true at all. While the outer dimensions on parts may be close, the specs are no where near the same between say DPMS and Daniel Defense.

Please don't disseminate false information.
 
There are 'econo-model' AR15s, built by lower- and mid-tier manufacturers. All compromise somewhere along the way.

Unless you plan to go to war against biker gangs, Mexican drug cartels, or zombie hordes, any mid-tier AR15 will do nicely for informal target shooting and home defense. Pick one with a solid warranty and good customer services and have at it.

Getting back to your original question, of the two brands you named, RRA would be my choice.

mbogo
 
From reading the above, I got one of the junk DPMS rifles. I put a cheap quad rail on it and then a bushnell holosight. Let my buddy that spent two tours in Iraq and two in Afghanistan using an M4 daily to protect his life and he personally owns a Stag shoot it and he thought it was a very good shooting rifle. He was impressed with it.
As far as the chrome lined barrel that was mentioned above, the chrome lining is for harsh environments, not for barrel life. Do some research before you decide on which you get. The non chrome lined are supposed to be more accurate.
Check around the web and the local gun shows, you can find barely used ones for decent deals. Good luck with whatever choice you make.
 
See reply in red.

From reading the above, I got one of the junk DPMS rifles. I put a cheap quad rail on it and then a bushnell holosight. Let my buddy that spent two tours in Iraq and two in Afghanistan using an M4 daily to protect his life and he personally owns a Stag shoot it and he thought it was a very good shooting rifle.

Good shooting how? A few rounds downrange from the bench? Or were you putting it through drills?

He was impressed with it.
As far as the chrome lined barrel that was mentioned above, the chrome lining is for harsh environments, not for barrel life.

It is actually for both. Chrome lining increases barrel life and resistance to harsh environments.


Do some research before you decide on which you get. The non chrome lined are supposed to be more accurate.

Depends on the barrel. A good Noveske will out shoot a lot of non Chrome lined barrels every day of the week.

Check around the web and the local gun shows, you can find barely used ones for decent deals. Good luck with whatever choice you make.

Very true. Nothing wrong with buying used as long as you know what you are looking for.
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The difficulty in asking fanboys what to buy is they aren't dispassionate or objective. Add in the fadboys who insist certain parts are a minimum life and death requirement, which only confuses things more.

In general terms, you get what you pay for, no problem. The mid range consumer AR's do a fine job, and have a warranty. Building a gun isn't hard, the difficulty is that parts are not cheap unless you buy in volume. All the build a gun fans (and I am, too,) forget to mention the complete lowers or uppers can be had for less. It's a simple fact that an assembler buying in 1000 lot quantities get actual discounts, like $40 or less for stripped lowers - as opposed to $130 on the gun dealers shelf.

Some think being frugal equates to being cheap, when in fact what it does for the experienced purchaser is knock out all the fluff and unecessary bling that don't contribute to actual performance. It's why the thinking shooter doesn't always spec a M4gery, knowing it has limitations. Since the average American shooter doesn't exit armored vehicles and knock on doors in Helmand province, some of the normal RIFLE concepts are more useful - and don't come at a premium.

A fixed stock A3 flattop with handguards does most of what we need, but that's not what the innerdweebs recommend to support their ego purchases. They have to exercise their fantasy, rather than consider whether a military adopted service part is actually a compromise for a diverse user base, and actually not recommended for general shooters by the government contractor at all.

At least KAC gets it. Too many psuedo warriors are driving the market place right now, and so just like Congress, we're getting what we deserve.

Worry over the features, the brands are a commodity at the $850 level, and don't get sucked into the black hole of building unless you plan on selling other stuff to feed the fever. Too many of us think we can do it for less and then come up with an uber gun that frankly, no one would actually buy - their aren't any on the market for a reason.
 
With ARs, just like TVs, computers and cars, there are elite name brands and lower cost brands. The lowest cost brands may do the job or may not - it depends on what you require. No one here can tell you what you require, YOU have to do the work and figure that one out yourself.

In general you do get what you pay for - if you do your research. Corners are cut in the lower cost models and it's up to you to find what was or wasn't done and determine if it matters to you. That means research, understanding the specs and pouring over them deciding what's important to you. That's not always easy since true specs can be hard to come by with lower cost brands. On the other hand the best tend to brag about their specs.

If you do buy a cheap model, fine, but understand the specs before going around saying it's better than a Colt or BCM or Daniel Defense, etc.
 
I am sorry but this is just NOT true at all. While the outer dimensions on parts may be close, the specs are no where near the same between say DPMS and Daniel Defense.

Please don't disseminate false information.
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azziza you tell me not to disseminate false info, but you have no facts in your post. put down the kool aid and listen up

I have a complete colt 6920 (i'd say that's about as "top tier" as you get, because its the original manufacturer ) sitting right here next to my del-ton parts rifle with a spikes tactical lower and another del-ton parts rifle with a doublestar lower, and oh look i have a caliper too, they are all EXACTLY the same, except that the colt looks more purplish than black, when put it next to the other two.

yes i did have to stake the castle nut on my two builds myself.

Now, its true you get a better quality bbl if you go with noveske or dd but don't buy the hype they are all just matching parts with different stamps
 
azziza you tell me not to disseminate false info, but you have no facts in your post. put down the kool aid and listen up

I have a complete colt 6920 (i'd say that's about as "top tier" as you get, because its the original manufacturer ) sitting right here next to my del-ton parts rifle with a spikes tactical lower and another del-ton parts rifle with a doublestar lower, and oh look i have a caliper too, they are all EXACTLY the same, except that the colt looks more purplish than black, when put it next to the other two.

yes i did have to stake the castle nut on my two builds myself.

