Never again. From my cold, dead hands.

[HK G3]

Oh I'm not saying it's entirely futile.

What I am saying is that it would be almost 90% guaranteed to result in the deaths of anyone participating, and everyone should recognize their odds of survival.

 

[Rachen]

Oh I'm not saying it's entirely futile.

What I am saying is that it would be almost 90% guaranteed to result in the deaths of anyone participating.

Many people would rather die fighting an oppressive regime than live under the imprisonment, humiliation, dehumanization, and the final death while in chains.

When the Chinese Communist Resistance enganged the technologically superior and ruthless Japanese, the 8th Route Army of the First Northeast Front developed many strategies for waging a "People's War", where everyone is united, by heart and by spirit to defeat a heartless and murderous enemy. Even the little shoe-shiner boy down the alley in a Hangzhou street participated, by spying on the enemy and sending information to the Communist network elsewhere.

In May, 1943, the Japanese bombed a strategic Communist held crossroads in Manchuria with over 200 planes. This was the middle of the Hundred Regiments Offensive launched by Field Marshal Zhu De, and the bombings wrecked havoc on the 8th Route Army's supply lines. The CCP had no aircraft, and only a limited number of heavy guns used for anti aircraft use. However, in another sector of the province, another 8th Route Army detachment sent back word to Shenyang that the Japanese planes were being launched from a secret base just outside the city. My Grand Uncle was one of the several field commanders who led the ambush later that night. Two entire 8th Route Army divisions surrounded the blacked-out airfield in pincer columns. While snipers in the forest beyond the airfield blasted away the guards in the towers, hundreds of gray coated Communist soldiers went into the camp and attached bundles of stick grenades to every single door of the airmens' barracks, attached to tripwires. Grenades were also attached to the planes. When a flare was shot into the sky several minutes later, the 8th Route Army opened fire with hundreds of mortars and light artillery pieces.

When the terrified Japanese were wakened from their sleep by the sudden attack and stumbled out of their barracks, the explosions from the mines blew them all to bits. These explosions, all connected by tripwires, triggered the other mines to explode, effectively destroying every single plane on that particulart airfield. One brigade of Japanese Imperial Army and the IMPERIAL GUARD DIVISION (WEI JUN), an army composed of Chinese traitors managed to escape the carnage in the airfield, but little to their knowledge, another division of the 8th Route Army lay in wait just outside, stationed all over the main road. When the enemy appeared, hundreds of grenades were hurled from all directions, showering the road with explosions and clouds of rocks, gravel, blood and dismembered bodies. From the darkness came thousands of rounds of deadly accurate rifle fire, zipping through the air like lightning.

Over all, the 8th Route Army destroyed 160 Japanese planes, captured over 40 tanks, and destroyed 80 more, over 6000 enemy soldiers, plus 2000 Imperial Guards, were killed. The 8th Route Army only suffered 200 casualties.

Field Marshal Zhu De said that this operation was perhaps the most devastating and effective of the entire Hundred Regiments Offensive, and also stated that without the help of hundreds of thousands of the local peasants and common people, all united against the Imperialist Japanese, this attack would not have been possible.

This is the example of a "people's war". When every single civilian participates. Every single 8th Route Army soldier that marches into combat on the battlefield is supported by many men, women, and children behind the lines who are not combatants, but help the 8th Route Army in many ways, such as providing medical care to wounded soldiers, cooking rice, mending and stitching new uniforms, building mines and grenades, and most importantly, reporting all enemy actions to the Communist high command whenever they appear. The civilians are the eyes and ears of the 8th Route Army. And when the War ended in 1945, and the newly incorporated People's Liberation Army were beginning to fight the Nationalists again, these millions of citizens were also the eyes and ears of the new Republic.

 

[gallo]

I don't think the Japanese had GPS guided technology.

 

[yokel]

Bad history leads to bad policy.

In 1775, Great Britain was the most powerful empire in the entire world. Dozens of nations lie under the shadow of the Redcoats, the most elite fighting force on the globe. However, in two certain small towns called Lexington and Concorde, Massachusetts, several certain little "incidents" sent waves of defiance and courage throughout the world.

