Must see video - 5th Amendment Lecture - Don't Talk to Police
- Thread starter SKILCZ
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i agree with most of the video but i have found with traffic violations its almost always better to tell the truth and be polite.the last three times i have been pulled over i have been let go with a warning or lesser violation(being guilty all three times)because i didn't waste his/her time with b.s.police hear crap and take verbal abuse often,and are usually relieved by someone not lying right to their face.cop,"sir ,do you know why i pulled you over?"me,"uh,speeding?"cop,"correct.do you know how fast you were going?"me."no,but im pretty sure i was exceeding the speed limit."i.e. hauling a$$...your results may vary.
First, I have to talk to police to report a crime, don't I? I talked to the cops when my car was stolen, NYPD no less, and survived. Talked to Chicago police when my friend was pulled in with a U-turn, and lived through the experience.
This seems good advice for people who are in fact committing crimes when pulled over. It is what any defense attorney would immediately recommend.
But if I am pooled over for speeding I think it would be the height of silliness to refuse to say a word. Maybe ten times in my life I have been pulled over for traffic violations and I talked to the cops who pulled me over in a friendly, or at least respectful way, and sometimes I got a ticket (deserved in all cases) and sometimes I didn't.
God forbid, in dealing with police after a self defense encounter, again, I would try to avoid babbling-but I think I would try to make some sort of short self defense related statment. "He was attacking me/pointed a gun at me and I was forced to defend myself. I am so shook up I can't talk any more" Just clamming up is going to make you look suspicious to me. Hopefully I will never run into such situation, I admit it could be very tough.
This seems good advice for people who are in fact committing crimes when pulled over. It is what any defense attorney would immediately recommend.
But if I am pooled over for speeding I think it would be the height of silliness to refuse to say a word. Maybe ten times in my life I have been pulled over for traffic violations and I talked to the cops who pulled me over in a friendly, or at least respectful
way, and sometimes I got a ticket (deserved in all cases) and sometimes I didn't.God forbid, in dealing with police after a self defense encounter, again, I would try to avoid babbling-but I think I would try to make some sort of short self defense related statment. "He was attacking me/pointed a gun at me and I was forced to defend myself. I am so shook up I can't talk any more" Just clamming up is going to make you look suspicious to me. Hopefully I will never run into such situation, I admit it could be very tough.
divemedic
Member
Exactly- but why do you think the cop is asking those questions? Is he being your friend? Or could it be that he is trying to make things easier on himself with your statements? If you take the ticket to court, he will say "Your honor, when I pulled him over, he even admitted to speeding."
Now traffic tickets are one thing, as the most the usually cost is a relatively small fine.
The assumption that things will go easier on them if they cooperate is patently false. It assumes two things:
1 That the person is convicted.
2 Only then does the fact that the person cooperated come into play.
If you watch the video, the attorney says that you have nothing to gain by speaking to the cops before you talk to your attorney. After you talk to your attorney, then you can cooperate (with the attorney's supervision/advice)
Now traffic tickets are one thing, as the most the usually cost is a relatively small fine.
The assumption that things will go easier on them if they cooperate is patently false. It assumes two things:
1 That the person is convicted.
2 Only then does the fact that the person cooperated come into play.
If you watch the video, the attorney says that you have nothing to gain by speaking to the cops before you talk to your attorney. After you talk to your attorney, then you can cooperate (with the attorney's supervision/advice)
DigitalWarrior
Member
Master of Malice,
Please remember that Martha Stewart did not go to prison for insider trading. She went to prison because she did not use a lawyer. She was caught not telling the truth to federal cops.
If a cop asks me what I had for breakfast, I will refuse to answer without representation because If I answer "Eggs", and it is later determined that I had "bacon and eggs", I might be victimized.
I am not a lawyer, I am not sure of what the laws say about that particular. I do know that in an age and place where a man might have been imprisoned for a malfunctioning rifle, where a woman is imprisoned for lying to investigators, where a man can be jailed for holding a sign outside a free speech zone, where I might have my property confiscated if an acquaintance possesses an illegal intoxicant without my knowledge, where my right to defend myself might result in charges, and where there are 40,000 laws I have never heard of, I could do worse than hire the most expensive lawyer I can afford.
