Need help with Remington 700 decisions

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TonyAngel

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I've been messing with ARs quite a bit and have built myself quite a tack driver. The problem is that I've gotten to where I wanted to go with this rifle and am starting to get bored with it.

I was thinking of getting into a bolt gun and find myself in a position to be able to put one together, or really have one put together. I came across a Remington 700 LTR action. It has a Schillen (sp?) trigger in it and has had an after market bolt handle soldered to the bolt. From the looks, it's going to make manipulating the bolt a lot easier. I also sourced an LTR barrel that I can get cheap and only has a couple hundred rounds down the pipe. A local gunsmith also has a Krieger barrel blank, that was meant for the project that has been abandoned by the guy selling me the action. I can have the barrel cut to whatever I want it to be.

The price of the action, including the trigger and bolt handle is $450. I can get the LTR barrel for nothing. The Krieger blank is going to be just under $300 plus another couple hundred to have it worked and installed. All I'm going to need is a magazine rig or a plate(?) for the internal magazine. I can't remember what you call it. I'm also going to need a stock.

Now for the questions. How is the stock LTR barrel? I'm asking because I'm not committed to the Krieger, whether I buy the action or not. If the LTR barrels shoot well, maybe I can just start with that. What about a stock? I was looking at HS Precision, but I have no idea what length of pull it is that I'll need. How do I determine that? Do I go with a stockish magazine plate or is having a detachable magazine really worth it? I've notice that the extra mags for the detachable mag rigs are expensive.

Now, with all of this considered, is this going to be a can of worms and I'd better off just buying an SPS?

Thanks.
 
You can buy LTRs and don't need to be law enforcement. I'd check out the price and see how it compares to piecing one together. From the factory, based on the reviews, it should be sub-MOA. Also, factory Reminton triggers are very very nice.
 
The action sits at $450 - Has it been abused or ruined? You are buying an unknown, unless you trust the seller. If it has been trued then it would be an attractive buy.

You will be over $750 and have a ways to go.
My opinion is you would probably do better with a used rifle.

The detatchable mag has the cool and wow factor, but no advantage at the range or match in my case. Single loading is mandatory anyway. For certain events it would be nice. I just can't justify the cost. "Bottom Metal" is the term.

FWIW I like the McMillan stocks $$$. I modded my SPS stock. The HS precision is pretty nice.
 
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You can buy a turnkey remington 700 for under $500 nearly anywhere with hunters selling or trading in rifles. I'd start with a basic stock Rem700, learn to shoot it well, then move on to accurizing and custom parts once you can justify having them based on their increasing your accuracy.
Just because you have a Shilen trigger and a Kreiger barrel doesn't mean you can shoot it any better. If you can get this rifle to be shootable for about $500 it's worth doing right now that way you can get triggertime and start working on your skills.
I'm not trying to come across like a jerk, just that I know way to many people in way too many hobbies who spend way too much money to get the cool toys when they themselves are not being limited by the factory parts.
The Rem 700 factory triggers (pre-X-Mark-Pro at least) are very tunable and provide an excellent, light, crisp break and lack of creep when setup correctly. I had a Jard in a Rem700 I sold recently- very good trigger, but it took me a while to notice any difference.
I have a Rem 700 PSS with the detach mag option. To be honest it is a neat gimmick, but a box mag and bottom metal won't be any less accurate and you can get a benchrest singleshot follower for the blind mag styles. The DM magazines are about $45 each if you can find them. Kind of pricey for a 4-round magazine! I have found some trouble sometimes with doublefeeds and it happens with all of my DM mags, not just one "trouble" mag, so I have to think it's a problem with the design of the feed lips.
 
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I have a Remington Sendero in 270 win in a HS Precision Stock that was setup like an BDL with a hinged floorplate but converted it to take the factory clips by buying the FACTORY bottom metal for detachable mags. Now instead of jamming bullets past my scope (Burris Black Diamond, 8-32 x 50) I stay in position and drop the one mag for the other without loosing sight of target. Bought 5 clips on a dutch sale on Gunbroker so I have 25 rds available as needed. It was simple to install & did not loose my accuracy in the process. You may need to remove very little metal from the sides of the mag well opening. I did this to mine with a wide, flat file. Remeber just alittle if you need to.
 
tony - at the prices you have mentioned, i'd pass on this. if you can find a way to trim $100 from the action and $100 from the krieger i think you've got something to work with.

krieger barrels are good - i run a couple on my ar's - but they aren't the only game. the factory ltr barrels are good enough for most people and uses, but if you have an inexpensive opportunity to replace it you should. really, not many people can easily outshoot the factory barrel.

skip the detacheable mag - not worth it. i like the adl-style best. more rugged, less to go wrong, far less expensive. and you have an ar-15 for barrel heating activities, right?
 
