NEVER say anything to the police

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benbernanke

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To all my brothers who own arms of any kind, Im going to grind these rules into your head.

#1. Never say anything to the police without your attorney present. If you just shot someone for any reason, tell the police you would like to speak to your attorney first before you start answering their questions. The justice system are good at sneaking in questions that will trip you up so its important from the first minute not to answer their questions.

#2. Never consent to searches. If the police start searching you, your property, etc. then tell them calmly, but firmly and loud enough for their recorders to pick it up "I do not consent to any searches."

#3. Do not just get any attorney or a "good attorney". Take your time and find the best attorney. If you have just shot someone, then the justice system will come at you full force no matter how justified it seemed at the time. It is important to hire someone with a proven track record and is recognized as being the best.

Before I entertain any replies to this thread, let me bring up a prime example. Harold Fish.

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/

Harold thought the shooting was justified and cooperated with the police telling them exactly what happened. Then he is all of a sudden slapped with these trumped up charges and found guilty. If Harold had simply told the police from the first minute he wanted to only speak through his attorney, then this would have never happened.

Personally, I make it a practice of never answering an officer's questions. If I am pulled over for a traffic stop, I simply say to the officer that I am going to remain silent. If he writes me a ticket then so be it, but he will not have my words to use against me later on should it be contested.

I have vowed an oath of silence never to talk to the police without an attorney present. I will not break that oath ever.
 
most of what you say is good but.....

not saying the basics will get you treated as the bad guy until the cops can get carnack the great to tell them what happened.

a search incident to arrest does not require your consent.

playing it smart also means not playing it stupid either. there is a lot more you need to include in an after shooting.
 
I'll quote Kleanbore from his first post in that thread:

Kleanbore said:
Study your 5th Amendment Constitutional Right. Keep you mouth shut and take your 5th Amendment Right at first contact with LEO.
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That's good advice--unless you have in fact shot someone and will be mounting an affirmative defense to establish that the act was justified.

Under that circumstance, you will be necessarily admitting to having done the shooting anyway, and it will be up to you to present evidence supporting your claim of self-defense. If supportive evidence and/or witnesses are not gathered at the scene, they may disappear forever, and your defense would be impaired--perhaps to the extent that it would fail.

You want the investigation to get off on the right foot and you want to make sure that the police identify and secure evidence and witnesses beneficial to you at the scene and at the time. Beyond that, you do not want to make a detailed statement of any kind.

The best explanation of this that I have seen is set forth in Lessons from Armed America, by Mark Walters and Kathy Jackson:

http://www.amazon.com/Lessons-Armed-America-Mark-Walters/dp/0982248768/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261420076&sr=1-1

This will tell you to be the first to call and what to say and do and why. It should be evident why "taking the Fifth" at the scene of a self defense shooting could result in arrest, charges and possible conviction even if the act was completely justified under the law.

Generally speaking, depending on the jurisdiction and the circumstances, substantiating the justification of the shooting of someone in your house may be a easier to to do than would be the case for a shooting on the street.
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I can see the value in simple short statements such as: This is my license. I own this house. I own that firearm. I dont know that man. He attacked me. Those people witnessed the incident. That knife on the ground belonged to that man. I would like to sign a complaint.

The reality is the police are going to lock down and comb thoroughly through the scene. An experienced detective is going to walk through the scene. That knife on the ground will not be missed.

Statements of any kind usually lead to followup questions by the officers. It is a slippery slope even making simple statements. I would tell the police that I will make simple statements to them in regards to evidence, witness identification, etc, but decline making a detailed statement until an attorney is present.

In the vast majority of shooting incidents, the words of the shooter are oftentimes used against them. Look at Harold Fish, my prime example. He kept repeating the story to the police and the details kept changing a little bit. Of course, if you ask me to repeat the same story over the course of several months then details will change. No one is going to remember exactly how it happened and the story will change over time.

I had an encounter with the police once. I made a turn and the officer stopped me for failing to yield. I made it a point not to say anything during the traffic stop. I contested the ticket and the officer testified that I made statements that I absolutely know I did not make. So another important thing is to record the encounters if you can.
 
Posted by benbernanke: I can see the value in simple short statements such as: This is my license. I own this house. I own that firearm. I dont know that man. He attacked me. Those people witnessed the incident. That knife on the ground belonged to that man. I would like to sign a complaint.
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Good.

The reality is the police are going to lock down and comb thoroughly through the scene. An experienced detective is going to walk through the scene.
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True. The problem is that it is unlikely that they will be looking for anything indicative of a self defense incident unless you say something.

That knife on the ground will not be missed.
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But the one that went trough the drain grate may be long gone by the time they look; the one under the car may be retrieved by the attacker's accomplice an hour after the scene has been combed and photographed and re-opened; the other guy's fired case may have been blown toward a drain or gotten stuck in the tread of a boot.

