Nepalese P1853 speaks out!

[DutchmanDick]

Well, I finally took my IMA P1853 Enfield out to the range today. It's a "banger", not a "hanger"! Its only fault is a bad case of C.H.S. (Can't Hit S**t). I think part of the problem is I may have gotten some bad powder. I ordinarily use American Pioneer Powder in my blackpowder guns and CAS cartridge loads, with excellent results. A.P.P. used to be sold under the "Cleanshot" brand up to about a couple of years ago. The stuff I used, which I just bought this week, is an older jar of "Cleanshot" brand. The inner foam disk seal on the jar wasn't stuck down very tightly, so while it definitely went "Bang", the cast .575 Minie balls I was using (bought from Dixie Gunworks, and lubed with a homebrew mix of beeswax/Crisco mix, then run through a sizer) were hitting the ground in front of a target 100 yards away and stapled to a 5-foot high target frame. The bullets also seemed to be hitting to the left fairly consistently. Mind you, the lowest ("battle") sight setting on the gun is 100 yards. Only one hit the paper the target was fastened to, low and left right at the bottom edge, and that was with the powder charge upped to 90 grains of FFg "Cleanshot" and the sight set to 200 yards. So I may have to get some more powder. Problem is, everyone else I've checked only carries Triple Seven (too potent for a 150-year-old antique, from what I've heard) or Pyrodex (WAY too corrosive!). Monday I'll check with another shop a bit farther away and see what they've got. But at least I know the gun won't blow up on me!

 

[sharps59]

Ok first how did the minnies go down if they fell in on ther own your round is way to small round sould be about .001-.002 under bore. if it went down under just the weight of the ramrod on the first round it should be ok if it gose down under that weight on the 3rd round you may still be to small. If you get it on target and it keyholes the round is to small or the lead is to hard. don't bet on you 100yrd sights being 100yrd sights. my 100yrd sight actualy worked well at 50 yrds w/ 42 of 3ffg w/ a hodgens bullet and 48 w/ a P-H Minnie. 100yrsr was 1/2 way beteen 100 and 200. I actual filed a flate on the step to work at 100.
second use real black powder forget the fake s**t a good target load is around 42 to 48 of 3fffg. or 44 to 50 of 2ffg. pick yor poison I like swiss its a lot cleaner. no need to clean after ea shot no matter what black you use about every 10 or so will do and just use a brush.w/ the barrel facing down.
you may also want to use a bottom scraper at some point..
once you get it on the paper start w/ 42 if you do not have a good group. increase the load by 2gr until the group comes in. if the group starts opening again back it off to were you were then play w/ 1grn up and down. to see what you get.
there is no windage adjustment you will need to fill the notch and cut a new one.:banghead:
if memory serves me right a full milatery charge was 65gr musket powder.

 

[DutchmanDick]

The first ball DID want to just about drop in on its own, and I only used the ramrod to make sure it was seated. I didn't actually HAVE to use the rod until the barrel had gotten some fouling in it. I have some Minies that have not been sized yet, so I will try those after the sized ones are all gone. I will also be buying a Lee 500-grain "old style" Minie mould, so I can cast my own and have better control over the bullet quality (the Dixie bullets aren't all consistent).

As to using blackpowder substitutes, there are no shops in my area, or indeed within 150 miles or more, that carry the real thing, and be da**d if I'm going to pay shipping plus hazmat fees to have it sent to me. Around here the choices are Cleanshot/APP, Triple Seven, or Pyrodex. Triple Seven, I've heard, is way too potent to be safe in an antique gun, and I've had too many front-stuffers rust after being shot with Pyrodex, even after a careful and thorough scrubbing with hot, soapy water and a liberal application of good gun oil. So APP is the only thing I use any more.

 

[Voodoochile]

APP is weaker than Goex BP or any of the other subs, I bought a can of it over last summer for my C&B revolvers & the report, felt recoil & bullet POA was not where it should have been & doing some research confirmed my theories as to why it was that way so I gave the remainder ammolunt to a friend of mine.

Yes Pyrodex is corosive as he** but is quite similar to the velocities of real BP & Balistol really helps in the clean up & preserving the bore when using Pyrodex, IMHO I would use Pyrodex over the APP stuff.