I will not speak, I will not consent, and I will not resist.
Please remember that Martha Stewart did not go to prison for insider trading. She went to prison because she did not use a lawyer. She was caught not telling the truth to federal cops.
If a cop asks me what I had for breakfast, I will refuse to answer without representation because If I answer "Eggs", and it is later determined that I had "bacon and eggs", I might be victimized.
I am not a lawyer, I am not sure of what the laws say about that particular. I do know that in an age and place where a man might have been imprisoned for a malfunctioning rifle, where a woman is imprisoned for lying to investigators, where a man can be jailed for holding a sign outside a free speech zone, where I might have my property confiscated if an acquaintance possesses an illegal intoxicant without my knowledge, where my right to defend myself might result in charges, and where there are 40,000 laws I have never heard of, I could do worse than hire the most expensive lawyer I can afford.
I will not speak, I will not consent, and I will not resist.
There is only one problem for those who are accused of a crime, and the concept of cooperating with LEOs to get a deal: police are allowed to lie to solve a crime.
Even, or especially, an accused criminal has the right to due process, etc. In the sequence of events, it may even come to light that the criminal, was not a criminal.
Even, or especially, an accused criminal has the right to due process, etc. In the sequence of events, it may even come to light that the criminal, was not a criminal.
NASCAR_MAN
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Master of Malice,
I suspect your arguments and, in fact, think they are quite malicious. Let me demonstrate. You make the quote: "Speaking as an officer I'll say this, cooperation WILL get you a break in court."
Actually, you are wrong and you know it. You have no authorization to garauntee a reduction of sentence - or any other kind of deal: on the District Attorney is authorized to make these deals.
Of course, this begs the question: "If a cop states that he can make a Plea Deal - and this is blatantly false - then why doesn't the cop get in trouple for doing so?"
I'll tell you why: THE POLICE ARE AUTHORIZED TO LIE TO YOU. They are authorized to make empty promises, false allegations (during interrogation only), and threats.
So...why should anyone trust you when you say, "Speaking as an officer I'll say this..."?
NASCAR
I suspect your arguments and, in fact, think they are quite malicious. Let me demonstrate. You make the quote: "Speaking as an officer I'll say this, cooperation WILL get you a break in court."
Actually, you are wrong and you know it. You have no authorization to garauntee a reduction of sentence - or any other kind of deal: on the District Attorney is authorized to make these deals.
Of course, this begs the question: "If a cop states that he can make a Plea Deal - and this is blatantly false - then why doesn't the cop get in trouple for doing so?"
I'll tell you why: THE POLICE ARE AUTHORIZED TO LIE TO YOU. They are authorized to make empty promises, false allegations (during interrogation only), and threats.
So...why should anyone trust you when you say, "Speaking as an officer I'll say this..."?
NASCAR
MASTEROFMALICE
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If I ever arrest you, Nascar, remind me of this post and I'll be sure the prosecutor tells you you're not getting a deal.
Beyond that, I've given you free advice. Feel free to ignore it, call me a liar, a pig, an *$%!&*#.
I really don't care one way or the other. I've said on this board, time and again, my main purpose is to protect people, not to hurt them.
I did four years in the Marine Corps (where I first used the screen name Master of Malice) where my function was exactly the opposite.
Go ahead, get arrested, play hardball, let us know how it goes.
Beyond that, I've given you free advice. Feel free to ignore it, call me a liar, a pig, an *$%!&*#.
I really don't care one way or the other. I've said on this board, time and again, my main purpose is to protect people, not to hurt them.
I did four years in the Marine Corps (where I first used the screen name Master of Malice) where my function was exactly the opposite.
Go ahead, get arrested, play hardball, let us know how it goes.
NASCAR_MAN
member
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MarcusWendt,
You make a "Skink to be Godzilla" with that statement. No one here ever said not to report crime - which is what the "Don't be a Snitch" campaign was all about. However, if the police may be trying to dig something up on you in the course of a criminal investigation, then you should best shut your mouth unless your attorney is present.
