Need your expertise

[Walkalong]

I'll add Silhouette and N340 if you happen to have some.

 

[somethingbenign]

Since we are in the process of answering very newbie questions. For those of you that use Lee dies do you use the load data that comes with them or do you use a load book? I was given some old load books for the technique parts but was told the load data is grossly out of date.

 

[jmorris]

I haven’t loaded any 155 gn 9mm loads but have won a lot of wood with 3.1gn of VVN310 with a plated 147gn RN @ 1.160”, soft and makes minor all day everyday.

 

[ray15]

Since we are in the process of answering very newbie questions. For those of you that use Lee dies do you use the load data that comes with them or do you use a load book? I was given some old load books for the technique parts but was told the load data is grossly out of date.

It may be one and the same. The Lee data is a compilation of data published elsewhere, often by the powder manufacturer. And while there are good printed manuals, load data itself is generally available from the website of the powder manufacturer and is free for the taking. For instance if you use a Hodgdon/Winchester powder they have pretty extensive data available.

Many powders have changed in formulation over time. As well, pressure measuring equipment is better than ever. So the newest data is probably the safest.

 

[Dudedog]

I normally use 124/125s but for full power loads both BE86 and CFE-P work well..
Not quite as much velocity on top but I also like WSF and it also works well for midrange loads.
All meter well thru the Lee autodrum.


WSF small flattened balls, meters well
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=37

HP38/WIN231 (same powder) is a faster burn rate but has shot well for me with 115s.
it also meters well and would work well for midragne loads.
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=81


For your USPSA.IDPA loads you want something less than full power, something right around say 130 PF. (I cut it a little closer at about 128-129)
Bullet in gr*vel/1000 = PF
So an easy example 125gr bullet at 1000 fps makes 125 PF barely. I generally load 124gr bullets to about 1030-1040 for matches.
PF rounds down so 124.9 is 124! You want to give yourself some "wiggle room" to make sure you make PF.
Much softer than factory ammo makes it easier to get back on target quicker.

 

[thomas15]

Since we are in the process of answering very newbie questions. For those of you that use Lee dies do you use the load data that comes with them or do you use a load book? I was given some old load books for the technique parts but was told the load data is grossly out of date.

The result of being even 1 grain overcharged can ruin your gun or worse. I don't want to say that the data that comes with Lee dies is not dependable, it is. What it isn't is complete or exhaustive. I have some Lee dies and the data on mine isn't up to date either. I consider it a starting point. I just purchased Lee dies for 38 long/short Colt and there is approx 4 loads on the sheet. That's not a lot of data. Given the nature of this hobby and the cost of a mistake it is a very good idea to have several up-to-date load manuals.

The Hodgdon Annual is inexpensive (less than $10.00) and has a lot of data and up to date with respect to Hodgdon/Winchester/IMR powders. Alliant has a free data book, updated yearly, it is a bit abridged but has all of the latest (alliant) powders, you can order one from their website for home delivery. Western (Accurate and Ramshot) has a downloadable data book at their website. Check with your LGS, they should have a free "basic" Hodgdon load guide. Then open up your wallet and pick up a few such as the Hornady and Lyman load manuals.

 

[Toprudder]

I will add my +1 for BE86. My wife and I shoot a lot of 115gn 9mm. I've used mostly Xtreme RN plated, but have also use RMR plated and FMJ, I really love the RMR FMJ in my 16" carbine. Zero makes a bullet that is almost identical to the Hornady HAP bullet (but cheaper) that I have shot some, but they have to be seated very deep to chamber in all my guns.

 

[thomas15]

Most data books, such as the Hornady (and I'm NOT a salesmen for Hornady) denote which data points perform best in a given caliber. This is useful because for handguns, 9mm for example, there are literally 40 or 50 powders and hundreds of bullets that could be used however only a few loads are "the best".

 

[wrench459]

155gr bullets are very long and heavy.
I would shoot for a coal of 1.160 if your gun is saami spec.

 

[somethingbenign]

That brings up another question. I've heard OAL for overall length, I'm guessing COAL is the same but C stands for cartridge? Did I mention I'm just starting out, thanks for your patience.

 

[wrench459]

You'll need to find the CBTO of each bullet manufacturer using YOUR barrel.
Once thats known you can use OAL/COAL of the bullet.
EDIT: Round not bullet.

 

[M118LR]

Slug your chamber than we can converse about Coal/Oal, engaging the rifling vs free bore remember that the 9 mm doesn't index on the rim, indexing is on the case mouth for 9 mm rounds. It matters! JMHO.

 

[Walkalong]

I've heard OAL for overall length, I'm guessing COAL is the same but C stands for cartridge?

Yes. Same thing.

 

[Walkalong]

You'll need to find the CBTO

Now this I don't know.

 

[Toprudder]

Most data books, such as the Hornady (and I'm NOT a salesmen for Hornady) denote which data points perform best in a given caliber. This is useful because for handguns, 9mm for example, there are literally 40 or 50 powders and hundreds of bullets that could be used however only a few loads are "the best".

