Need INFORMED results on AR platform

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

I am only looking for people that actual hands on experience so that I can make the best possible choice available to me.

I have a pretty large assortment of firearms but no semi-auto's in the rifle platform. First off, what I am getting this rig for is to join in the extermination of hogs in Texas. But I will also be bringing ALL meat back up here to the Hunters Feeding The Hungry program. With today's economy being in the crapper, not to mention the political thievery, there are a TON of hungry, homeless folks here that need all the help they can get. Kind of a 2 birds with one stone sort of thing. I am trying to plan for making the Texas trip for 3 days every other month so I need a rig that I can be extremely efficient with my time. I figure the AR platform is geared perfectly for this task.

Now, I am a pretty large fella and the extra couple of pounds of the AR10 platform will be of no concern. I don't plan on taking the overly long range shot, more than likely no more than 200 yards. BUT I guess I would like to have the availability of a 300 yarder if needed. I am DEFINITELY looking at a .308 based cartridge for 2 reasons. One being that later on I would like to maybe get a 338federal upper for it for fun and also I just like a lot of the .308 based cartridges out there.

I am kind of torn between the 260rem and the 7mm.08. I want quick target reacquisition (hence the AR platform) so minimal recoil with maximum terminal ballistics is the formula I am looking for. I have a couple of 7mm.08's in a single shot and a bolt and know the fantastic performance that this cartridge offers. Since I am looking for this in an AR platform, I need to know some of the drawbacks such as cycling/feeding problems this rifle may have with various custom loads. Same thing with the 260rem.

Suggestions are needed in all areas of this choice such as: Best choice make and model in either cartridges suggested. Possible other choices of cartridges that I may have overlooked. Re-load advise (I have been a re-loader for about 35 years so you wont have to "dumb it down") and finally, platform suggestions. I am not looking to go all "tactici-cool" but I will more than likely have a couple of odds and ends such as a really super good gun light and I will more than likely be getting some sort of night vision setup as well for the inevitable night hunts in the summertime.

I want to emphasize that this is NOT something that I am going to get paid for. I am not looking to go into the business of Hog removal or anything of the sort. This is more of a humanitarian mission to help people of 2 different states facing 2 different problems. Hunger and Hog damage.

Thanks for any information anyone can provide

PS. ANY suggestions or offers as to places to go in Texas ( I know a few but there are only so many hogs on them) will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Stack]

http://www.dtechsuperstore.com/Wildcat.htm
Start here and get an idea regarding caliber selection etc. Also, make sure you start with a good lower that's compatible with the upper(s) and magazines you plan to buy. They differ greatly with the AR 10 unlike AR 15 stuff.

 

[1stmarine]

Hi,
What do you want to kill with it and what ranges? realistically.
Here a very accurate and cost effective way to take down deer or hogs well past the 250 yards but rarely used this way anyway. I have poped a couple of coyotes around 500 yards too.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=564287

you see some 6.8loads, grendel and many others can do this and might do even more but is it really needed? I am asking you this as the cost per round is as good as it gets w/o being the .223 and its limitations.

I also have other AR15 calibers and 308 and 260rem but hardly use them other than target and occasional hunt.

I think a short and light 6.8SPC carbine or 6x45 are plenty and easy to carry all day. There are others of course but there are reasons to consider these and specially the 6x45 if cost/round is a concern and .223 is not suitable. Send me a PM if you want.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

1stmarine, As I stated in my post, this will be for hog hunting. Also stated was that I want an AR10 platform because I will want to add other .308 based cartridge uppers on it. Can't do that with a 15. I re-load so round cost is not that huge of a concern.

While the 6.8 is a great round, the AR15 does not suit my ultimate goal/needs. It would more than be suitable for the immediate task at hand in Hog shooting, but in the end, I want the bigger cartridge base that the AR10 provides.

 

[taliv]

ffil, what's your budget like?

i'd recommend looking at the GA Precision GAP10 or the Larue OBR. Both are well suited to the task. I'd personally lean towards the GAP10. On a budget, the DPMS 308 isn't bad at all and is a great donor gun if you want to build the lower and then get GAP to do the upper.