I would tell the police that I will make simple statements to them in regards to evidence, witness identification, etc, but decline making a detailed statement until an attorney is present.
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That is the "school solution" here.
 
My usual caveat: I am an attorney, but I am not your attorney. If you need honest-to-goodness legal advice, go find a lawyer licensed in your jurisdiction, and get some face time with him or her.

The post linked by Kleanbore contains some very, very good advice. For garden-variety criminal defendant, it makes perfect sense for him to keep his mouth shut. In fact, when I was in private practice, my business cards had a series of statements on the back, one of which was "I do not care to make a statement of any kind." My "frequent fliers" were instructed to hand police officers: (1) DL; (2) registration; (3) proof of insurance; and (4) my business card.

SD shootings are no "garden variety," though. A SD shooter needs, as Kleanbore put it, "to get the investigation off on the right foot," and the shooter is going to have to admit to intentionally shooting the BG, anyway.

I could go on and on, but I doubt I could phrase it any better than Kleanbore and Frank Ettin (in the linked post) already have.
 
"I had an encounter with the police once."

Sigh.

Are you related to the head of the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke? Or are you the famous Mr. Bernanke himself?
 
I believe that asking for a Med.check is a wise thing to. After an altercation you are feeling all kinds of emotion! You will not be able to assess every thing right. After a altercation a few years ago with a few twekers, I did not even know that I was injured! My daughter finally got my attention to it by then I had lost a good amount of blood. I sat down and let her put a pressure bandage on it. I didn't feel anything &passed out! Woke up in ER! Not bad just got cut on leg by chain saw! Remember keep distance! Trying to pull wife out of danger, broke rules &payed for it! Twekers went to prison. At least let medic check you out! Note didn't have to shoot any one, so I didn't.
 
Not bad just got cut on leg by chain saw! Remember keep distance! Trying to pull wife out of danger, broke rules &payed for it! Twekers went to prison. At least let medic check you out! Note didn't have to shoot any one, so I didn't.
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Just exactly WOULD have required you to shoot, since being attacked with a chainsaw didn't????:what:
 
this has been beat to death.

A basic statement like Mr Ayoob recommends is in order.

Then proclaim how upset you are and shut up.
 
As time & things get distorted in a conflict, I didn't see the tweker w/ chainsaw until he popped up! After he hit me on leg ( which I didn't feel! ) .He turned &ran! We do not shoot people in back,as you WILL GO TO JAIL! Thought about it! But not worth it!
 
Life lesson! 1.Unexpected! 2.Never close distance w / threat! (Unless no choice! ).3 Try to keep emotion under control! ( Very hard to do! ).I have a nice scar to help remind me! 4.Tunnel vision can sneek up fast, just like tweker! I was very lucky not to be hurt more &I did not have to shoot anyone!
 
By the way lots of people around. Police had whole story by the time I woke up in ER. Twekers went to jail. Police kept my handgun until next day, Then gave it back. I did have to give statement. But was able to have Atty. there.
 
Go to Jail. Go Directly to Jail. Do Not Pass Go. Do Not Collect $200.
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And if you say the wrong thing, expect a protracted stay.

"Anything you say can and will be used against you."
 
Whenever I hear, "Never talk to the police. Tell them you want your attorney." I always wonder how I'm supposed to tell them I want the attorney without talking to them.
 
Of course, the fact that you have a ready-made card with your attorney's number indicates that you expect to have trouble with the law and THAT can and will be used against you in court.
 
I wanted to add the following to this thread:

- I havent heard of any case where a person was convicted on what they did not say, however, I have heard of many cases where a person is convicted on what they did say.

- The legal experts in this forum are experienced and knowledgeable about these issues, but they will not be there to instruct you when it comes time.

- Saying anything is a "slippery slope". Anything you say will be followed up with additional questions from the officers which you might feel obligated to answer.

- The prosecutor does not get convictions based upon what they suspect. They only get convictions based on the evidence. So if you say nothing, sure, they are going to "suspect". They can "suspect" all day long like they suspected with John Edwards, but they wont gain a conviction on what they think they know. They will gain a conviction based on your statements, however. The reality is that any incident involving a shooting is going to be thoroughly investigated no matter if you give a statement or not. Every witness is going to be talked to. Every inch of that crime scene will be gone over thoroughly by multiple officers and detectives. They will even take lots of pictures. Those guys will not miss anything.

- Arrests are only made as a result of "probable cause". Statements can be used as "probable cause". They cannot make an arrest because they suspect or think you did it. They can only make an arrest based on the facts developed into "probable cause". If they arrest you without cause then the arrest gets thrown out.
 
benbernanke said:
...The prosecutor does not get convictions based upon what they suspect. They only get convictions based on the evidence. So if you say nothing, sure, they are going to "suspect". They can "suspect" all day long like they suspected with John Edwards, but they wont gain a conviction on what they think they know. They will gain a conviction based on your statements, however....Arrests are only made as a result of "probable cause". Statements can be used as "probable cause". They cannot make an arrest because they suspect or think you did it...
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Clearly you have no understanding at all about self defense law.