Lyman will list which load they found to be most accurate (indicated in bold) but for most of the loads they publish the data were collected from a universal receiver, not an actual gun. It may be a good place to start, but may not be accurate in YOUR gun, and what is a good accurate load in your gun may not be good in MINE.

FWIW, Hornady won't show which specific load was most accurate, but they do often mention in the text which powders performed well for them, so that is often a good place to start.

And you are right, just because there is a published load for a given powder, it does NOT mean that it will perform well. I've run in to that several times.

When it comes to the most useful information, Ken Waters "Pet Loads" book is high on my list. The information is dated, but if you are using a powder that has been around for a while, I highly recommend it.

 

[thomas15]

When it comes to the most useful information, Ken Waters "Pet Loads" book is high on my list. The information is dated, but if you are using a powder that has been around for a while, I highly recommend it.

I think that Pet Loads is a fantastic book and handloaders should own it. However, given that a lot of posters, nice as they are, face a budget situation that confines them to entry level tools or agonize over purchasing just 1 pound of powder to play with, they are as a result not going to spend the money for that particular book. I forget exactly how much, but I paid over $50.00 for my copy. Also, and again, I love Pet Loads, it is not, as you say, as up to date with respect to the new powders. But it is still worth the cost in my opinion.

Of course you are correct in the fine detail about how Lyman and others test their loads and decide which loads are best. It is as you say a good starting point. My point wasn't to say that the published "best loads" is gospel, rather I agree with you that it is a good starting place. The search for the best is decided by trial and error with the specific gun. There are many powders that will work, of course, however in some applications even in published loads, they are not good loads. My attitude reflected in my posts has always been consistent, the handloader should own several load manuals.

This brings to mind a situation where some consider it sport to be critical of those who use progressive presses, making the claim that they are more interested in speed over quality. This is unfair and not actually true. I have an 8' long bookshelf packed with handloading books and use a progressive press for most of my pistol handloads. I have 4 presses, only 1 is a progressive.

 

[somethingbenign]

I think that Pet Loads is a fantastic book and handloaders should own it. However, given that a lot of posters, nice as they are, face a budget situation that confines them to entry level tools or agonize over purchasing just 1 pound of powder to play with, they are as a result not going to spend the money for that particular book. I forget exactly how much, but I paid over $50.00 for my copy. Also, and again, I love Pet Loads, it is not, as you say, as up to date with respect to the new powders. But it is still worth the cost in my opinion.

You are reading my situation very well with this post. As I get further along and my work situation becomes more stable I will have little problem have three or four "test" powders laying around or a dozen loading handbooks. Right now I don't have the luxury. I'll most likely get a Hornady book. I like their factory ammo and they are local.

 

[LiveLife]

The guys I learned from about carrying a pistol all use critical defense. Friend of mine that is a coroner also recommends it because he has "seen what it is capable of." Never really considered anything else but I'll take a look at those Gold Dot.

And if you talk to different groups of guys, they may recommend something else, likely Gold Dots. The guys I learned from recommended Hydra Shok ... but that was like 25 years ago.

Over the decades, I have switched my defensive ammunition from:

• Federal Hydra Shok to
• Winchester Black Talon to
• Winchester SXT (Same eXact Thing as Black Talon - officially "Supreme eXpansion Technology") to
• Winchester Ranger T to
• Speer Gold Dot and Remington Golden Saber for 9mm/40S&W/45ACP and Winchester PDX1 Defender for 380Auto.

9mm Luger ... IDPA/USPSA

... would like to match my reloads to my carry ammo as closely as I can ... Hornady critical defense [115 gr] bullets.

First thing, we as reloaders simply cannot match factory powders as ammunition manufacturers use different lots of powders that are not available in canister forms we buy. As far as I know, Alliant BE-86 comes closest to actually having been used for OEM/factory powder for premium defensive ammunition.

Second, while 115 gr bullet may show higher energy rating on paper than 124 gr, many prefer the heaver 124 gr bullet for defensive rounds. Besides, most IDPA/USPSA loads more often use 124 gr bullets loaded to 125-130 minor power factor (around 1010 to 1050 fps) instead of 115 gr because match shooters prefer the softer felt recoil that allows them to get back on target faster compared to more snappy felt recoil of 115 gr loads.

Third, 115 gr FMJ/RN bullets have shorter base/bearing surface that gets seated into the case neck and to engage the rifling and 124 gr FMJ/RN bullets with longer base produce greater neck tension for more consistent chamber pressures (and resulting more consistent muzzle velocities/SD numbers) and better engage the rifling for greater rotational stability in flight which all result in smaller shot groups on target.

Lastly, I have done comparison testing with various defensive ammunition and my match loads loaded around 125-130 PF and POI difference on target was about 1" higher for defensive loads at typical defensive shooting distance of 7-10 yards. So range practice with lighter target loads will have applicable benefit for defensive shooting accuracy. Many will tell you (including me), in the end it's trigger time with your pistol that truly matters how well you shoot your pistol and not the type of load you shoot.