The French entered the war in 1778, and assisted in the victory of the Americans seeking independence from Britain (realized in the 1783 Treaty of Paris).

Vo Nguyen Giap fought against both the French and the United States, and won his peoples' freedom.

During the 1968 Tet offensive, Viet Cong guerrillas in the South were devastated. North Vietnam was forced to try a conventional invasion, which bombing by the United States was able to stop during the 1972 Easter offensive.

If the Democratic Congress had not tied the hands of Presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford, further air attacks might have halted or at least slowed the North Vietnamese offensives that eventually toppled South Vietnam in 1975.


That a modern military power can be resisted by guerilla fighters bearing only small arms, i.e. rifles, shotguns, carbines, and handguns is a very dangerous misconception.

 

[Rachen]

That a modern military power can be resisted by guerilla fighters bearing only small arms, i.e. rifles, shotguns, carbines, and handguns is a very dangerous misconception.

Please read my above post regarding the 8th Route Army.

My grand uncle was a field commander during one of Field Marshal Zhu De's greatest campaigns against the Japanese.

"BALU JUN WANSEI! ZHONGGUO JIEFANGJUN WANSEI!!"

 

[Rachen]

I don't think the Japanese had GPS guided technology.

Either way, the Japanese had tracking methods of their own, and it was very effective for their day. However, one of the tactics described in the 8th Route Army Field Operations Handbook is called "blanket" tactics.

That way, enemy air operations would not be able to keep track of their opponents advance towards their bases. Blanketing, means instead of having soldiers advance in columns on the road, a perfect target for aerial opposition, troops advance like a mass of feelers across the land, independantly, or in groups under cover of brush and very heavy foliage camoflage. The 8th Route Army revised the Red Army's original Field Operations Manual in 1937 because they knew that they were going against an enemy that was as ruthless as ever, and equipped with superior heavy weaponry.

 

[Rachen]

And the reason why the anti gun elitis are so infatuated with brainwashing the public to hate guns, especially the children in schools, is because they want to turn the entire population in their favor. They are, no doubt aware of the strategies that the Communists used to win the heart of China, and no doubt, they are aware that political power lies in the people, and the only way they can establish any foothold in a traditionally conservative nation is to brainwash the people to favor THEIR propaganda.

Therefore, they use terms to fool the masses and blanket them with a false sense of security and "civil rights", such as "liberalism", "progressivism", the "new left", and all the terms associated with the liberal movement.

 

[HK G3]

The thing is, these kinds of attacks all ignore the realities of modern day communications and reconnaissance equipment in the military. Night-vision sentrys would have spotted the gray coated CCP members sneaking into the base, and made short work of them as the call to arms was sounded before they even made it near the base. Predator drones would have spotted all the soldiers waiting in the hills, and an AC-130 would be called to the area to neutralize the strong enemy presence. The mission would have been a complete disaster.

This is not to say that the accomplishments of the Davids vs. The Goliaths of the world throughout history should be ignored. Indeed, I had the honor of speaking with one of my relatives who served in the French Resistance, and had invented some particularly nasty uses for piano wire vs. Nazis on motorcycles. But their success in acquiring the arms of the enemy always revolved around their capacity to escape through a system of routes that the enemy just simply didn't know existed. It was the ability to attack, plunder, and escape that made them effective up until the signal to assault the German supply lines full-scale was given as the Allies assaulted the beaches. They were then able to play a crucial role in aiding the allied assault. But without the Allies, the future would have been grim.

Today, the critical thing is how the element of surprise and knowledge of the terrain is severely reduced - and that's really the most important thing resistance fighters have on their side.

Take Iraq - their most devastating tactic is the use of suicide bombs. There's no way in hell they'd be able to actually acquire any US military property or successfully ambush a base. As a result, any fighting against us is suicidal, and has a minimal impact in terms of making us lose the war. If it weren't for the economic impact of the war, most ppl wouldn't care.

Finally, any corrupt, modern govt will wage an effective PR campaign to convert a large subset of the population, so you have to watch out for your fellow citizens turning on you as well in a modern-era struggle against a corrupt govt. Divide and conquer is a strategy that everyone uses, and with modern communications, it's highly effective.

