NEVER say anything to the police

[Kleanbore]

Posted by benbernanke: The legal experts in this forum are experienced and knowledgeable about these issues, but they will not be there to instruct you when it comes time.

Their suggestions are available to you right now.

The prosecutor does not get convictions based upon what they suspect. They only get convictions based on the evidence.

Might I suggest that forensic evidence and witness testimony that proves that you shot someone will go a long way toward your conviction, in the absence of evidence supporting a claim of justification, whether you say anything or not?

The reality is that any incident involving a shooting is going to be thoroughly investigated no matter if you give a statement or not. Every witness is going to be talked to. Every inch of that crime scene will be gone over thoroughly by multiple officers and detectives. They will even take lots of pictures. Those guys will not miss anything.

How about the witnesses that slipped away, never to be seen again? How about evidence that walked away, blew away, or washed away before they noticed it. Do you want to bet your life on that? You, and only you, can mitigate that risk, by saying something at the right time.

In the vast majority of shootings, self defense is not an issue, and in the experience of your "multiple officers and detectives", the task before them will have been to identify and protect evidence to close the case against the shooter. Unless they have some reason at the time to look for evidence that would help your case, it is unlikely that they will identify it as such.

 

[Guillermo]

Texas Law Shield is a service that I have. ( Thankfully have never needed them )

This is what they say.

■ Make sure the threat has been controlled and remain at the scene. If not, find a safe place and remain there.
■ Call 911, request police and ambulance – do not say anything other than your name, location, send police and ambulance, and that you have been a victim of a crime. The 911 call is recorded – Say Nothing Else!
■ Call your attorneys! Call the emergency hotline number on the back of your Firearms Program Member ID card.
■ Wait for authorities.
■ Return your weapon to safe keeping – do not keep it in your hands – you may be mistaken for a bad guy.
■ Do not disturb the scene or remove physical evidence.
■ Do not refuse medical treatment.
■ When police arrive comply with all commands in a neutral non-threatening manner, keeping your hands clear. Until they sort it out, the police do not know the good guys from the bad guys!
■ Inform the police you have been a victim of a crime and provide your statistical data, such as name, address, telephone, etc. – nothing else! State to the police: “I wish to invoke my right to remain silent and I want my attorney.”
■ Make no statement to anyone, wait to talk to your attorney. If you just shot someone, you are in no state to answer detailed questions. Silence is likely your best option.
■ Do not speak to the media.
■ If asked to accompany law enforcement, comply, but make no statements!
■ When your lawyer arrives, follow their advice explicitly.
■ Do not make any jokes or cute remarks. These may be used against you!
■ Even if you feel you have done nothing wrong, make no statements! Talk to your lawyer first!

 

[ForumSurfer]

#3. Do not just get any attorney or a "good attorney". Take your time and find the best attorney. If you have just shot someone, then the justice system will come at you full force no matter how justified it seemed at the time. It is important to hire someone with a proven track record and is recognized as being the best.

I hope you already have an attorney in mind, because if you refuse to speak as to what happened...you will be arrested. Once you're out on bail, you won't have time to take your time to research which attorney will be best as you'll need one before your next court appearance.

By not saying anything at all, you're almost guaranteeing yourself that you will stand trial. If you give a short account of what happened, there's the chance that charges won't be pressed.

 

[Sam1911]

Funny how we sometimes lose sight of some basic realities: The law is written in black and white. But it is interpreted by human beings at all levels.

If you go to trial, what a bunch of average folks believe will dictate the outcome.

When the case first lands in front of the DA, what s/he believes about it, about you, and about the chances of conviction for a crime will determine whether you are tried, or not.

Before even that, though, what the responding officers hear and believe when looking at the scene and talking with you and other witnesses does have a strong, sometimes crucial, impact on whether you're arrested, whether you're prosecuted, and even whether you might be convicted.

Don't run on at the mouth and say things you shouldn't. But be polite and cooperative (act like a good guy, not like a guilty criminal) as far as you can -- and don't fail to say what you NEED to say to start things off in the right direction.

