Need load help for my 1860 Conversion ,{1871/1872}

[Wildfire]

Hey :
I just bought a new Uberti 1860 Conversion .. It came with 1871 and 1872
stamped on the side.
So call it what ever ..
8" .. I used Magtech 250 grain Cowboy loads to sight in .. At 20 yards it holds just over 1" ... Hits 3" high after adjusting the rear sights.
I wish to find loads for the 200 grain cast SWC. I was always told that only BP could be used in these.. I am finding that not many use BP ...

Anyway . I see a lot of info on the smokeless side . My speer manual calls for a 13.4 grain load of 2400 under a 250 . Any one ever use 2400 in a .45 colt ?

I guess I would be fine with BP .. Has anyone used Pyrodex "P" in the .45 colt ???
Hodgdon said RS would give less PSI and may be safer.. I do not use RS ..
What help can any of you give ?

Also , should I use Mag primers with the BP ? That would be my guess..

Hodgdon said as long as the BP was slightly compressed it would work fine.
Any experiance here.....?

 

[Foto Joe]

I've been playing with 45LC's and 38 S&W's for the last couple of months. I can tell you that once you start loading BP in cartridges that were "Originally" designed for Black Powder, there is no hope as you will become addicted.

Give this thread a read or PM me for more info: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=542813

 

[Wildfire]

Thanks.

Hey There;
I had a .45 long colt years ago. A ruger Black hawk.. I loaded that gun very very hot and shot it to death.. Literally..

I killed many deer with it.
But , since then have hunted with an Encore only for deer.
I live in Michigan and we have a very liberal deer season.. I may not be a pro but can fire expert at most any range.
Almost 40 years of hunting with a hand gun , I feel I know what can and can not be done with one.
My intensions are to kill some deer this fall with my 1860 conversion.
If I can safely shoot that replica at the 14,000 or below PSI they talk about I am sure I can do this.

The Cowboy loads that I thought were BP are not.. No smoke at all.
But velocity is only around the 750 mark. I would like to see more like 850 to 900 FPS if it can be done with out hurting the gun.

After talking with Hodgdon powder co. about using BP they said it must be compressed. Or problems will result. PSI spikes ect ..

This is what I was asking about and if anyone had any experiance with the BP thing.
I am a Pyrodex fan and have been for many years ..

Your other post was right .. The RB has no recoil at all. The 250 grain Cowboy loads are very accurate at just over 1" at 20 yards.
This would likely be my shot for deer. We have so many now that we can take 2 bucks per year and 5 doe per day ..
I have had more issues with getting the deer away from me far enough to get a decent shot with my Encore.. So, the old style hand gun would work just fine on the smaller doe that we are required to take off that farm.

I have so many other guns to choose from but WANT to use this one.
I also have an 1860 Cap and Ball that shoots very well too.

But after firing this conversion gun I have become so hooked it just aint right.

My main goal was to see if any one had a pet load that would lessen the time it would atke me to find one. I own and operate my own truck over the road and get very little time lately..

Thanks for the fast reply .. I do not wish to make a magnum from this thing just get a little more than those Cowboy loads will give me without hurting that gun..
Thanks again.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Wildfire,



If it was me, I would stick with BP for that Revolver, even though in theory, since it is a cartridge Arm, probably well able to stand off the shelf Loadings, I would prefer to be nice to it and not strain things.

BP, with or without some Cream of Wheat filler, should work very well for that 200 Grain Wadcutter...and a less than full charge would likely work best for accuracy and good FPS with it.

Leave no air Gap with BP.

Traditionally, one compressed the Black Powder at least somewhat in Loading the Cartridges.



A Cartridge Conversion 1860 should be no less strong than a Cap & Ball 1860 would be, which is plenty strong for full BP Loadings, and, light to medium weight Bullets if not electing Ball.

Heavy Bullets ( over 250 grain, say, ) might be a strain...even 250 might be a strain.


Far as my thoughts go...

My own acceptence for myself, is to allow 'Smokeless' for Arms which were clearly made for it, and, Black Powder for those made for Black Powder, as well as BP for anything made for Smokelss, Revolver wise.


Black Powder is by far the most pleasure to Shoot with for Revolvers of any era.

 

[the Black Spot]

if the magtech 250's are that accurate, why not use them for your deer hunting. i would bet money that the 250 grain bullet would pass through a deer side to side up to 50 yards.
if i were going to load black powder in the 45 colt i would use a drop tube to drop the powder in the case. i would not go over 35 grains with a 250 grain bullet. i would seat the bullet so that the powder is compressed down an 1/8 of an inch, then crimp the case on the bullet. my two cents for what it is worth.