 

[yokel]

The Soviet Union provided limited aid to the Communist Party of China in the 1940s. Captured WWII era Japanese arms depots provided the PLA with the howitzers, heavy mortars, anti-aircraft artilleries, anti-tank guns, mountain guns, and cannons needed to prosecute offensive operations against the Nationalists.

 

[Rachen]

The thing is, these kinds of attacks all ignore the realities of modern day communications and reconnaissance equipment in the military. Night-vision sentrys would have spotted the gray coated CCP members sneaking into the base, and made short work of them as the call to arms was sounded before they even made it near the base. Predator drones would have spotted all the soldiers waiting in the hills, and an AC-130 would be called to the area to neutralize the strong enemy presence. The mission would have been a complete disaster.

Field Marshal Zhu De said that without the help of so much loyal local citizenry, the attack would have failed utterly. When the 139th Ground Assault Division, the one Grand Uncle commanded, and the 120th Division advanced, they were informed every single kilometer of the way by locals, who told them of the nearest, and safest routes. And in the heavy Northeastern brush country, Zhu De had every single soldier carrying foliage and twigs intertwined and weaved into great sheets across their backs, and additional foliage on their caps.

But as Zhu De said, it was a victory for the patriots and citizens who participated with such effort during this campaign. Many of the civilians were also active combatants, ambushing enemy troops with long range sniper fire, planting mines, etc... Several weeks before this attack, a detachment of Japanese was sitting in a cabin in Shenyang, having a loud, raucous, and drunken night, when a bunch of local youth arrived. Several grenades were hurled through the windows of the cabin, and when the explosions ended, over 16 soldiers lay dead. When the local Imperial Guard regiment arrived to survey the scene, they also found that the soldiers' rifles, handguns, and ammunition were also missing, and some had their boots taken too.

Attacks like these were so frequent that the Japanese became extremely paranoid, and the massacre of entire villages were very common wherever the Occupation army marched. However, these atrocities only strengthened the peoples' will to fight.

 

[Zoogster]

A modern army owns the night. You hear phrases about that used by the US military and it is true.
Night vision, thermal vision of various types like FLIR etc
There is expensive cumbersome ways to somewhat defeat it with high technology suits, but guerrillas won't have them.

Positions can be created that defeat it, but if not mobile it just means conventional intelligence will locate it and designate it a target.

Vehicles can't hide from radar, and things that jam radar can be attacked by locking onto the jamming source.

Vehicles designed to passively resist radar would look very funky and not blend in at all.


During the day the heat being radiated from the ground makes thermal vision and FLIR less effective because the contrasts are not as clear or extreme.
Everyone can see equaly and the advantage of knowing who is where is not as significantly shifted towards the powerful military force.
Cover of darkness no longer exists for insurgents, they are better off fighting in the daytime.

If the Nazis had existed today with modern technology most resistance would have been squashed in an extremely organized society where much of the population was in favor of them.
Checkpoints, cameras, and units on call to pounce on any trouble spots.
Most of keeping the population in check is done with paramilitary police and surveillance, though heavier military forces can be called in when necessary.

The Nazis were not seen by most as the evil they are today, they were elected by the people, and many of thier early conquests were in fact parts of thier old nation taken from them after World War 1 and divided up.
So they were seen as the German people taking back thier old strength, culture and power in the world.
They were funding archeology and historical research all over the world, and thier government of National Socialism (NAZI was a term of opponents) was new and even had a lot of support in the United States at the time prior to the war (and still does, most of the Democratic Party beliefs are similar to those of the national socialists, as are most popular parties in Europe now). Socialism was new at the time, and national socialism was a mix of the old of capitalism combined with some of the 'benefits' of socialism without being communist, and just a bit more patriotic. Of course we also now associate all the evils done by the Nazis with anything related to them, but my point is they operated on widely supported principles.
Little different as I said from many popular parties today, like our own Democratic party, or the British Labor Party, for example.