As I get further along and my work situation becomes more stable I will have little problem have three or four "test" powders laying around or a dozen loading handbooks. Right now I don't have the luxury.

I have used bulk Gold Dot and Golden Saber projectiles to reload comparable rounds for range practice (I use factory ammunition for SD/HD purposes and while I am not against reloading my own defensive rounds, I prefer to give police boxes of factory ammunition instead of them taking my entire reloading set up for evidence to duplicate my rounds for the duration of the trial if defensive shooting were to take place ).

For over two decades, Winchester Super Field has been my powder of choice to load duplicate factory ammunition due to higher velocities it produced over other powders but since Alliant released BE-86, it has now become my powder of choice as it produces comparable/higher velocities and greater accuracy.

Here's my 25 yard group with BE-86 and Glock 22/KKM 40-9 conversion barrel - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ts-and-discussions.778197/page-6#post-9924922

Until your pistol accuracy improves on target, minute benefit from using different powders may be overshadowed by your reloading skill (Most of our reloads are more accurate than we are able to shoot ). 9mm is small internal volume case and small changes in reloading variables can result in big differences in chamber pressure and group size on target.

I think for now, starting with well metering (around .1 gr powder charge variance) small granule powders suitable for accuracy at lighter target loads meeting 125-130 power factor may be a better option. I would suggest moderately fast burning to faster burning powders for IDPA/USPSA minor PF loads (WSF, BE-86, W231/HP-38, Sport Pistol and faster burning) which all meter well with Sport Pistol metering with less than .05 gr variance for me.

FYI, my 9mm 115 gr reference round is loaded with 4.8 gr of W231/HP-38 or Sport Pistol and 124 gr reference round is loaded with 4.3 gr of W231/HP-38 or Sport Pistol at 1.110" to 1.145" (depending on the barrel/leade length).

For pure economy of reloading, I use Alliant Promo (using Red Dot load data by weight as indicated by Alliant) for my general purpose/range practice 9mm/45ACP plinking loads. At $113 for 8 lbs, it's the lowest cost pistol powder - https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

For 9mm 115 gr FMJ/RN, I use 4.0-4.2 gr and with 124 gr FMJ/RN, I use 3.8-4.0 gr. While Promo meters with .2 gr variance, it still produces sufficient accuracy for me to consider it for USPSA match shooting.

50 Yard group using 100 gr bullet with Promo with reference W231/HP-38 shot from 17" JR carbine - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-9mm-40s-w-45acp.799231/page-3#post-10245856

 

[LiveLife]

FYI, here's a listing of powders by relative burn rate I compiled for my reference use - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-9#post-10644921


Faster burning pistol powders:

E3 - Competition - Nitro 100 - N310 - Norma R1

Red Dot/Promo - IMR Red - Clays - 700X - Bullseye - Vectan Ba 10 - IMR Target - TiteGroup - Vectan AS - Am. Select - Solo 1000 - WST - International - Trail Boss - N320 - Vectan Ba 9.5 - No. 2 - Clean Shot/Lovex D032.03

W231/HP-38 - Zip - Sport Pistol - Green Dot - IMR Green

Slower burning pistol powders:

Unique - Universal - IMR Unequal - Vectan Ba 9 - BE-86 - Power Pistol - N330 - Vectan A1 - Herco - Vectan A0 - WSF - N340 - 800X

No. 5 - Auto Pistol/Lovex D036-03 - True Blue - HS6 - AutoComp - Ultimate Pistol/Lovex D036-07 - CFE Pistol - Silhouette - 3N37

N350 - 3N38 - IMR Blue - W572 - Blue Dot - No. 7 - Major Pistol/Lovex D037-01 - Vectan Ba 7.5 - Pro Reach - Long Shot - 2400

Enforcer - No. 9 - Heavy Pistol/Lovex D037-02 - 4100 - Steel - Norma R123 - N110 - Lil'Gun - W296/H110 - 300-MP - 11FS - Vectan Ba 6.5 - H4227


And brief description/usage of popular pistol powders I have used (scroll down to pictures of powders) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-7#post-10094185

 

[Walkalong]

However, given that a lot of posters, nice as they are, face a budget situation that confines them to entry level tools or agonize over purchasing just 1 pound of powder to play with, they are as a result not going to spend the money for that particular book.

And that is one of the pluses of the internet, people can ask about "what works" for caliber x & bullet weight y, and get good answers that save them time and money.

 

[Dudedog]

The data that come with Lee dies is somewhat limited but should be ok.
I like to check the powder makers web site.
Hodgdon/Win/IMR lists start and MAX loads, Alliants site just lists MAX loads reduce Alliant data 10% for start charges.

A practice/match load that works well for me is the RMR 124gr MPR JHP and 4.4gr of WSF.