Remember...any exculpatory evidence (i.e., evidence which points to your innocence) you may give to the police during an investigation will not be allowed to be admitted in court.
Think about that. Scary, huh?
NASCAR
PS...does any Policeman's Oath of Office say anything about him being obligated to "Uphold the Constitution of the United States"?
You make a "Skink to be Godzilla" with that statement. No one here ever said not to report crime - which is what the "Don't be a Snitch" campaign was all about. However, if the police may be trying to dig something up on you in the course of a criminal investigation, then you should best shut your mouth unless your attorney is present.
Remember...any exculpatory evidence (i.e., evidence which points to your innocence) you may give to the police during an investigation will not be allowed to be admitted in court.
Think about that. Scary, huh?
NASCAR
PS...does any Policeman's Oath of Office say anything about him being obligated to "Uphold the Constitution of the United States"?
John G
Member
I watched this video when Xavier posted it on his blog. Sound advice, even if you think you've commited no crime.
MarcusWendt
Member
MasterofMalice said
Save your breath. There will always be a segment of the population that does not trust the police. Either they have had a bad experience before, have a relative locked up, they have a criminal mentality or guilty mind or they just have problems with authority.
These types of people see a cop and immediately think they are out toe get them. They are quick to believe ANYONE who complains about the police and rarely believe the police.
In this type of arena, you'll more of them than usual as gun owners tend to be a fairly independent group, many believing, and perhaps rightfully so, that they can take care of themselves. Some take it a bit further and feel that since they have a gun, the police are no longer needed and therefore are simply jackbooted agents of the government with a mission to suppress them and violate their rights.
No cop has ever pulled anyone form a burning car, found a missing child, stopped a crime, or helped anyone. They just drive around eating donuts looking for innocent law abiding patriots to jack up.
Just take solace in the fact that while they're all tough talk here on the internet and will regale you with stories of how they had to set some dumb Barney Fife straight, in reality they still all the cops when their car is stolen, their daddy is beating their mommy up or someone breaks into their home.
Most of these guys are law abiding citizens who actually cooperate and don't run afoul of the law. They don't walk the walk.
There are a few here who do go to great lengths to take advantage of every one of their rights, and as long as they aren't belligerent and tell the truth they are good to go. The funny thing is that 9 times out of 10 if they'd been more forth coming with info the contact would last half as long. Same end result, no law broken, no arrest.
It's deep in their head MofM, you won't change them. It's cool to be "against the man".
Save your breath. There will always be a segment of the population that does not trust the police. Either they have had a bad experience before, have a relative locked up, they have a criminal mentality or guilty mind or they just have problems with authority.
These types of people see a cop and immediately think they are out toe get them. They are quick to believe ANYONE who complains about the police and rarely believe the police.
In this type of arena, you'll more of them than usual as gun owners tend to be a fairly independent group, many believing, and perhaps rightfully so, that they can take care of themselves. Some take it a bit further and feel that since they have a gun, the police are no longer needed and therefore are simply jackbooted agents of the government with a mission to suppress them and violate their rights.
No cop has ever pulled anyone form a burning car, found a missing child, stopped a crime, or helped anyone. They just drive around eating donuts looking for innocent law abiding patriots to jack up.
Just take solace in the fact that while they're all tough talk here on the internet and will regale you with stories of how they had to set some dumb Barney Fife straight, in reality they still all the cops when their car is stolen, their daddy is beating their mommy up or someone breaks into their home.
Most of these guys are law abiding citizens who actually cooperate and don't run afoul of the law. They don't walk the walk.
There are a few here who do go to great lengths to take advantage of every one of their rights, and as long as they aren't belligerent and tell the truth they are good to go. The funny thing is that 9 times out of 10 if they'd been more forth coming with info the contact would last half as long. Same end result, no law broken, no arrest.
It's deep in their head MofM, you won't change them. It's cool to be "against the man".
MarcusWendt
Member
Really? Exculpatory evidence is not allowed in court?
No officer has ever been questioned by a defense attorney and asked "and what did my client say when you asked him XYZ".