These are human beings, not machines. There is much more that goes into their handling of you and your situation than black and white facts and figures. Trusting them to grasp every critical piece of evidence on their own is foolish. Trusting them to react with perfect, cool impartiality regardless of your response and demeanor is (possibly fatally) naive.

 

[Guillermo]

it is interpreted by human beings at all levels.

and they are sometimes motivated by things other than the facts

Angela Corey is not an anomaly.

 

[gatorjames85]

Disclaimer: I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer. The following is not to be construed as legal advice and is presented for discussion purposes only. If you have a legal question, contact a qualified attorney; do not consult an internet board.

Of course, the fact that you have a ready-made card with your attorney's number indicates that you expect to have trouble with the law and THAT can and will be used against you in court.

Not true. The fact that someone asked for an attorney is inadmissible and will result in a mistrial if brought up at trial.

If I personally was involved in a SD shooting, I would do the following:

1)Tell the police/911 a very concise summary of what happened. I.e.: "This man attacked me with a knife. I shot him to defend myself. This is very upsetting"
2)If questioned further, I would politely agree to address further questions once my lawyer was present.

If evidence disappears, there is no bringing it back. You want the police to approach the case as self-defense from the get-go. You also do not want to slip up and say something incriminating.

 

[MedWheeler]

...aaaannnnd, yet again.

 

[krupparms]

I would like to point out to everyone that this advice is only good as long as everything is going OK! If you live where they are not things will be much different! Here in southern OR. we have already seen the justice system fail. The S.D. just closed the major crimes & Investigations Dept. They also closed records &evidence &have closed all but 6 beds at the jail. I heard the state is suppose to help, but 3 other countys are here are broke also! A safety levy just failed because of the economy & the belief that the local law enforcement is involved in crime. There is no faith in the Judges, Lawyers the D.A.s Off. The justice systems in the other county's also. Med. Marijuana is the only money maker & the conflict over who controls it is between the locals, the gangs &L.E.! People have lost faith in any help anytime soon. I was woundering if any of our legal fokes can make a few suggestions on this situation as it is come about &not just speculation.

 

[benbernanke]

There is a misconception in this thread I would like to clear up right now.

A police officer can only make an arrest after they have developed "probable cause". What is "probable cause"? You can read more at this link:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/probable+cause

An officer CANNOT arrest you because you chose to remain silent. An officer CAN arrest you because of articulated facts. Therefore, the more you say the more facts the officer has to build probable cause. So if an officer arrests you and you chose to remain silent then they probably have some facts which can be articulated. Cases are dismissed for a lack of probable cause and departments are sued for false arrests. The general public doesnt understand the fact that an officer cannot just arrest who they want or because someone is suspect. They have legal procedures they must follow.

Absolutely, do not think you will be arrested on account of your silence. Do not choose to break your silence because you feel you might be arrested if you just stand there silent.

So the most basic thing to remember is that in a tight situation its best to say absolutely nothing. Sure, there are scenarios where a knife falls down the drain and you want to point that out. However, the majority of scenarios involve one on one encounters like a burglary in your home or the Harold Fish scenario where there isnt much evidence at all. The police will have lots of questions and its best to stay silent. Dont worry, this has happened to these officers before where someone refused to talk. They might be professional and not press the matter, but there might be some officers who try to pressure you. Dont fall for those tricks.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...A police officer can only make an arrest after they have developed "probable cause".

An officer CANNOT arrest you because you chose to remain silent...

No, a police officer can not arrest you for silence. However, he can arrest you for probable cause. And it's very possible that the circumstances apparent to him when he responds to the scene of your act of extreme violence against another human (which act of violence you might later claim was justified) will give him probable cause to arrest you.

Our society frowns on one person intentionally hurting or killing another. Doing so is a crime. However, our law does recognize that there may be times when someone my justify an intentional act of extreme violence against another human. However, the facts giving rise to an inference that in a particular case the violence might have been justified are often not immediately obvious. Indeed the most significant evidence that the use of force might have been justified will often be the story of the actor who used that force.

