Need help with bullet set back

[snnewbie2020]

I email RMR bullet and ask for COL recommendation but they refused to answer, 1.135" COL and 4.2 win 231 is the data from this forum, I have a pistol loading manual but it useless.
I think I will try shorter COL and see it help .
thanks

 

[NMexJim]

I'm going to assume you've set you're sizing die correctly. I separate brass by make and load in lots of a thousand. I'll check case length once just to be sure nothing is too long. As a 9mm seats on the case mouth, they get shorter rather than longer. After that I don't trim/measure again. But, the length will start to vary a little bit which causes more taper crimp on the shorter ones and less on the longer. I do't worry about it.

When a case comes out of the sizing die, I mic it at the mouth. I've used RCBS and Hornady dies both and a Win case comes out at .380, sometimes .381. I set my expander to bell about .003 larger over the sized case. Using .355 bullets, I set my taper crimp to take out only the bell - the case should be a pretty straight at .380 or .381. Should be good to go. I try for .380 but .381 is fine too.

So, 115 grain Sierra .355 FMJ, COAL is1.135, with 4.4 to 4.9 grains 231. Their 130 grain has a COAL of 1.135. 4.4 to 4.9 grains 231.
Speer 115 COAL is 1.135, 4.4 grains to 4.9 grains 231 powder and their 124 grn is 1.135, 4.0 grains to 4.5 grains 231 powder.

So, that's 4 votes for 1.135 and no mention of compressed powder charges. You should be good to go especially with a mid-range load.

If you follow the taper crimp method above, you shouldn't have to worry about the setback. You've got space between the bullet and the powder column, however if it makes you feel good, take it out to 1.140. Plunk test them to make sure they fit your chamber. Shoot, repeat.

 

[joneb]

Could be the Federal cases are thinner/softer not giving you the neck tension

That would be my guess.
I find some Federal, CCI, and Speer brass seems to be from the same tree. I find while re-sizing this brass some has very little resistance, I toss that in the scrap bin or use it with .356-.357" cast lead bullets.

 

[lordpaxman]

Yes I am new to reload, This is the first time I load this type of bullet , I got the information base on the Speer website and also for the highroad forum. 1.135” Col and 4.4 to 4.9 win 231 for 115 gr bullet and same Col with 4.0 to 4.5 for 124 gr bullet.
So do you think if I load it shorter COL along with less crimp and expand will help bullet set back? Of course I have to reduce powder and work it up

You should use published load data when you work up loads for your guns, not what Internet forums tell you to. I can tell you what I load, but it’s for my guns, not yours. I believe you’re using the Speer online data for their TMJ bullet, which is a plated bullet. You didn’t specify which RMR bullet you’re using, but if it’s RMR in-house bullet, it’s an FMJ, not plated. RMR is a great source for bullets, but it’d be ill advised for them to tell you how to load them.
I would suggest you look at the Hodgdon online data for the 125gr SIE FMJ which is a closer match to the RMR in house bullet than the TMJ. You’ll find data for 231 and a “tested” COL of 1.090”. That doesn’t mean you need to load this short but it’s another data point if you had this specific combination of components.
If you do decide to load to a shorter COL, it will most likely give you a bit more neck tension and a better burn. As others have stated, the taper crimp should only remove the bell. In fact, you should try the plunk test or a gauge without any crimp, just the seat operation. If they pass, you really don’t need to crimp. Good luck.

 

[243winxb]

Bullet Setback

Neck tension/bullet grip keeps bullets from moving. Size the brass smaller & and use a smaller expander. This may help.

My test with 45acp showed different brass will need from 40 pounds to over 100 pounds just to move the test bullet.
Measure case before & after seating a bullet. The outside diameter should get larger by .002" to as much as .005"



Best to use only the brand of brass that provides good neck tension. Brass has a memory. It want to return to its original size. The test showed this.

When using the same sizing die & expander, different brass will still provide different neck tensions.