I can't speak from personal experience on terminal ballistics on hogs, but I know that you can get really good hunting bullets in both 6.5 and 7.62mm. At least 2 of the 3 above make rifles in 260rem. That's the caliber I'd go with.

btw, if you want another gun on the night hunts, pm me

 

[1stmarine]

Ok. I hear you.
no doubt you have your goal clear which is good. otherwise you might go crazy here with all sort of recommendations. I had good luck with the DPMS carbine. There is nothing huge or great about it but it simply works like a charm.
The best AR 308 that I have is not a budget one. In terms of performance vs. maintenance I am very happy with the Fulton and SI-defense builds. I use Lothar Walter barrels, in the carbine with light profile and a JP heat sink. That is 2-3 times more accurate than the DPMS and have used the fail zero system.
So for starting the DPMS carbine is a good start but if you want more then you need to look somewhere else.
My primary sources are Fulton Armory, SIdefense and Knights Armament.
Some things are reasonably priced and some are very expensive. It depends on what type of performance you need or want.

Regarding the offspring of the 308 winchester.
-The 308 win is a very good round, do it all do it pretty well type of round. no doubt. even a light load will take care of those hogs and will pop them like nothing.
-The 243 win is a very mild recoil load and cost effective bullet wise. If loaded even at average pressures it burns barrels fast but it is very easy to manage. Also very accurate.
-The 260 with 123 and 140gr is an excellent long range round. Even superior to the 308 due to the capability of the case to shoot some of the highest BC bullets available at
speeds above 2800fps. Definitively more energy on target and supersonic past the 1100yards. Also a barrel burner. Average 1000 rounds, accuracy life. You need a 24" or 26" to
maximize long rage performance.
-the 7mm/08 is a great option for long range too. not as flat as the 260 but at some ranges with better performance than the 308 itself. I think that something to consider but
the best 7mm bullets are expensive. Not a huge difference if you are planning to use a corelokt bullet. Better barrel life.
- 338 federal - this is a great round for big game all the way to brown bear, moose whatever. The ideal is in the 225gr for the moderate range but it does a great job and
average barrel life is very good. ...Slow twist, slow bullet.

Other options with the same bolt face and/or magazine....

- 6.5mm x 47 lapua. now this is not cheap to shoot but it is a joy. probably one of the most efficient cartridges in recent times. Extremely accurate with a good match barrel.
- 6.5 LR - this is one of the most attractive to me. This is a 6.5 top performer but is is proprietary so you have to contact Bob Withley for directions.
- 450 marlin - Special buid. Huge power. I think accuracy systems I saw will build you a nice upper.


Cheers.
E.

 

[The Sarge]

I live in the heart of hog country here in the Texas Hill Country.
Most hogs around here are shot/killed with AK's/SKS/Mosin Nagants...not many AR's seen hog huntin'. Average hog kill is well under 100 yards.
I shoot a converted Saiga for hog hunting. 7.62X39. AR's aren't really the go to gun for hog hunting as it is dirty,dusty and nasty out here. Not my rule just a fact.
I have shot and killed well over 100 hogs this year. My son in laws and Grandson many more than I. We donate the meat to Trinity Oaks....they dress/deliver the meat to orphanages and do a great job.

So basically I am saying the average hog hunter around here is killing hogs with a 7.62X39 round in the cheapest POS semi auto platform they can find

 

[TIMC]

AR's aren't really the go to gun for hog hunting as it is dirty,dusty and nasty out here. Not my rule just a fact.

All I can say to that is Hogwash!

I have been pig hunting with AR's in various calibers for quite a few years now; In South Texas I may add. I have them chambered in 6.5 Grendel, .308 and .50 beowulf; I also have AR's in .223 but i don't hunt large game with them.

My favorite of the bunch for pigs is the AR-10 in .308. Recoil is very manageable while shooting at multiple targets and I have found hand loads with 150 grain SST's to be super effective.



Next favorite but the newbie of the bunch is the 6.5 Grendel; I have only had this rifle for about a year but it is rapidly gaining favor with me. The rifle is light, quick to manouver, very low recoil and does a good job taking out pigs with hand loads using 129 grain SST bullets.



Next on the list is the .50 beowulf but it is too short on your range requirements. The rifle also is fairly ugly on recoil making it more difficult to track multiple targets. I like to use hand loads with 334 grain Ranier plated bullets which litteraly explode on impact and are super devistating on pigs.