 

[Wildfire]

Very accurate .

Hey :
Yes these are very accurate.
But , I must say . This is the first box of factory ammo I have bought in many years .. I have always fire my own reloads. Over 30 some years of it now.
I intend to reload for the pistol.
My reason for the 200 grainer SWC was that I have many , as I have a magma caster and luber.. The lube is already mostly bees wax. And I guess some parrafin.
Anyway , The 250s shoot so well I wanted to see if I could make teh same load. Just heat it up a bit. The recoil from them is very mild and I am one that does not like recoil..

But , I also do not like $37.00 per box for 50 rounds of pistol ammo..
I will use some of the ideas I have recieved here .. I am leaning toward the BP thing .. I agree that these were meant for BP and not smokeless.

Using smokless could make an issue some day ..
I will be cleaning it after every use anyway..

And I love the smoke........
Thank you all.

 

[Wildfire]

Results.

Hey :
I loaded 10 rounds with 35 grains of Pyrodex "P" Waxed cardboard wad {thin} on top and then a 200 SCW Cast..

I got 932 FPS ave. with only a few FPS difference . But , They shot a lot lower than the 250 Cowboy loads did ..
And My groups went to the right of the bull. 1.5" right but right on up and down. 2.5 " groups.

The gun fouled fast and was hard to turn the cyclinder.
Recoil was not bad but was more than the Cowboy loads.

The Cowboy loads flew at an ave. of 684 with the high at 741 and the low at 632 .. Yet they still group very tight , just higher .. Fired 10 rounds of those and got a 1.5" hole in the target .

Go figure hey ..

I am guessing it wants a heavier bullet ..

BYW , I had to rag out the barrel after 5 rounds with the BP .. It would not turn the cyclinder and I got nerved up.

Very little smoke from the "P".......
Really dirtied up that brass..

Thought Ya may want to see what happened..

 

[Oyeboten]

Interesting..!


You might try making and using Lube Wafers...I have been really happy with how nicely they prevent Fouling and allow easy clean up later...but, I have not shot any Pyrodex to see how they would work with it...only BP.


The ones I make are narrow strips of Paper Towel, run through a Molten Bees Wax with a little Olive Oil in it, let cool, cut out 'discs' with a circular Punch, put between Powder and Bullet.

Never any hints of Cylinder binding or anything...fouling seems to fly away and the little which remains is soft and thin.

 

[flibuste]

Hello,

I have various cal44. Colt replicas 1860 and 1851 from Pietta and have shot full BP loads with 255grs bullets : I would not recommend this load which put too much strain on the frame, specifically the wedge and arbor parts.

I have downsized the load until the strain become reasonable and ensure the perenity of the pistol and eventuallly come to this :

Lee 200grs bullet and under 30grs BP is the maximum that the gun would accept on the long run and I even have come to 20grs BP and 10grs of cornmeal with adequate accuracy.


Shooting at 25 meters with rest :








But of course I do not hunt but only punch paper at 25m.............

have fun

 

[Foto Joe]

I loaded 10 rounds with 35 grains of Pyrodex "P" Waxed cardboard wad {thin} on top and then a 200 SCW Cast.

Don't give up on shooting this thing yet. Your fouling problems can probably be mitigated rather easily. First off if you are using REAL "Waxed Cardboard", that could be a very large part of it. Parrifin wax and BP don't like each other at all. Secondly, I realize that you might not have any choice in your area, but Pyrodex was not introduced because it's cleaner.

When loading conicals I use ones that are pre-lubed with SPG. When I load RB, which is most of what I reload 45LC with, after compressing the powder I use an SPG stick and just scrape a bit off all the way around the case. Then I add filler if needed and seat the ball.

You might also want to consider before seating the bullet to put something between the wad and the bullet. You don't want that wad sticking to the bullet base going down range as it will effect the trajectory. Depending upon what my powder charge is, I use varying amounts of cornmeal as a filler above the wad and below the ball/bullet.

 

[ClemBert]

I've been loading 45 Colts with 40 grains GOEX FFFg, a unlubricated Walter Wad, and a 250 grain RNFP .452 bullet. The bullets came with smokeless crayon lube. I just melt it out and replace it with my own mix of Crisco/beeswax lube. I haven't spent much time analyzing the accuracy. I just do it for fun for the smoke-boom effect. I do shoot this load from a SS ROA so there never is concern that the load might be too much for this particular revolver. I do have a Walker with a conversion cylinder and I need to try these cartridges out in it when the weather cools in a couple of months. Of course a Walker shouldn't even flinch with such a light load.