That's not allowed? Ever?
Please educate me, I'm not an attorney and you obviously are.
divemedic
Member
You obviously did not watch the video. If a police officer says, "Divemedic told me he committed crime A," that is a confession, and is allowed.
If that same police officer says, "Divemedic told me that he saw MasterofMalice commit crime A," that testimony is hearsay and is not admissible, except for certain very specific circumstances.
In order for that hearsay testimony to be admissible, they would have to put me on the stand and get me to testify as to what I saw.
The video was very enlightening and informative.
If that same police officer says, "Divemedic told me that he saw MasterofMalice commit crime A," that testimony is hearsay and is not admissible, except for certain very specific circumstances.
In order for that hearsay testimony to be admissible, they would have to put me on the stand and get me to testify as to what I saw.
The video was very enlightening and informative.
Part of the problem with talking to police is that they have been trained to use an interesting communication technique where there is no "right" answer. Kinda like "when did you stop beating your wife?" How ya gonna answer that? Think for a minute before you answer.
Couple that with the fact that you know that if you answer incorrectly and it can be proven you are guilty of a crime.
So whats your answer?
"I will not answer anymore questions 'til I have consulted an attorney."
Oh and if you think that you are clever and can play word games successfully with a police officer when the game is rigged in their favor, come on down to the casino, the odds are the same.
Couple that with the fact that you know that if you answer incorrectly and it can be proven you are guilty of a crime.
So whats your answer?
"I will not answer anymore questions 'til I have consulted an attorney."
Oh and if you think that you are clever and can play word games successfully with a police officer when the game is rigged in their favor, come on down to the casino, the odds are the same.
NASCAR_MAN
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Well, concerning the Fifth Amendment, here's the opinion of the Supreme Court of the United States in "Ullmann v. United States": (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0350_0422_ZO.html)
"Too many, even those who should be better advised, view this privilege as a shelter for wrongdoers. They too readily assume that those who invoke it are either guilty of crime or commit perjury in claiming the privilege. Such a view does scant honor to the patriots who sponsored the Bill of Rights as a condition to acceptance of the Constitution by the ratifying States. The Founders of the Nation were not naive or disregardful of the interests of justice. "
NASCAR
"Too many, even those who should be better advised, view this privilege as a shelter for wrongdoers. They too readily assume that those who invoke it are either guilty of crime or commit perjury in claiming the privilege. Such a view does scant honor to the patriots who sponsored the Bill of Rights as a condition to acceptance of the Constitution by the ratifying States. The Founders of the Nation were not naive or disregardful of the interests of justice. "
NASCAR
DigitalWarrior
Member
It was brought up that silence is a good idea for lawbreakers, not so much for the rest of us.
I do not believe I can say with any high degree of certainty that I have not broken a law. There are hundreds of thousands of laws. I have heard that there are 40,000 related to firearms alone. I suspect I do not know even one one hundredth of one percent of the laws under whose jurisdiction I fall. I also suspect that you are in the same boat. For example, before Martha Stuart's conviction I would have assumed lying to an official was not a crime unless it was under oath or on my taxes.
While I have great respect for the notion of law and order, and a lot of respect for the police whose discretion may prevent my being fined for some silly ordinance, I do not believe that it is wise to assume my innocence and their mercy. I have never met a bad cop.
Further, I would say that it is a good habit to develop opposition to arbitrary use of power. In the same way that I may carry a firearm openly periodically, just because it is my right, I also may not consent to a search of my vehicle. It is an exercise of my god-given right recognized by my wonderful country.
I do not believe I can say with any high degree of certainty that I have not broken a law. There are hundreds of thousands of laws. I have heard that there are 40,000 related to firearms alone. I suspect I do not know even one one hundredth of one percent of the laws under whose jurisdiction I fall. I also suspect that you are in the same boat. For example, before Martha Stuart's conviction I would have assumed lying to an official was not a crime unless it was under oath or on my taxes.
While I have great respect for the notion of law and order, and a lot of respect for the police whose discretion may prevent my being fined for some silly ordinance, I do not believe that it is wise to assume my innocence and their mercy. I have never met a bad cop.