The action looks new. I do trust the guy that I would be getting it from. After having looked around, I don't think that the price was bad considering that the trigger and bolt handle were "upgraded." I just don't know that it needed it. Where I am now, I can get into an action with barrel for $450. I can pick up an LTR stock for around $200. That puts me at $650 and all I'll need is the bottom metal. Right? If this is right, then it may not be a bad deal. I've searched around a bit for an LTR and they are going around $900 used. The Krieger barrel is just an option. I'm not considering it as a "must have."

On the other hand, I can buy a brand spanking new SPS for around $550 and have something ready to shoot out of the box. I hate not knowing. Going with the new rifle might be the way to go. An after market trigger isn't expensive and I don't know that I'd even need the new bolt handle. I haven't had a problem with the stock ones that I've messed with.

Does anyone know what twist the LTR barrel has? I was wanting a 1:10.
 
Geez, I've been looking around and now I stumble across the Savage Model 10 Precison Carbine. The model with the fluted 20" barrel with 5R rifling and threaded so I can add a can or brake if I so choose. I've shot Savages and I like them too.
 
My advice is to stray away from the Savage - it will limit options in the future and is not as solid as the Rem 700. The Shilen trigger is worth $100 dollars alone - it is a fantastic trigger - one of the best on the market - make sure it is the hunter version with the safety (not benchrest). As for barrels, the tuned LTR will normally get you in the 1/2 to 3/4 MOA range while the Kreiger will get you sub 1/2 MOA if done correctly. LOP is determined by measuring from the inside of your elbow to the center knuckle of your index finger (13.5" is considered standard). As for bottom metal on a budget build, stick with factory BDL for now and upgrade later, if you like - CDI Precision with AI Magazine would be the choice for future reference. Hope we were helpful. Please feel free to let us know if we can be of service, or simply make further suggestions.
 
I have an ADL Varmint. In the factory synthetic stock I get .59moa with my handload of 168gr SMK over 42grs of RL-15.
 
I really like my factory LTR .223, and it came with a Rifle Basixs 8oz trigger:) It shoots from .25" to .75" 5 shot groups with handloads, so I wouldn't be afraid of the barrel. I also wouldn't be afraid of the Savage! My 10FP .308, is another great shooter. What caliber are you building? I see 1-10" so I assume a .308?

Remington list the .308 LTR at 1-12"
 
Superior, that's the same advise about the Savage that some of the guys at my range gave me, and a couple of them shoot Savages. Not that it isn't a good rifle, but it has limited options, although they are growing. Now that you mention the safety, I don't remember if it has one or not, although I do remember the guy telling me that it breaks right at around 2lbs. Does that tell you anything?

I am still interested in the SPS from Remington, but do want the 1:10 twist. From what I understand it is desirable if I want to shoot the heavier bullets. I figure, why limit my options. I did find that the model with the threaded barrel does come with a 1:10 twist though.

I'm really thinking that I'm going to grab the action with the barrel and pick up a stock. Now that I know how to measure for length of pull, I have a better idea of what I need.

Thanks a lot guys. I'm so excited about this I'm going to see about the scope for this rig tomorrow. I was going to throw my 2.5-10X Nightforce on it, but I think I'm going to want a bigger one with Zero Stops. Probably some flavor of NP reticle too.

My question now is barrel length. 20" or longer?

BTW, off the wall question here, but I will probably never shoot past 500 yards with this rig. I just don't have the opportunity where I am. I'd also be interested in getting into a .223 rig, if a 1:9 barrel will shoot the 77gr SMKs well. It's what I feed my AR and would make life easier. What do you guys think?
 
if you won't shoot past 500 yards, you'll be fine w/ the 9-twist ar and 69 grain bullets.

also, since 500 yards is the limit, no need to sweat a 10 vs 12 twist on the 308. i run 168 hornady a-max in my 12-twist 308 and it will go 1000 yards. never tried 175's in it because the 168 loads shoot so well i don't care what the 175's do.

further, if 500 yards is the limit, barrel length isn't that big of a deal. you won't need the added velocity a longer barrel gives. so get the rifle that appeals to you.

last... the new trend in long range 308 is to run 155 grain bullets at 1000 yards. so if you are wanting the ultimate long range 308, even if 500 yards is your limit, you may find a 12-twist to be more desirable because it will theoretically run the 155's better.

anyway, i think you're sweating some of the details a little too much. find the rifle that appeals to you for whatever reason and go w/ that. for 500 yard shooting you're going to have a lot tougher of a time finding a 308 that won't do it well than you will finding one that will do it...

good luck!
 