You have just shot someone in what you claim to have been self defense. What are you going to do? Are you going to leave the scene? Or are you going to report the incident? If you report the incident, the police will arrive to find you standing in proximity to a person who has just been shot and you with or near a gun that has just been fired. Do you imagine that the police will not have probable cause to detain for investigation.

And if you intend to claim self defense, you will have to admit that you intentionally shot someone. Here's how I laid it out in the post Kleanbore linked to:
Keeping Silent Isn't the Best Idea in a Self Defense Matter

But Don't Say Too Much.

Call 911. Be the first to report the incident and do so immediately. If you don't report it, or if there's a long delay, you will appear to have a guilty conscience.

Then, having taken LFI-I with Massad Ayoob, spending time with him and helping with a class of his in Sierra Vista, AZ not too long ago, I'll go along with his recommendation for when the police arrive.

[1] While one has a right to remain silent, clamming up is what the bad guys do. Following a self defense incident, you'll want to act like one of the good guys. You also won't want the investigating officers to miss any evidence or possible witnesses. What if the responding officers miss your assailant's knife that you saw fall down the storm drain? What if they don't know about the guy you saw pick up your assailant's gun and walk off with it?

[2] At the same time, you don't want to say too much. You will most likely be rattled. You will also most likely be suffering from various well known stress induced distortions of perception.

[3] So Massad Ayoob recommends:

  • Saying something like, "That person (or those people) attacked me." You are thus immediately identifying yourself as the victim. It also helps get the investigation off on the right track.
  • Saying something like, "I will sign a complaint." You are thus immediately identifying the other guys(s) as the criminal(s).
  • Pointing out possible evidence, especially evidence that may not be immediate apparent. You don't want any such evidence to be missed.
  • Pointing out possible witnesses before they vanish.
  • Then saying something like, "I'm not going to say anything more right now. You'll have my full cooperation in 24 hours, after I've talked with my lawyer."

Pleading Self Defense is Very Different From the Common Lines of Defense to a Criminal Charge.

A lot of folks point to the "Don't Talk to the Police" video that is making the rounds on gun boards. But it is about a police contact in general. It works fine when you aren't claiming self defense, and it's up to the State to prove your guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But things work differently if you are pleading self defense.

Basically --

[1] The prosecutor must prove the elements of the underlying crime beyond a reasonable doubt -- basically that you intentionally shot the guy. But if you are pleading self defense, you will have admitted that, so we go to step 2.

[2] Now you must present evidence from which the trier of fact could infer that your conduct met the applicable legal standard justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. Depending on the State, you may not have to prove it, i. e., you may not have to convince the jury. But you will have to at least present a prima facie case, i. e., sufficient evidence which, if true, establishes that you have satisfied all legal elements necessary to justify your conduct.

[3] Now it's the prosecutor's burden to attack your claim and convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that you did not act in justified self defense.

Let's go through that again.

In an ordinary criminal prosecution, the defendant doesn't have to say anything. He doesn't have to present any evidence. The entire burden falls on the prosecution. The prosecution has to prove all the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

If the crime you're charged with is, for example, manslaughter, the prosecution must prove that you were there, you fired the gun, you intended to fire the gun (or were reckless), and the guy you shot died. In the typical manslaughter prosecution, the defendant might by way of his defense try to plant a seed that you weren't there (alibi defense), or that someone else might have fired the gun, or that it was an accident. In each case the defendant doesn't have to actually prove his defense. He merely has to create a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors.

So in such cases, it probably doesn't pay for you to say anything to the police, at least early on. Let them do the work of trying to amass evidence to prove the case against you. There's no reason for you to help.

But if you are going to be claiming self defense, you will wind up admitting all the elements of what would, absent legal justification, constitute a crime. You will necessarily admit that you were there, that you fired the gun, and that you intended to shoot the decedent. Your defense is that your use of lethal force in self defense satisfied the applicable legal standard and that, therefore, it was justified.

So now you would have to affirmatively present evidence from which the trier of fact could infer that your conduct met the applicable legal standard justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. In some jurisdictions, you may not have to prove it, i. e., you don't have to convince the jury. But you will at least have to present a prima facie case, i. e., sufficient evidence which, if true, establishes that you have satisfied all legal elements necessary to justify your conduct.

Then it will be the prosecutor's burden to attack your claim and convince the jury (in some jurisdictions, he will have to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt) that you did not act in justified self defense. And even if you didn't have to prove self defense (only present a prima facie case), the more convincing your story, and your evidence, is, the harder it will be for the prosecutor to meet his rebuttal burden.
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