Further, I would say that it is a good habit to develop opposition to arbitrary use of power. In the same way that I may carry a firearm openly periodically, just because it is my right, I also may not consent to a search of my vehicle. It is an exercise of my god-given right recognized by my wonderful country.
I do not believe that sentence is high-road, and I do not believe it reflects the high standards you most likely meet in your professional life.
DigitalWarrior
Member
I certainly agree it would be easier to comply with every "voluntary" abuse of my dignity and freedom, but if my traffic stop takes twenty more minutes, it is nothing compared to the sacrifices of those who won us the right to say no.
I do call the police, and I have great respect for them (every encounter I have had has been very professional). For the most part, I do not have a problem with the police. I have a problem with the legislature who has passed numerous laws with excessive penalties, and who uses the police to enforce these awful laws. Police are in a terrible position, one I certainly would not want to be in. They have to get information from people who are afraid of them in order to do good...
That said I am also concerned that there are certain people who view being an officer as an alternative to the military. I can imagine the kid who sees black clad warriors performing no-knock raids and decisive use of force as excitement. While I have never met that police officer or one of his spiritual brethren, I am afraid that one day I might.
DigitalWarrior
I do call the police, and I have great respect for them (every encounter I have had has been very professional). For the most part, I do not have a problem with the police. I have a problem with the legislature who has passed numerous laws with excessive penalties, and who uses the police to enforce these awful laws. Police are in a terrible position, one I certainly would not want to be in. They have to get information from people who are afraid of them in order to do good...
That said I am also concerned that there are certain people who view being an officer as an alternative to the military. I can imagine the kid who sees black clad warriors performing no-knock raids and decisive use of force as excitement. While I have never met that police officer or one of his spiritual brethren, I am afraid that one day I might.
DigitalWarrior
And MarcusWendt, you have little room to talk if you're a cop in California.
As long as you get a lifetime CCW and I can't get one at all, you can have a car full of 30-rounders and it's a felony for me to bring one here, you can buy handguns that are "unsafe" for me to use, etc., etc., you are willingly part of a system that does not treat me as a full citizen, in return for a paycheck. Don't expect people here to be all that pro-cop.
Of course I stay out of trouble with the police. It only hurts me if I don't. That's called being a grownup. It's got nothing to do with "walking the walk."
And if my car is stolen, what the hell am I supposed to do besides call the police? If I see the guy stealing it, and I go out there with a gun, there's a damn good chance I'll go to jail for it. What good, exactly, would that do?
Hell, it's the cops here who tell us consistently that having a gun will not help, not to defend ourselves, and just to give a criminal whatever he asks for. Makes you wonder what the cop's gun is for...
The fact is, most of the time when I've had stuff stolen, I don't bother calling the cops unless I need a report for insurance. The few times I have, I've had to waste time waiting for someone to take a report, and it accomplished nothing. Nobody had any intention of doing anything but fill out a report.
Now, I understand that's not your fault as a cop. I'd never take out my petty frustrations on an individual just doing his/her job. That's also called being a grownup. That has nothing to do with "walking the walk."
WRT children in burning cars and all that, of course cops do good things in the course of a day. I'm glad of that, and I respect what people do. Lots of people do good things in the course of a day, though. And the Mafia does some good things in their communities, too. All things have to be put into perspective.
Now I don't have anything against cops. But your expectation that cops deserve some special gratitude for doing a job, for pay and a good pension -- in San Diego, an obscenely good one in case you don't read the Wall Street Journal -- that's statistically safer than working construction or driving a truck, is a bit strange. I never did "get" it.
I've been involved in some lifesaving stuff for pay. Never expected special thanks for doing my job, nor did I expect special treatment in general. That's called being a grownup. It's got nothing to do with "walking the walk."
Finally, where I live, laws are passed that restrict my right to just go about my business and enjoy the city I live in and pay for with my not-insignificant property and other taxes. The latest is a total ban on alcohol at the beach and nearby parks. The reason is that the city cops couldn't deal with some holiday weekend partiers effectively -- I hope we never have any real crime to stop. For the cops' convenience, I can't have a glass of wine and watch the sunset. It's easier just to ban that, and so many other things, like, for instance, playing ball games at the huge, deserted local park. I just get to pay to keep the place maintained.