My advice is to stray away from the Savage - it will limit options in the future and is not as solid as the Rem 700.
Click to expand...

That's very BAD advice....and this "not as solid as a Remington" bit, what is that...!?!

Have you had some type of failure with the Savage actions you have built?

How many 'options' does a man need...? I mean, buy a used Remington action for the same cash you probably can get a new Savage action....have you checked the remington action, is it sprung, are the threads still good, has it been 'worked on' before?

Don't get me wrong, the Remington 700 is one of the very best big time production actions made, but hardly 'the' best, what options would you need, or want, the extended magazine option, triggers... are you going all out on the bolt, sako extractor and bolt stop?

Savage's can and do offer all the above with the exception of the sako extractor, but hey, the Savage extractor is let's say, more positive and easier to service than the Remington extractor! Bolt handles, change them all day long with the Savage, and there are many configurations of Savage bolt handles to choose from.

The floating bolt head of the Savage system will save you a bunch of coin, comparatively, as far as accuracy is concerned, or spend the cash and square up that 700 action, since your building a 700 from the ground up, you might as well spend the money now, or settle for factory SPS accuracy later....bummer!


Not that I am a dyed in the wool, only like one brand, Savage fan, I build them both, but for accuracy vs. cost and time, go with the Savage.

A finely built Remington can't be beat, but it takes a bit more than screwing a barrel into a receiver to get a 700 to optimum level, a LOT more, and a LOT more cash!
 
Uncle Mike, I hear you. Like I said, I have shot Savages and there are guys at my range that are fans. Although I have been given the advise to stay away from Savage, the advise didn't come in terms of the 700 being a better rifle. Only that there are more "toys" for a 700 than there are for a Savage.

Down where I am, in south Louisiana, we do have a "master" riflesmith that EVERYONE that is serious about rifles takes their rifle to. He does good work and I know it's good because I've seen and shot the results of his work.

That having been said, I was unaware that changing the bolt handle and servicing the extractor was so easy on the Savage. At this point, I'm not really looking to super hot rod a bolt gun. I was just looking to push my skills. I know that most of my shooting is done at only 100 yards, but even at that distance, I think I've gotten all that I can out of my AR. It does do well and rivals many bolt guns, but it isn't quite the one hole, five shot group shooter that I would like to have. Everyone keeps telling me that I'll need to get a bolt gun for that.

Hey, even if I'm not good enough to realize the advantage of a bolt gun, at least I'll have a new toy.

As for the .223 vs. .308, the .223 is appealing to me, but only if I can shoot the same ammo out of it as I do in my AR, which is a 77gr SMK over 24gr of RL15. It would make life easier, but I'm not sure that the 1:9 twist on the .223 will accomodate the 77gr pills. If I have to change anything, I might as well go with the .308.

Last question, in general terms. Between the .223 and .308, is either caliber more inherently accurate than the other at my intended distances. It's going to be mostly for punching paper and occassionally varminting. I know that .308 is probably overkill for that purpose, but I'm not looking to save anything.
 
Save your time, aspirin and money, IF your doing the 100y thing for now, get yourself a factory Savage 12 Series in 308 and just shoot! The 12 Series will preform as well as the more expensive semi custom builds and for a lot less dough!

This approach should give you more time and money to hone those shooting skills for the long(er) range sessions, that will inevitably come, this is why I might choose the 308 over the 223. The 223 will do well to about 600y BUT, handloaded, heavy bullet, finely tuned ammo will be the fodder, not your run of the mill, bargain barn, AR ammo!

The ammo your 'probably' using in your AR, ain't going to cut it, used in a good bolt gun for long ranger work!

Neither the 223 or the 308 is more 'inherently' accurate than the other, the 308 offers a great deal more advantage with respect to distance shooting.
A 'one hole, five shot shooter' is going to be a trick to acquire, custom build or not. The Savage line will get you closest to this area and most of the time land you there, but remember, working up loads and many hours of practice is what it takes, the rifle is secondary!

And uh....there is no such thing as 'overkill' when it comes to paper punching or vermin dispatching! hehehe
 
On your partial tangent ....
I'd also be interested in getting into a .223 rig, if a 1:9 barrel will shoot the 77gr SMKs well
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A 1:9 is slightly over the edge for 77s altho some, luck of the draw, will shoot 75s and 77s OK. You want a 1:7, 1:7.7 or 1:8 for 75+gr bullets.
/Bryan
 
I know that I mentioned shooting an AR, but it's not a run of the mill AR. I built it from the ground up to be a short range precision rig. I don't think this rifle has ever seen a factory loaded round. My standard load for this rifle has been a 77gr SMK over 24gr of RL15 lit by a Remington 7.5 primer. With this load, I've gotten near .5MOA five shot groups enough to know that they aren't flukes. I also shoot this rifle for 20 rounds groups and most land right at 1.2" and I pulled an even 1" group off a couple of times. I think that's pretty good for 20 round groups. OK, that was another tangent.