The only cycling issues I have had to work through on ammo was when using the polymer tip bullets; they were being damaged on feeding into the chamber. This was corrected by shortening the OAL of the bullets a little below reccomended length to 2.780, I had no issues at this length on .308 and 2.260 on the 6.5 grendel.

Good luck on your Quest for the perfect pig rifle; I have been through a lot and the AR platform did it for me, others like the M1A were too heavy, the Romanian PSL was too long, the Kel-Tec RFB is close but too loud, The FAL was not optics friendly, The AK was not accurate enough, ect...

 

[1stmarine]

I think different areas in texas might have different styles and tastes.
Last year in a huge hog hunt we had at least 10 ARs big and small and yes, also some AKs and others. AK is very inexpensive and more than adequate, I agree.
Not much is needed. My son took out a big hog with a 22LR right behind the ear.

I have used these guys in texas and I think they have a huge following in the hog popping business. I had very good luck with any of their products...

http://ar15performance.com/

 

[1stmarine]

The Sarge,
you see what happens when you say ARs are not good for hogs? LOL!
seriously AKs are awesome too but ARs have a huge role to play too. ...Even there in texas.

 

[The Sarge]

The Sarge,
you see what happens when you say ARs are not good for hogs? LOL!
seriously AKs are awesome too but ARs have a huge role to play too. ...Even there in texas.

Oh I hear you friend.....I have mucho AR hardware in the gun room. Just saying the AK platform is much more prevalent and more than adequate for the job...at half the cost.

The goal here is dead pigs. I dont care how anybody does it frankly

You can call Wheelers Home and Ranch in Boerne, Texas. They can hook you up with tons of pigs around here. Many land owners will welcome you.

I just got used to the Saiga platform in 7.62X39 and 7.62X51...both deadly accurate and tough as Olga's toenails.
EDIT: and for the record...I never said AR's were not good for hog huntin'. I said AK were the semi of choice out in the bush for hog huntin'.

 

[TIMC]

EDIT: and for the record...I never said AR's were not good for hog huntin'. I said AK were the semi of choice out in the bush for hog huntin'.
Today 07:46 PM

Ok I'll give you that one. Just so you know my AR's ain't a skeerd to get dirty!

 

[1stmarine]

Oh man you shoot the saiga 7.62x51? the 16"t is a tack driver you know... http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=567005
I sold my M1A socom II and bought 3 extra of those and will never look back.
I miss the good old magazines but for the rest it has been an awesome system.

So, you see, like me, one can be an AR and AK fanatic at the same time.
I just love accuracy, wherever that can be found.

So, in response to the OP and to stay in the original conversation I think many folks agree he might do very well with the DPMS carbine. I saw a few weeks back an ad for $750 for that one. Cannot beat that deal. I paid a lot more for the first one when they came out.
Let me know if you want a picture. I need to see if I can find one but it is pretty much like this one... http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=46

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

First off, let me say thanks for all the responses so far. Second, let me further my post just a bit in letting you all know that I have 40+ years hunting hogs and most every other edible critter on this beloved continent. I've primarily hunted them with lever guns (.30/30 and .444marlin) and with pistol and with bow. Basically, like I said before, I am looking for that combination of staying on "print" and dropping another runner without having to search all over high heaven for the little squealer. So I need good terminal ballistics and low recoil. I know the 7mm.08 has low recoil in both my bolt and TC Pro Hunter and would more than likely be even less in an AR10. I will definitely be needing an adjustable gas system so I can dial in a perfect load without causing too much cycling problems. I.E. a faster powder for the shorter 20 to 22 inch barrel that I will more than likely get for maximum bullet performance.

Hopefully the Hornady 139gr Interlock or Interbond will shoot well out of whichever barrel I end up getting. Lord knows they do VERY well on hogs out of both my other 7mm.08's. So I believe I am down to getting one in 7mm.08 as I am already very familiar with the round, probably have over 700 139gr Interlocks laying around (found them on sale a couple years back ) and it's pretty much my "pet" cartridge. I feel it's what the .308 wanted to be when it grew up

Now for the platform build itself!! Decisions Decisions!! Man if we were talking "bolt builds" Id be at home seeing as I have built several. But all these new AR offerings out there will make a fella dizzy! I've whittled my choices down to 4. GA Precision (GAP10) DPMS (if I go the 260 route, they don't offer 7mm.08) Armalite (also 260 no offering in 7mm.08) and LaRue. I know with GAP they will build me a 7mm.08. The other three I don't know if they will or if I will have to send it elsewhere to be barreled. If I remember correctly, I will be able to use the stock .308 magazines for 7mm.08 and it will only need a barrel.