Again, I understand that the individual beat cop didn't make that decision. His/her superiors pushed the City Council to make it. So I don't take it out on someone just doing his/her job. But that doesn't mean it doesn't matter -- to me and to a lot of other people. I don't know many peaceful citizens who are glad to see the cops in most situations; it's hard not to break some petty law or other and enjoy the city. The police are paid to hand out tickets for breaking these myriad laws and most people know it and feel that the eyes of "the law" are on them. This is really bad for the relationship between police and citizens, to be sure. It's quite real, though. Quite real.
Bottom line? You seem to have a somewhat distorted idea of how cops are perceived by many everyday, peaceful, non-criminal citizens. It's not hate. It's not even dislike. It's not that we have "criminal mentalities" or some sense of "guilt." It's just that people want to be left the hell alone when they aren't hurting anyone. Did you watch the videos?
As long as you get a lifetime CCW and I can't get one at all, you can have a car full of 30-rounders and it's a felony for me to bring one here, you can buy handguns that are "unsafe" for me to use, etc., etc., you are willingly part of a system that does not treat me as a full citizen, in return for a paycheck. Don't expect people here to be all that pro-cop.
Of course I stay out of trouble with the police. It only hurts me if I don't. That's called being a grownup. It's got nothing to do with "walking the walk."
And if my car is stolen, what the hell am I supposed to do besides call the police? If I see the guy stealing it, and I go out there with a gun, there's a damn good chance I'll go to jail for it. What good, exactly, would that do?
Hell, it's the cops here who tell us consistently that having a gun will not help, not to defend ourselves, and just to give a criminal whatever he asks for. Makes you wonder what the cop's gun is for...
The fact is, most of the time when I've had stuff stolen, I don't bother calling the cops unless I need a report for insurance. The few times I have, I've had to waste time waiting for someone to take a report, and it accomplished nothing. Nobody had any intention of doing anything but fill out a report.
Now, I understand that's not your fault as a cop. I'd never take out my petty frustrations on an individual just doing his/her job. That's also called being a grownup. That has nothing to do with "walking the walk."
WRT children in burning cars and all that, of course cops do good things in the course of a day. I'm glad of that, and I respect what people do. Lots of people do good things in the course of a day, though. And the Mafia does some good things in their communities, too. All things have to be put into perspective.
Now I don't have anything against cops. But your expectation that cops deserve some special gratitude for doing a job, for pay and a good pension -- in San Diego, an obscenely good one in case you don't read the Wall Street Journal -- that's statistically safer than working construction or driving a truck, is a bit strange. I never did "get" it.
I've been involved in some lifesaving stuff for pay. Never expected special thanks for doing my job, nor did I expect special treatment in general. That's called being a grownup. It's got nothing to do with "walking the walk."
Finally, where I live, laws are passed that restrict my right to just go about my business and enjoy the city I live in and pay for with my not-insignificant property and other taxes. The latest is a total ban on alcohol at the beach and nearby parks. The reason is that the city cops couldn't deal with some holiday weekend partiers effectively -- I hope we never have any real crime to stop. For the cops' convenience, I can't have a glass of wine and watch the sunset. It's easier just to ban that, and so many other things, like, for instance, playing ball games at the huge, deserted local park. I just get to pay to keep the place maintained.
Again, I understand that the individual beat cop didn't make that decision. His/her superiors pushed the City Council to make it. So I don't take it out on someone just doing his/her job. But that doesn't mean it doesn't matter -- to me and to a lot of other people. I don't know many peaceful citizens who are glad to see the cops in most situations; it's hard not to break some petty law or other and enjoy the city. The police are paid to hand out tickets for breaking these myriad laws and most people know it and feel that the eyes of "the law" are on them. This is really bad for the relationship between police and citizens, to be sure. It's quite real, though. Quite real.