I thought your rifle was a more modern clone "like the todays Italian ones" not a 150 od year old orriginal & you're right 777 would not be a good powder for it.

Like Sharps said & you confirmed it, your bullets are sized oo small for your rifle's bore.

 

[DutchmanDick]

It would also probably help to get the muzzle re-crowned. It's not perfectly even. But hey, it was still thrilling to be able to shoot a real, honest-to-goodness, historical gun that, although itself only recently arrived in this country, is contemporary with identical guns that were used in our Civil War!

 

[4v50 Gary]

Back in the wa-oh (war), sixty grains FF was the standard load for the Enfield cartridge.

 

[DutchmanDick]

60 grains is what I started with. I believe by the end of the war they upped it to 65 grains, just like the British service load. But like I said, i think I just got a bad batch of powder, as I have never had a problem with APP in the past, and this was an older batch of Cleanshot powder and the seal wasn't very secure. If APP/Cleanshot has one big fault, it's very hygroscopic and doesn't have a good shelf-life once the seal is broken unless it's kept in a de-humidified storage area.

 

[sharps59]

mold get your bore size first. then order one. if your gun requires say a 577 get a 580 and size down to what you need. personnely i would stay away from the Lee mold/ if you plan to cast alot. get a rcbs lyman,(NEI or Repine if you like alum)

 

[kentucky bucky]

The first thing to do is find out what the true bore size is. There can be alot of variation among .577 rifles, even in modern reproductions. You can in a pinch shoot round balls with a nice tight patch.

 

[DutchmanDick]

I've always had good luck with Lee moulds and other products. Lyman, Rapine, and all the others have always been a bit too expensive for me, especially when the Lee stuff works just as well for my purposes. Mind you, I do have a few RCBS reloading dies, but those were bought on sale. My Lyman Model 45 lube/sizer was a $20 gun show purchase (and it's OLD!). All my casting stuff is Lee, as are all my reloading presses.

 

[DutchmanDick]

Pictures, as promised











Can anybody read Nepali? I would love to know what the inscriptions on the barrel and triggerguard tangs say. The only things I've managed to translate are the numbers "4 2 / 4", which are on the rear of the triggerguard tang, lockplate, and stock.

 

[DutchmanDick]

Took it out to the range again tonight. This time I got some of the FFg "Jim Shockey's Gold" American Pioneer Powder (at $29 a pound - OUCH!!!). Shot at a 50-yard target. I started with the rest of the Minies I had run through the sizer. Definitely undersized - some of them keyholed, and the first couple just dropped down the bore. Used them all up, then went to the unsized Minies. Between using the unsized Minies and the better powder, it made a BIG difference. The gun is NOT a tack driver by any means. In fact, at 50 yards it shot about 12 inches to the left, and strung the shots vertically from 6" to 12" high. But at least it was consistent, in that respect. I wonder if the shot stringing was due to the sight picture being distorted by all the heat waves coming off the barrel? You could see the air shimmering after a few shots. I'll have to see if it does any better with the muzzle re-crowned, and with some better Minie balls (once I have a mould, and can control the quality myself - the ones from Dixie Gunworks are OK for plinking, but are a bit rough...). But I had a real blast (literally!!!)

 

[Perk]

Y'know, DD: It's beginning to look, more and more, like you've managed to work yourself into a fine-looking shooter. This, despite the all-kinds-of-terrible-crud it might could have been said that you'd end up with.

Can't hardly fault you in having managed to restore a real live working piece of history, for your investment.

Thanks for the photos. Have been waiting to find out what the eventual piece might turn out to look like.

Just love it, when a feller (or, a lady) bucks the apparent odds, to come up with something truly unique and functional.

Again, nice work!

 

[DutchmanDick]

Mystery solved

Well I now know why the gun shoots to the left. The set-screw that holds the sight leaf spring is slightly off-center, so when the sight leaf is in the lowest position (100 yard battle sight), the screw-head comes into the slot in the sight leaf and forces it off to the left. Some careful work with a dremel and a small grinding stone (or a rat-tailed file, if I have one small enough) and I can relieve the slot slightly between the 600 and 700 yard marks. That will allow the leaf to come down closer to center.:banghead:

 

[Steve499]

I'd be curious how it shoots with .570 round balls and a .015 patch. You'd need a more substantial ram rod to try it but that would give you a ball park idea about accuracy. My 1861 Springfield (replica, alas) shoots round balls almost as well as the best minie load I've found, and better than any minie load I tried for a long time.