Rumors of evil things they were doing, things like extermination camps etc were considered just that, rumors. They were seen as one of the most advanced and enlightened governments of the time.
Until the allies decided to band together and stop thier expansion they were seen as good guys around the world.
There literaly was not a more advanced nation at the time, or a more formidable military force.
They were to the world what the United States is today.
So keep perspective, it was not some looming monster all recognized.

All the things we associate with them today were only known to thier victims and a limited amount of special soldiers at the time. To most others they were rumors, conspiracy theories. In fact death camps were not technicaly created as death camps until after the Final Solution was created. They were concentration camps or what we would call prisons, where people were worked as free profitable labor, much like today's private prisons.
Many would die from the poor conditions, but since they were just prisoners, seen as criminals by most of society few were in a hurry to pressure the government to improve the conditions.

 

[Rachen]

A modern army may own the night, but the fact that one may have superior technology doesn't mean that the "other side" won't be able to obtain them. That is one of the "unintended consequences", if anyone decides to commit evil in this day and age.

An old Chinese saying: "Zhi bao buliao huo".

It is the original definition and explanation of "unintended consequences".

It means "Paper cannot contain fire". It means that no matter how much paper you use in an attempt to hide a fire, it won't work, it will burn out of the paper and still be there for people to see. No matter what one side does, the weapons it may have, the evils it commit and desires to hide, the secrets it may hold, it just cannot be limited to the knowledge of "one side only". It's technology might eventually change hands, and it's secrets it may desire to hide broadcasted for the rest of the world to see.

 

[yokel]

Until and unless our present day poor, insincere, and insulting imitation of a Second Amendment is cast off, the idea of widespread armed rebellion in the United States is so far beyond the pale as to be laughable.

 

[Rachen]

Until and unless our present day poor, insincere, and insulting imitation of a Second Amendment is cast off, the idea of widespread armed rebellion in the United States is so far beyond the pale as to be laughable.

So you are actually against the Second Amendment?

This is becoming quite strange.

Nobody is advocating armed resistance. However, threads dealing with how to deal with potential fascist resurgencies are important to the defense of our civil liberties. I remember you referring to "online braggadacios" on a previous thread. Protection of civil liberties is what the 2nd Amendment is all about. It isn't about hunting, or competitions, or clay busting, although these are just some aspects of the shooting sports.

 

[amprecon]

Try that today against any mosque and witness the global outrage that would surely exist.
But destroy a Christian Church or Jewish Synagogue, no problem, they deserved it.
The hypocracy is incredulous.
Choose your sides carefully.

 

[yokel]

So you are actually against the Second Amendment?

I'm firmly against a Second Amendment that does not encompass widespread private ownership of heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, man-portable anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns and missile launchers, recoilless rifles, and mortars.

As it stands now, all this assurance about being prepared tomorrow to resist tyranny and usurption, as well as invasion is just a blend of tough talk and wishful thinking in my estimation.

 

[jaak]

while i am of prussian decent, i support the jews 100%. i hate hitler, and anyone that shares that philosophy. the jews never messed with anyone. people need to stop messing with them.

 

[Rachen]

As it stands now, all this discussion about being prepared tomorrow to resist tyranny and usurption, as well as invasion is just a blend of tough talk and wishful thinking in my estimation.

If you were living in Germany in 1931, I guess talk about defense is anything but so called "tough talk".

There are many people who said that the [Holocaust] would never happen today anymore. This is really faulty thinking. After all, preventing fascism from rising again means neverending education, as well as preservation of a strong culture of positive firearms ownership, and also the teaching of courage and defiance when faced with negativity.

Talking about defending liberty and constitutional rights is what THR is all about. After all, what does the THR logo comprise of? The Star Spangled Banner: The flag that represents liberty, of thirteen colonies who defied the orders of a tyrannical empire. THAT is what THR is all about. After all, there are extremists such as NY Times who will go at any length to strip Americans of their rights.

 

[Just Jim]

I understand now how it will happen again, it is self fulfilling by your nature.

Peace be with you.

jj

 

[Zoogster]

My prior post was to demonstrate that while in hindsight we recognize the German government was involved in horrible things, at the time that was not so obvious to the average person.