Bottom line? You seem to have a somewhat distorted idea of how cops are perceived by many everyday, peaceful, non-criminal citizens. It's not hate. It's not even dislike. It's not that we have "criminal mentalities" or some sense of "guilt." It's just that people want to be left the hell alone when they aren't hurting anyone. Did you watch the videos?
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NASCAR_MAN
member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2007
- Messages
- 179
ArmwdBear said:
Now I don't have anything against cops. But your expectation that cops deserve some special gratitude for doing a job, for pay and a good pension -- in San Diego, an obscenely good one in case you don't read the Wall Street Journal -- that's statistically safer than working construction or driving a truck, is a bit strange. I never did "get" it.
I've been involved in some lifesaving stuff for pay. Never expected special thanks for doing my job, nor did I expect special treatment in general.
I agree and I've done likewise - and so have many others.
We expect nothing...other than to be just left alone (if so we choose).
Think about it.
NASCAR
BTW....I deeply respect the Cops. I mean, it's hard to deal with so many evil people on a daily basis and somehow not get your spirit corrupted. But....somehow, most of the Cops refuse to have thier spirts corrupted. This is some spiritual strength that should be deeply respected.
Now I don't have anything against cops. But your expectation that cops deserve some special gratitude for doing a job, for pay and a good pension -- in San Diego, an obscenely good one in case you don't read the Wall Street Journal -- that's statistically safer than working construction or driving a truck, is a bit strange. I never did "get" it.
I've been involved in some lifesaving stuff for pay. Never expected special thanks for doing my job, nor did I expect special treatment in general.
I agree and I've done likewise - and so have many others.
We expect nothing...other than to be just left alone (if so we choose).
Think about it.
NASCAR
BTW....I deeply respect the Cops. I mean, it's hard to deal with so many evil people on a daily basis and somehow not get your spirit corrupted. But....somehow, most of the Cops refuse to have thier spirts corrupted. This is some spiritual strength that should be deeply respected.
MASTEROFMALICE
member
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- Messages
- 711
Don't feel too bad Digital. According to these folks cops have no standards, so I should be able to say and do whatever I like, right?
divemedic
Member
Since when did anyone say that? Miranda says what we are saying:
"Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law."
How is that anti-LEO?
"Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law."
How is that anti-LEO?
Aguila Blanca
Member
Perhaps you can provide a few reasons why "these types of people" should believe a class of public officials who have made it a point to have the courts give them carte blanche to lie to them. Of course, there are exceptions to every generalization, but it wasn't one, single, rogue officer who persuaded the courts to rule that the police may lie to suspects. It was police officers as a collective group.MarcusWendt said:
Sadly, that professor made a lot of sense.
The problem LEOs face now is akin to the old logic problem about the explorers who meet an Indian, who gives them some information. But they know that one tribe in the area never tells the truth, so how can they figure out if the Indian they're talking to is a truth-telling Whitefoot or a lying Blackfoot? People now know that cops are allowed to lie. The genie is out of the bottle. Even if a particular officer has personal ethics that won't let him lie -- how can he convince anyone that he's the good cop who won't lie, even though cops have official sanction to lie? How does he get the genie back in the bottle?
It's a conundrum.
Brass Rain
Member
ArmedBear, I completly agree with everything you said.
NASCAR_MAN
member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2007
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- 179
Master of Malice (a Policeman) Says: "Don't feel too bad Digital. According to these folks cops have no standards, so I should be able to say and do whatever I like, right?"
My response it this: All I ask is this...If you are not authorized to lie to ctizens who are suspect of a crime, then say it. Say it! I say that you can threaten, lie and make false gaurauntees to any suspected citizen - and all of this is authorized by law.
Say I am wrong. Call me a liar and prove it!
I dare you.
Otherwise...shut up, for I am tired of your blabbering!
NASCAR
My response it this: All I ask is this...If you are not authorized to lie to ctizens who are suspect of a crime, then say it. Say it! I say that you can threaten, lie and make false gaurauntees to any suspected citizen - and all of this is authorized by law.
Say I am wrong. Call me a liar and prove it!
I dare you.
Otherwise...shut up, for I am tired of your blabbering!
NASCAR
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