Sarge, I am not a big fan of the AK platform. Granted a good one will stand up to anything and still shoot but if it's not pinpoint accurate then Id end up using it for a boat anchor The AR platform isn't as much a little "princess" like it was when it first came out. They are very rugged nowadays. I just don't own one at the moment. I do have a VERY broad experience with them after carrying an M4 for quite a while in the service As far as that location you mentioned, if you wouldn't mind PM'ing me some contact information it would be greatly appreciated.

Taliv, THE MORE THE MERRIER! Just as long as you understand that the meat will be going to the Hunters Feeding The Hungry program.

Tim, NICE HOGS! You know once I start getting this going I will be bugging the hell out of you to take me/us (I am trying to put a couple of other guys together that I know are good hunters and will respect the land and land owners) out for some hog killin!

 

[wideym]

I've hunted hogs with my older Colt 7.62x39 AR on many occasions. Many companies build 7.62x39 uppers now, so you aren't limited to just Colt and C Products makes a ultra-reliable 30 rounder.

I like the intermediate range, hard hitting, and most importantly CHEAP round for clearing hogs. Russian Soft Points or Hollow Points can be had for just about the same price of FMJs.

The only time I've had to use a follow up shot is a couple of times I've missed the sweet spot and only wounded them, but that was just my marksmanship.

 

[1stmarine]

I can tell you why I went the Knights/DPMS/Fulton Route. The Knights/stoner has been there for a long time. DPMS seems well priced for all around systems.
DPMS, Bushmaster and Remington are all under the same group and therefore same standard.
The newly adopted sniper system by the military is the SR-25. That is a knights / DPMS magazine friendly.
Knights/DPMS/Fulton/etc.. compatible seems to be catching on. Otherwise the Rock Rivers has some very nice all around 308s if you already own a good stash of metric FAL magazines. Armalite are also great but for my purpose didn't provide any value added.
I do not recomend adjustable gas blocks unless for fine tuning.
for swtiching between loads you need something with a switch like piston systems with 3 or 4 present settings. PRI, JP, other are finicky to be switching. I do not like the set screw type, only clamp. there are reasons for that. not sure if subsonic is in the menu.

If recoil is a concern with 308, a mild load with a 110 or 120gr bullet will be much lighter on the shoulder and plenty for the hogs.

in 6mm, 6.5 or 7mm, the smaller the bore the longer the barrel to take advantage of that choice if long range is wanted.

I hope this helps.

 

[sixgunner455]

The only .308-class AR I've shot was a POF. It was fantastic, very accurate, had a super-nice Zeiss on it.

Sounds like you're convinced on the 7-08. Nice round, should do the trick for what you're doing.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

1stmarine, it's not my shoulder I am worried about as far as recoil. I own, and shoot often, a few .300 winchester magnums as well as a few other various shoulder destroyers including a 470NE that will knock the biscuits out of pretty much anyone.

It's more about muzzle rise and target reaquisition. If I get on a group of hogs I would like to be able to drop more than one out of the group. If it weren't for that reason I would go with something along the lines of a .50bush or a .458 SOCOM. I want something that I can stay on target with for multiple running shots and still have the dropping power. The 7mm.08, to me and my shooting form, seems to fit the bill about the best.

The reason I am thinking about adjustable gas system is because I will definitely have to tune up some loads with faster powders to make up for the shorter barrel to maximize performance. With that tayloring will most likely come some cycling issues. A tune type gas block will aid in the customizing of loads. Once I find the correct recipe and tune it will be left alone.

 

[essayons21]

The DPMS LR-260L pretty much fits your requirements perfectly. Makes sense as it was pretty much designed as a hog and medium game hunting rifle.

http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/firearm.aspx?id=22

.260 is a great cartridge, especially if you are a reloader.

I have the target version of this gun and I have been quite pleased with its accuracy and reliability.