If they are all like mine, expect to devote some substantial range time to learn what it wants you to feed it. I'm not implying that is a bad thing. On the contrary, enjoy!

 

[bonza]

Dutchman Dick said:

Can anybody read Nepali? I would love to know what the inscriptions on the barrel and triggerguard tangs say. The only things I've managed to translate are the numbers "4 2 / 4", which are on the rear of the triggerguard tang, lockplate, and stock.

I took copies of your photos into work. We have a few Indian people there who can read Hindi, which is what the writing on the Nepalese 'Enfield' is.

As you already know the writing on the lock plate reads '4124' albeit upside down. The lower tang also has the '4124' behind the rear screw, & the writing between the screws is 'R2C 35'. Unfortunately, the picture of the top tang was too fuzzy for them to make out the characters, if you can post a clearer photo I'll try again.....I think that may be more informative then just the numbers we've already found!

 

[Jim Watson]

"be da**d if I'm going to pay shipping plus hazmat fees to have it sent

American Pioneer Powder (at $29 a pound - OUCH!!!)."

You might want to rethink those dogmatic positions and get some of the real stuff:

Product: Goex Powders
5 lb. lot: $18.80 per lb.
10 lb. lot: $14.90 per lb.
25 or 50 lb. lot: $11.85 per lb.
Price includes shipping and hazmat fee.

http://www.powderinc.com/

 

[DutchmanDick]

Problem is, I can't afford to buy more than a pound of powder at a time, so the hazmat fees would be prohibitive. THAT is why I don't order the "real thing". Otherwise, I'd love to try KIK - I've heard that it's pretty clean for black powder, as far as fouling goes.

 

[keith@porthudson]

New to this forum

I to have just purchased the p1853. I think mine will also be a banger.
Does anybody have an extra tang srew, 2 trigger guard screws, and a barrel band keeper? All the screws were there but, the 2 t/guard screws were ruted off and, the tang screw was broken. I know IMA has the parts I need but, they don't do Paypal and I don't want to do the credit card thing on that small of a purchase. Any help would be appreciated. DGW doesn't have it all.
BTW Dutchman I really like your rig. It is super! congrats. If anyone can help feel free to email me.

Thanks,
Keith

 

[alemonkey]

Count me jealous.

 

[DixieTexian]

That is a beautifull rifle.

 

[DutchmanDick]

Kieth, try Lodgewood. That's where I got the rear barrel band spring from for my gun (it was rusted right through the "pin" that goes through the stock). The wood screws all came from the local hardware store (a mom-and-pop place - you'd be surprised at how hard straight-slot STEEL wood screws are to find at the local Ace!). I bought zinc-plated steel ones and burned the zinc off with a torch (DO THIS IN A WELL VENTILATED AREA!!!), then hit them with cold blue.

I would strongly recommend having a gunsmith pull the breech plug and check your bore, or buy a wrench from Dixie Gunworks and do it yourself. On my gun, the rifling at the muzzle looks great but the first 6 inches at the breech are heavily pitted (though not badly enough to affect safety).

I took the barrel to a gunsmith today to have the muzzle crowned. It was worn at the edge to the point of irregularity, which likely isn't helping accuracy any. I told him to take off as little as possible so as not to damage the authenticity (shouldn't need more than 1/16" trimmed off, at the worst). He said it should be done by Monday, so if the weather holds out then NEXT weekend I'll take it back out to the range and see if, between the crowning and the sight repair, it shoots any more accurately. Still waiting on my Lee Minie ball mold, though, so I may have to use the rest of the cast Minies I got from Dixie Gunworks.

 

[DutchmanDick]

Just as an FYI, Robbins and Lawrence in Vermont made Enfields absolutely identical to this one (except for the markings) right before the Civil War. R & L also made some of the early Sharps rifles, as well as a rather unique "pepperbox" pistol that had a fixed barrel cluster, revolving striker (it was percussion fired), and an odd ring-shaped cocking lever with a seperate firing trigger. I recently saw a Robbins & Lawrence Type II Enfield for sale recently for about $2500. I think I got a good deal...