 

[stillquietvoice]

gr bullet.
So do you think if I load it shorter COL along with less crimp and expand will help bullet set back? Of course I have to reduce powder and work it up

Try 1.130 and see if you still get set back, use your barrel and drop the round into the chamber. It should spin and fall out on its own when tipped over.

the second and third time it set back little less than first time( around .003")

If you still get some setback go to 1.125, 1.120...... Until it doesn't setback. Your chamber is your specific, a one of a kinds to speak, plunk the rounds do they fall out then rack to see if it's staying the same oal.
I have a Smith & Wesson 5904 my lead, free bore to lands, I'd rather shorter.
If you are at the low or middle of charge weight your charge should be alright, if near Max reduce 10% and start from there.

 

[243winxb]

Brass design- Many are different. Some have tapered wall thickness. Some have wall all the same thickness for the full length. Some have a step half way down.
All make a difference. View attachment 966111 View attachment 966112

 

[snnewbie2020]

You should use published load data when you work up loads for your guns, not what Internet forums tell you to. I can tell you what I load, but it’s for my guns, not yours. I believe you’re using the Speer online data for their TMJ bullet, which is a plated bullet. You didn’t specify which RMR bullet you’re using, but if it’s RMR in-house bullet, it’s an FMJ, not plated. RMR is a great source for bullets, but it’d be ill advised for them to tell you how to load them.
I would suggest you look at the Hodgdon online data for the 125gr SIE FMJ which is a closer match to the RMR in house bullet than the TMJ. You’ll find data for 231 and a “tested” COL of 1.090”. That doesn’t mean you need to load this short but it’s another data point if you had this specific combination of components.
If you do decide to load to a shorter COL, it will most likely give you a bit more neck tension and a better burn. As others have stated, the taper crimp should only remove the bell. In fact, you should try the plunk test or a gauge without any crimp, just the seat operation. If they pass, you really don’t need to crimp. Good luck.

 

[stillquietvoice]

Winchester white box 9mm NATO

 

[stillquietvoice]

124 liberty and 124 state line bullets note the shoulder just above case mouth on liberty bullet.
Step is. 336 allows longer oal 1.14

 

[stillquietvoice]

State line bullet width above case and oal

All run in my Smith bullet shape different for all bullets changed oal

 

[snnewbie2020]

Yes you are right I use RMR in- house bullets and the speer online load data base on some suggestion from this forum. I did not notice the different between TMJ and FMJ. Like I said I am a new loader and also a new shooter too so my knowledge about bullet and gun is very limited I decide to reload because I am run out of mamo and tire of waiting inline for hour to go inside the store and find out they don't have any ammo left or if they do it almost .80 cents per round .
back to the topic I am looking on the speer.com right now with the load data for their part #3993 it look identical to the RMR bullet. I am not sure if they are plate or not. anyway base on your advise look like I may had load it a little too long (1.135" COL ) that cause it loose the case mount tension.
would you give me your working COL so I have some idea to start my load again . I load it for spingfiled 1911 A1 model , i am sue Win 231 and CCI primer.
Thanks

 

[lordpaxman]

I load RMRs 124gr RN at 1.120”, and I stayed within the Hodgdon online data for 231 charge weights. They are under the max COL for my A1 and run fine in it. Keep in mind there are other factors that contribute to neck tension, COL is just one of them. Just shortening COL may not achieve the results you want. If you look at the base of the RMR bullet, if you see exposed lead, it’s a jacketed, not plated bullet. The Speer TMJ is a plated bullet but it’s supposedly a thick plate that mimics jacketed behavior. Good luck.