I wish I had a Crony to see what these things are doing.

I wonder if dipping my Walter Wads in my Crisco/beeswax mix would add much more lubrication. The heat from combustion of the BP should cause the Crisco/beeswax to become a hot spray/vapor. Wish I had a high speed camera to see what happens as the bullet leaves the barrel.

 

[Oyeboten]

I would expect Natural Lubes - when between Bullet and Powder - to be vaporized.


The Lube Wafers I use appear to do this, as far as I can tell, and I end up with a very light, non greasy, very easy to get along with coating on the Revolver, which it turns out, here anyway, allows the Revolver to sit around un-cleaned for six months so far with no sign of any oxidation, after shooting fifty odd rounds of BP.

The coating is so slight one would not notice it, but, it is there.


I see no point in using a thick Wad, nor an unlubricared Wad...or any Wad at all.


The only reason I use Bees Wax Olive Oil saturated Paper Towel, is for the Paper Topel to be a medium for holding the Lube...and, far as I can tell, the tiny disc of Paper Towel disappears instantly when the charge is let off.


I have had no Leading, and, Velocities for the most part are in the 900 - 1100 FPS range in Cap & Ball, if more like 800 so far in my 3 inch .45 Colt S&W Revolver with 35 Grain BP and a 260-odd Grain Bullet.


Very thin Lube Wafers ( mine are about .040 thick ) allow less Powder to be displaced, and or deeper Bullet Seating, if this matters...and sometimes it may.

Light Charges with 'filler' of course have extra room anyway.

 

[Wildfire]

New results

Hey Again:
Well I loaded up 10 rounds with 8.0 grains of Unique. 200 BBSWC cast bullet and CCI 300 primers. Not bad. Recoil was mild. And they tossed about 1.5" groups just abouve the 1 3/8" Bullseye. At 20 yards.
Average Velocity ran 881 FPS from the 10 rounds.

I have not given up totally on BP. But this makes a very nice smokeless load.

The gun did not get sticky..

I will be ordering a new mold from Magma for a 255 grain bullet and try that when I get it..
BTW my extreme spread on teh unique was 58 FPS.. BP was the best in that regard. Factory Cowboy loads were over 100 FPS extreme spread. Yet still grouped well.

Oh well , Guess it only matters if it matters.

 

[BHP FAN]

I'm thinkin' those'll work just fine, being only 100 FPS faster than the ''Cowboy'' ammo....

 

[sjohns]

BHP FAN!

Just be careful with that Cimarron. I got one too recently and after shooting it inspecting it during cleaning, I noticed that those cylinder walls are REALLY thin.

I know that R&D, when it was still a worthy place, and Kirst sort of refused to make a 6 shot gated conversion due to fears of metal failure in the cylinder. I can understand that misgiving. I had been shooting some copper jacketed 45 colt rounds that I had. MV was still around 960.

Just stay away from the plus P's and all that sort and when you load and use a crony, keep that stuff in mind.

I'd like to be able to use more modern ammo in it and learn to reload it as well, but another problem I have is whether the barrel is up for it or not. I was thinking that it might be best to get the barrel sleeved, but R&D seemed to be the only place that offered it. So if Howell's offered that service I'd just as soon forego it as I don't want to 80 years old when I finally get it back.

The only other option that is a good one, afaics, would be to use only soft lead bullets.

 

[Oyeboten]

The 1871-1872 'Conversion' sounds like it is actually an 'Open Top' or Transitional Model, and not a 'conversion'.

But for any of them where Metallic Cartridges can be used, if in doubt about the strength of the Cylinder, maybe just stay with Black Powder Loads, and, mid-strength ones at that.

 

[Wildfire]

1860s

Hey :
I ordered an 1860 conversion .. Here is what the manual says.
It shows a {U.S. Richards Model} {Model 1851 Richards Mason Conversion}
{1860 Richards Mason Conversion} and also a {Model 1871-1872 Open top}
Same manual covers them all.

The 1871-1872 has a slightly different barrel. It has a slight rise just in front of the cylinder on the top of the barrel. Mine does not.
But , My gun is stamped on the side 1871-1872 ...
The box has Stoeger Model 9031 Richards Mason 8" on it.
Yet the manual calls it a 1860 Richards Mason conversion..

I may never really totally understand all of it . But mine sure shoots nice.