We demonize the Nazis so much today that most are left with the impression that they would have recognized them for what they were at the time. That is very misleading, and is why people don't think such things can happen today. They are under the impression they would see it for what it was, know all the evils being commited on distant fronts (most of the worst Nazi acts were actualy done in foriegn controlled lands like Poland, not near Berlin) and not tolerate it.
The truth was most people did not see things as they were at the time.

Most people today would be even less inclined to see such things being done. They would care more about American Idol, what was in fashion, family, the economy and thier budget.
In fact I bet if you asked most Americans what nations we officialy have soldiers stationed in they would not even know. Most Americans don't even know how the soldiers under the control of people they elect are used, where they are used, etc
If we created our own version of the SS seperate from regular troops, and had them commit various attrocities, interogations and exterminations abroad nobody would even notice. They would not even have to officialy be part of the military, just a private security contracting force. Just like we already use.
There would be rumors heard by those that paid attention, but they would be rebuked and dismissed, mere conspiracies joining the many others where fact and fiction swirl together, and all are equaly discredited.
After all, fake attrocities are claimed by our enemies already on a regular basis.

On the home front they would not operate, it would just be something similar to the Gestapo, probably a branch of something like Homeland Security. They would have the ability to deal with any 'domestic terrorists' outside of the spotlight or public attention.

Do you really think most would even notice if such things were put in place as long as most of thier lives continued as normal?
Most of those that did notice would be the victims that could never speak out. After all they would be terrorists and they might hide some terrorist message in any public message. So it would be for our safety to never hear from them.

 

[HK G3]

If we created our own version of the SS seperate from regular troops, and had them commit various attrocities, interogations and exterminations abroad nobody would even notice.

We already have this. They're called Blackwater, and they already helped steal a bunch of US citizens' guns and massacre civilians.

/half-kidding...

Part of the problem in deciding when a govt is corrupt is the fact that they're never going to just come on TV one day, and say, "The Bill of Rights is dead, long live the Clone of Hitler, our new Emperor!" It's a gradual process, and it's very easy to boil a frog alive if you turn the heat up slowly so it never realizes it's dying. Throw a frog in a pot of boiling water, and it'll jump right out. If tyranny ever does come, it'll come waving the flag, and claiming to believe in what we believe in, all while stamping out freedoms gradually with various "well-meaning" excuses to do so.

With Germany for example, you had the invasion of Poland being justified as self-defense due to an assault on a radio tower. Then you had to round-up all the enemies of the state who sought to give information, aid, and comfort to the enemy. We know what we know now because they lost the war. As Hitler said, "History is written by the victor." Should the unspeakable have happened, and the Nazis prevailed in WWII, most of us wouldn't know anything about what was really going on.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Part of the problem in deciding when a govt is corrupt is the fact that they're never going to just come on TV one day, and say, "The Bill of Rights is dead, long live the Clone of Hitler, our new Emperor!" It's a gradual process, and it's very easy to boil a frog alive if you turn the heat up slowly so it never realizes it's dying. Throw a frog in a pot of boiling water, and it'll jump right out. If tyranny ever does come, it'll come waving the flag, and claiming to believe in what we believe in, all while stamping out freedoms gradually with various "well-meaning" excuses to do so.

Smart guy. +1.

 

[esq_stu]

MOT here. Secretary, newly formed Detroit Jewish Cigar and Shooting Club. http://cigar.meetup.com/51/

I'm drafting the Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws now. The purpose is to educate and overcome the resistance to guns and shooting in the Jewish community.

 

[Oleg Volk]

Finally, any corrupt, modern govt will wage an effective PR campaign to convert a large subset of the population, so you have to watch out for your fellow citizens turning on you as well in a modern-era struggle against a corrupt govt. Divide and conquer is a strategy that everyone uses, and with modern communications, it's highly effective.

True...but their ability is limited also. Any person they imprison or kill has a web of family and friends who resent that indefinitely. If your sibling or parent or child is killed by your own government, chances are you would forever try to ambush anyone connected to to its judicial, enforcement or administrative organizations.