I am thinking about the .223 for convenience sake, but I thought about it last night. If I go through the trouble of getting another rifle and I get a .223 and get one (or build one) that has a twist fast enough for the heavier bullets, I'm going to be wanting to shoot 80gr or over pills and I won't be seating them to 2.260. So, it puts me in almost the same boat as shooting another caliber.

I compared the costs to reload. Going to .308 will mean that I'll have to stock yet another primer and another caliber of brass and bullets. Another thing is the recoil. I know that .308 doesn't kick like a mule or anything, but I'm wondering if I'll be able to pull off a 200 or 300 round per day shoot with it. And, at that rate, do I have to worry about shooting out the barrel.

I hate to sound wishy washy, but the indecision is killing me.
 
One note on H.S. stocks, they have a removable spacer for the DM "upgrade" which is cut to accept their insert. That insert accepts only their mag.

I like the 700, most custom builds including H.S.'s are built on it. An SPS with a H.S. stock would make a great combo and can be had in a number of configurations. The used action sounds like a descent option as well. Find a stock style you like, pick a good mount and glass and you're there.
 
if you're shooting for groups with a bolt action, I'm not sure I'd be looking at a 200-300 round day. more like 20-80 for me.

and obviously there are variables, but you can count on a .308 barrel to go 5000 rounds. the military has even done tests to 10,000, where a lot didn't lose accuracy and some improved. that's all I know about that test, I don't know what their accuracy standard was. anyways, I wouldn't worry about shooting it out. by the time you do, you've put so much money in ammo the new barrel will seem cheap. and then you can upgrade to a 1:10 if you feel like it.

and .223 is a great round, but for me, if I already had an accurized 223 semi, my bolt gun is going up a caliber. and you never know, maybe youll find a place for the extra yardage.
 
kis2, I really don't know what to expect for a day of shooting with a bolt gun. I know that I burn up 200-300 rounds with my AR. I have a bunch of magazines and load them up with ten rounds each the night before I go shooting, if I have the time.

I also don't do the cooling periods. I usually don't stop shooting unless the heat mirage coming off of the barrel is so bad that I can't see the target clearly or the range goes cold.

I have very limited time to play and decompress, so I don't like spending the time waiting around.

I'm starting to lean more toward the .308 at this moment though. You made a good point, why not have something with longer legs if I'm going to get another rifle and I already have a .223 that shoots well.
 
TA, the dirty little secret about factory rifle accuracy is that most will shoot sub-MOA out of the box. Most shooters cannot. Your present groups suggest you'll be capable of pulling it off once you become familiar with the new platform.

I agree that fewer rounds, regardless of cost, is the rule for a large caliber bolt action. Mine generally sees 25 rounds per outing which can, depending on load, leave my shoulder a tad sore for two days. (30-06 with a 180gr. @ 2770 fps). I always allow for cooling between groups and this too helps with accuracy.

If you need to decompress by shooting alot in a short span of time I recommend taking along a 10/22 and firing it off between centerfire groups. It will give you yet another upgradable toy for less than a nice set of mounts and rings. If you want longer shots, look for a public hunting area and range a few field targets. It's always nice to see what can be done away from the bench.
 
Guys, I really appreciate all of the advise. From what I've gathered so far, I THINK I know a few things. The first is that I do still have my AR, which shoots really well, so a .308 it is. If recoil becomes a concern, I am a hand loader, so I'll come up with something for those 100 yard days. As for killing time between groups, Skyler hit the nail on the head, since it's what I did this past weekend, because I was a little light on ammo for the AR. I took a out 10/22 that I built last year, but never shot. It turned out to be a shooter with that Green Mountain barrel on it. I was getting a good 1.5" group using Wolf match ammo. It was really funny watching the bullet arc down to the target through the scope.

Anyway, what I'm not so sure about is what brand to get. I like the idea of getting that action my friend is offering me. The thing is that I'm not sure that I like the new bolt handle that he put on it and I'm not sure that I want to go through the trouble of baby sitting a build. I'm an "I want it now" type of guy. So, do I get an SPS and add to it later or get a Savage and try to do the same. From what I've seen, I think that the Savage may be closer to what I want out of the box.

So, the question now is Savage or Remington. In Remington, I'm considering the SPS. I can just throw it into an LTR stock. Lots of those for sale on the net. In Savage, I'm really liking the Model 10 Precision Carbine.
 
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