 

[Zendude]

Thank you all, I just check dimension on 10 of each bullets115 gr it is .3545" and the 124 gr is .355" very consistent.
test load 5 dummy round with less expand and very light crimp and the result come out lot better than yesterday. I load 1 round on magazine and release the slide stopper and let it riding the bullet on my CZ sp01 there is no set back at all but I still get set back on my Spingfiled 1911 A1 model each time about .005" to .008" ( yesterday I only use the springfiled to test it I didn't test on my CZ )
I took 2 Federal factory loaded round and point my gun to the safe area and do the same thing the result come out even worst , there was .01" set back on the springfiled and Zero on CZ SP01. I only own this Springfeild about a year and had shot about 1500 round all factory ammo and no problem at all other than couple of double feed . So what wrong with my springfiled ? does any one own this model of springfiled experience this problem ? I am scare to shoot it now and I guess with the new test today I am ok to load and shoot on my CZSP01. and BTW just a dummy question can I just load the COL a little longer to off set for the set back ? instead of 1.135" canI just load it to 1.145" ?
Thank you all guy

If it only happens with the Springfield, my first thought is that the Springfield has a short throat and the bullet is being jammed against rifling when the round is chambered. Not an uncommon issue.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Usually, setback is associated as a result of recoil and usually heavy recoil.

Setback comes from the cartridge hitting the feed ramp during feeding.

Sounds like over flaring causing loss of bullet tension.

Over crimping won't help.

Neither will long winded lectures.

 

[rfwobbly]

Yes you are right I use RMR in- house bullets and the speer online load data base on some suggestion from this forum. I did not notice the different between TMJ and FMJ. Like I said I am a new loader and also a new shooter too so my knowledge about bullet and gun is very limited I decide to reload because I am run out of mamo and tire of waiting inline for hour to go inside the store and find out they don't have any ammo left or if they do it almost .80 cents per round .
back to the topic I am looking on the speer.com right now with the load data for their part #3993 it look identical to the RMR bullet. I am not sure if they are plate or not. anyway base on your advise look like I may had load it a little too long (1.135" COL ) that cause it loose the case mount tension.

► In cooking, you can take a recipe, get nearly the same ingredients, mix them together, cook them at the listed temp, then Bingo! even an idiot will have great food. That is absolutely NOT how reloading works. In reloading they give you a tested recipe, then with training and precise measurements you must adapt it to your gun. This takes time, effort and understanding.

► You are having extreme trouble because of 3 issues happening all at once...
1) You are a novice and have many misconceptions. These issues will be cured with reading and discussion.
2) You are using a lead bullet which is slightly oversize from FMJ. It may look like others, but it does not measure like others, and this is changing many of your dimensions. Lead bullets are cheap, but they can make things much more difficult.
3) You are loading for guns with VERY short freebores, which changes your OAL. Again, you most likely cannot use the OAL shown in any book or on any website.

► The OAL listed on loading web sites is to REPORT the OAL they used in their testing. It is NOT a recommendation for you to use in your gun. You can only use their listed OAL if you use the same gun. Their test gun looks like this....



If this is not what your handgun looks like, then you need to change your thinking.


If you'll contact me through the Private Message system here, I'll try to send you some FMJ bullets that have a known OAL when used in a CZ SP01. Then we can work from there.

 

[murf]

do the plunk test for each bullet for a max oal. i agree with whomever said the bullet is jamming into the rifling. .003" setback is not a lot.

a bullet that catches the bottom of the feed ramp, or gets caught on the top of the chamber when feeding can set back .010" or more. i don't think that is the problem here.

luck,

murf

 

[Ironicaintit]

That would be my guess.
I find some Federal, CCI, and Speer brass seems to be from the same tree. I find while re-sizing this brass some has very little resistance, I toss that in the scrap bin or use it with .356-.357" cast lead bullets.

That’s my experience too. Old federal is fine, but newer brass that has the “dots” seems to never size where I want it.

 

[snnewbie2020]

► In cooking, you can take a recipe, get nearly the same ingredients, mix them together, cook them at the listed temp, then Bingo! even an idiot will have great food. That is absolutely NOT how reloading works. In reloading they give you a tested recipe, then with training and precise measurements you must adapt it to your gun. This takes time, effort and understanding.

► You are having extreme trouble because of 3 issues happening all at once...
1) You are a novice and have many misconceptions. These issues will be cured with reading and discussion.
2) You are using a lead bullet which is slightly oversize from FMJ. It may look like others, but it does not measure like others, and this is changing many of your dimensions. Lead bullets are cheap, but they can make things much more difficult.
3) You are loading for guns with VERY short freebores, which changes your OAL. Again, you most likely cannot use the OAL shown in any book or on any website.