Now, its true you get a better quality bbl if you go with noveske or dd but don't buy the hype they are all just matching parts with different stamps
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Except they aren't.

You are ignoring a number of factors. While many of the same parts come from a limited number of manufacturers there is also requirements on tolerances and strength that many companies have that others don't. Then there is the Testing required by some companies that other companies do not. The materials used, etc.

For instance the bolts on a Colt are Shot peened. Not so with your Del ton.
Does del ton have the same requirements for parts that Colt has? No they do not.



What is it with all the low post count people lately trying to claim things that just aren't true? Is AR15.com down or something?
 
smokejumper, I can understand your quandry. ARs have gotten to be so common that it's hard to tell the junk from the good stuff. The thing is that much of the equipment that some would consider to be "junk" will run just fine for many thousands of rounds. Since you are on a budget, just keep in mind that ARs are sort of tinker toys and replacing parts later with "better" parts isn't a big deal.

What I'd be looking for if I were you is a fair price from a reputable manufacturer that will stand behind their product. Just call a few of them and ask questions like what happens if you have a problem and what their procedure would be for curing the problem. I know that places like Spike's have sent replacements out without even waiting for the defective component to get back into their hands.

Another thing to consider is a used rifle. In this realm, I'd be looking at one of the CMMG "bargain bin" rifles. No, they don't come with a warranty, but they are guaranteed to be in running condition when they leave CMMG. A number of people have gone this route and have been satisfied. If I remember right, a bargain bin rifle goes for around $500.

Personally, I like getting the good stuff. Parts that are high pressure and magnetic particle tested and are manufactured with milspec materials, but still, it's mostly for my piece of mind. I know MANY police and probation/parole officers locally that run either Rock River or Bushmaster and they all love their rifles.
 
SmokeJumper...

You can get a BCM or Daniel Defense for the same price as most Bushmaster/DPMS/RRA.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Standard-16-M4-SOCOM-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-m4-16socom.htm

Get that upper with the BCG, a blemmish lower for 270 bucks and a MOE handguard and you have a complete rifle, minus a rear sight, for under 850 bucks.

OR
http://www.smartgunner.com/DanielDefenseURG.aspx

Thats a complete upper with rear sight. Add a BCM blemmish lower and you have a complete rifle for under 850 bucks.

Those rifles are properly built and will take the abuse.

Spikes Tactical is also suppose to be a good option in that price range but I have no experience with them.

I have a Bushmaster as my issued patrol rifle at work. My dept bought them while Colt was way back ordered during a military contract. Almost every single one they bought has had several issues as we shoot them a lot.

My rifle during our "rifle school" suffered a broken safety and a broken trigger group. Mine wasnt the only rifle that experienced this. Of the 24 rifle guys in the class most, probably about 18 or so, had the new Bushmasters while the rest had the remaining Colts. All of the Bushmasters had broken parts. The Colts ran fine. Our rifle school is 4 days and shoots a few thousand rounds during that time. That kind of shooting will show the problems with the rifle. My rifle has never had a feed or fire malfunction but that doesnt matter when the trigger doesnt work or you cant get it off safe.

The dept has since gone back to Colt and is willing to pay the extra and have longer wait times to have a rifle that works correctly.

Another thing is Bushamster, alog with many other manufacturers, use the wrong front sight base for a flat top reciever. This causes many people to run out of ajustment room on their front sight when trying to sight it in.

Many manufacturers also use inferior metals for their barrels which really isnt a big issue. Many also dont properly test their parts to see if they are up to spec. Many also dont do a proper staking of the gas key on the BCG which can cause short stroking.

Read this link. It is the infamous "chart" of the different ARs out there. Dont worry to much about the actual chart as it only compares a few select models. But read what every section is about and how it works on the rifle.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
 
My rifle during our "rifle school" suffered a broken safety and a broken trigger group. Mine wasnt the only rifle that experienced this. Of the 24 rifle guys in the class most, probably about 18 or so, had the new Bushmasters while the rest had the remaining Colts. All of the Bushmasters had broken parts. The Colts ran fine. Our rifle school is 4 days and shoots a few thousand rounds during that time. That kind of shooting will show the problems with the rifle. My rifle has never had a feed or fire malfunction but that doesnt matter when the trigger doesnt work or you cant get it off safe.
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in the chart that shows what is good and what sucks there are no categories or columns for trigger groups or safeties are there?

(i was thinking bushmasters either just exploded or got rusty under the fsb during carbine courses)
 
I'll throw my two cents worth in on this one. I plan on marrying up an upper and lower when I get home here in a another couple of months. Since I have never owned an AR myself prior to this. Just shot them due to my job. Here is my plan. I am going to get a complete upper from ARP in 6.8SPC. And a complete assembled lower from surplus ammo.

With this set up I will have a complete rifle that will do everything I need it to and still come in under $700. About the only way I know you can do it cheaper is with the CMMG bargain bin rifles. Have not heard anything bad about them personally.

Mind you this is going to be mainly a deer rifle and the secondary duty as HD. Not going to hate the 5.56/.223 round. I just feel more comfortable with a slightly bigger round. Who knows I may get a 5.56/.223 upper one of these days.

Hope this gives you another route to think about.
 
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