EDIT: If you don't mind toting the extra 3 lbs, the LR-260H might have a little less felt recoil and muzzle rise, and a little extra MV than the lightweight model.

 

[68wj]

If you like the DPMS, but want a 7-08, look at Remington's R-25. It is rumored to be made by DPMS, but with the dip camo and improved trigger (again, hearsay).

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-r-25/model-r-25-rifle.aspx

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

TIMC, How does that skel stock feel on that .308? Reason I ask is I am looking at this package



It has the Magpul buttstock but for 100 beans less I could get this one



Also, after a brief search on reputation this company seems to be among the leaders in building the AR platform. Accuracy Systems International. Anyone here have experience with their products? They seem a LITTLE salty on price but it seems they use quality products such as Krieger barrels and such as that so they do seem on par with pricing. (Of course the wife will wholeheartedly disagree with that )

Next up, does anyone have any experience with the "Quiet Brake" featured here



I am assuming it's not a suppressor but just a quieter type brake for the actual hunting field that wont rupture your ear drums

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

68wj, thanks for the response but anything with Remington stamped on the side of it (other than ammo) I will no longer buy. Their quality has fell so far down the rabbit hole I don't think an oil drilling rig could retrieve it.

 

[68wj]

68wj, thanks for the response but anything with Remington stamped on the side of it (other than ammo) I will no longer buy. Their quality has fell so far down the rabbit hole I don't think an oil drilling rig could retrieve it.

Can't disagree, just wanted to let you know the 2 rifles are cut from the same cloth.

As for the Quiet Break, these types of muzzle devices direct the sound more downrange while still allowing some of the gas to escape at an angle from the muzzle. Here is a write-up about Black River Tactical's version of the product on a Ruger Scout.
http://www.blackrivertactical.com/index_files/Ruger Scout Gun Week.pdf

and more info on their site: http://www.blackrivertactical.com/index.html

 

[TIMC]

TIMC, How does that skel stock feel on that .308? Reason I ask is I am looking at this package

I love the Ace skeletonized stock on my AR-10; liked it so much I put one on my .50 Beowulf. The PRS stock is nice too and I have one on my Grendel but I would opt for the Ace stock for a serious pig hunter.

 

[Strykervet]

The LMT .308's and the (POF I think) looked the nicest to me when I was in Rainier Arms. I had a DPMS, but sold it.

They aren't as light as you think, not like a real M4.

I have a Grendel now, and it is much more accurate, lighter, and it hits HARD. Easily my favorite rifle. The 100gr. AMAX is superb once you figure out how to load it right. It has a high BC, so it doesn't lose too much energy in flight. If all you need is 300m, and hogs are your goal, I can't imagine a better weapon.

I have a Beowulf too, I have one of the very first ones, custom built. Super accurate at close ranges, at 100m it can send 'em all through one fat hole. At 200m, it falls like a brick. It hits like a freight train, truly amazing what that round is capable of. I tested it in the army and was totally impressed. It is a very popular hog round because of how hard that thing hits and the close ranges. Even the cheap 334gr. Rainiers are completely devastating, went through an interceptor vest (no plates) a jug of water, two cinder blocks, and a large railroad tie and then several inches in the ground. Three slugs were recovered, about the size of a silver dollar. I still have 'em. Oh yeah, I was impressed, and it is most certainly a keeper. I got my upper for free, wouldn't sell it for twice what it is worth.

Best of all, you can get one rifle and two uppers. That Beowulf will do like nothing else will at close range, and that Grendel is accurate out to amazing distance, and because of the high BC, it can retain more energy than the .308 can.

The .260 would be nice, but like was mentioned, AR10's are not standardized. The .260, 6.5 Lapua, and 6.5 Creedmore are also just Grendels with more velocity in a heavier rifle. The .338 seems like a killer round, a real sleeper if you ask me, and to 300m I couldn't think of a better round in an AR10/M4 style platform.

Lots of options, but for me, I like the smaller and lighter AR platforms. If I were to drop money on an AR style .308, it would most definitely be the SCAR17. Simply because it was adopted (albeit in small numbers) and because FN made it. Had good luck with FN in the military, always. The SCAR17 also allows quick change barrels, so perhaps you can find a barrelsmith to cut a .260, .338, whatever.