► The OAL listed on loading web sites is to REPORT the OAL they used in their testing. It is NOT a recommendation for you to use in your gun. You can only use their listed OAL if you use the same gun. Their test gun looks like this....

View attachment 966138

If this is not what your handgun looks like, then you need to change your thinking.


If you'll contact me through the Private Message system here, I'll try to send you some FMJ bullets that have a known OAL when used in a CZ SP01. Then we can work from there.

Yes please, at least I have some thing to start with.

 

[NMexJim]

Let's be a little cautious here. The original thread was from snnewbie was for an RMR .355 bullet. Not a lead bullet with a diameter of .356 or more. Plated or not doesn't enter into the equation at this point. All we're concerned with is the .355 and that only to get some kind of reference so we can determine what the taper crimp should look like.

We all have developed our own ways to reload. Some may crimp to less than .380. That's fine for them and works for them. I have never personally seen the need to go under .380, but I'm ok with it. When I've loaded plated or lead with diameters of .356 or even .358 for lead, getting a taper crimp around .380 can become difficult without using undue force. In those cases, .381 or even.382 works just fine. Just fit the loaded cartridge to your barrel by "plunk".

Plunk shows when you're getting a COAL that's too long or the case too big as shown below.



The analogy to cooking was indeed for a "recipe", and I recommend using one if you're new to all this. But indeed, you will have to learn how to develop loads. It's part of the fun in reloading. We're picking this apart to make sure you're on the safe side, but really, if you follow a reloading data for using a similiar bullet (and I believe the TMJ and the RMR are similiar), and you stay in the mid-range of the suggested powder gains, you'll be fine. We all get a little nervous when we start out, and we should be. Caution is a good thing.

 

[snnewbie2020]

Update from today’s range test
I loaded 40 rounds of RMR 124 gr FMJ loaded to 1.12” col and 4.2 and 4.4 Win 241. It function good on my 2 gun but Springfield 1911 have a good group, I think I like it.
I also load 20 rounds of RMR 115 gr FMJ to 1.115 COL with 4.4 win 231 everything function good without any problems but the group is not I want. I shoot 3 inch circle at 21 feet hand help. Please see pictures
Now I gain little confidence now . Thank you all for your advice.

 

[lordpaxman]

Update from today’s range tes

It’s good to hear range reports, but did you measure setback with your newer loads?

 

[snnewbie2020]

Yes I did measure it , it only set back with my Springfield 1911 about. 003” to 005” and no set back with my CZ sp01. I took a federal factory round I tested it and found it set back even more
With my 1911 , it about .01” and still no set back with CZ. So think it’s more on my gun now than my load. I did shoot about 1500 rounds of these federal ammo in the past 10 months in my 1911 without issues so Just like some other said set back under .01” is ok
I also did a test by shoot a new factory round on both of my gun and found that on the back of the case that came out from my 1911 it had a little dent , I will post a picture of it when I go home today maybe you guy can help me out to correct the feeding on my Springfield 1911
Thank again for all your advice

 

[NMexJim]

Update from today’s range test
I loaded 40 rounds of RMR 124 gr FMJ loaded to 1.12” col and 4.2 and 4.4 Win 241. It function good on my 2 gun but Springfield 1911 have a good group, I think I like it.
I also load 20 rounds of RMR 115 gr FMJ to 1.115 COL with 4.4 win 231 everything function good without any problems but the group is not I want. I shoot 3 inch circle at 21 feet hand help. Please see pictures
Now I gain little confidence now . Thank you all for your advice.

YES! Good deal! Targets look good.

The dent is probably from the ejection port. No worries.

Don't jump on this too fast, but there is such a thing as tuning your pistol to your load using different spring sets. You can go on Wolff Gunsprings (they've been in business a long time) and see what it's about. Get some experience under your belt and study up on load development.

Cheers!

 

[snnewbie2020]

Here is the picture