So when the police arrive at the scene where you just shot someone, the situation will most like be such that the responding officers will be able to articulate, based on their observation of facts apparent at the scene and during their initial investigation, reason to believe that a crime has been committed and that you did it. And that would be probable cause to arrest you.

It may well be that the only reason the responding police might suspect that you could claim justification would be a statement from you to the effect that you were attacked. If you don't give them that guidance, they would be unlikely to guess.

And I suggest that you would do well to educate yourself regarding the laws relating to the use of force in self defense. You might start here or here.

 

[aeriedad]

There is a misconception in this thread I would like to clear up right now.

A police officer can only make an arrest after they have developed "probable cause". What is "probable cause"? You can read more at this link:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/probable+cause

An officer CANNOT arrest you because you chose to remain silent. An officer CAN arrest you because of articulated facts. Therefore, the more you say the more facts the officer has to build probable cause. So if an officer arrests you and you chose to remain silent then they probably have some facts which can be articulated.

The police will have lots of questions and its best to stay silent.

Are you still trying to beat this into our heads?

When someone kills someone in mutual combat, it may be murder, maybe mansluaghter. The killer that can't plausibly deny having done the deed will naturally claim self-defense, even if a murder or manslaughter charge would be just. Officers investigating the scene will be aware that you may be a victim of violent crime and had to use deadly force to save your life, or that you may have committed a violent crime yourself and are trying to avoid serious charges by claiming self-defense. If you are violently attacked and survive the encounter by killing the bad guy, officers will respond and make an assessment. If they conclude, that you are the real criminal, and you follow your own advice to say not a word, you lose the opportunity to claim you were the victim and direct them to evidence they may have missed which would support your claim. Sure, a good attorney may still get you acquitted, but starting off the investigation in the right direction can avoid a trial altogether.

And to repeat what others have said (in this thread, and many like it on THR), you don't want to say too much. After such a traumatic event, it's normal to have difficulty even thinking clearly, much less speaking well. Now is not the time for a detailed account, but just the basic facts, then a simple statement that you will cooperate further after speaking with your attorney. But staying completely silent after a genuine self-defense, deadly force encounter...no, that's a mistake. No matter how hard you try to beat it into our heads.

 

[benbernanke]

You are entitled to your own opinion. However, as for myself, I will not be saying anything on my next police encounter...that is if there is a "next time". The fact is I am not an attorney. I do not have that professional legal experience. Therefore, its best that I leave these matters to my attorney who is a professional instead of letting the police build up evidence against me.

So go ahead and make any statement you like to the police. I will not be doing the same and would not suggest that to any of my friends or family. As I said before you can refer back to the many cases out there such as Harold Fish and you will see they went wrong with their statements to the police.

 

[krupparms]

If no one shows up for several hours or more, because their is no one close enough or no one is on duty &has to be called, woke up &sent! It could ruin any chance of finding the truth. Wittnesses could or would leave, hide things & destrory them! Justice for the most defenseless would be unavailable. I am not blaming anyone! I think all sides are to blame. I hope that it will be over soon as it is only getting worse! I would like serious replys please. Southern OR. is not the only place going broke!

 

[ilbob]

The police are not your friends, but they are not always your enemy either.

If you shoot someone and there is a good chance it was not a lawful shooting, do not say anything at all other than that you wish to speak with your attorney.

If it is likely lawful, you might be better off giving the police some information before talking with your attorney.

The problem is that in the aftermath of a self defense shooting, you are unlikely to be in a position to make wise choices about what to say and even whether to say anything at all. The police will use your emotional state against you to con you into talking when your best interests are served by saying nothing, or waiting until your attorney is present.

I find it ironic that many police departments have explicit contractual rules that prohibit the department from questioning officers immediately after such an incident that involves one of their own, in many cases requiring a union rep be present and some period of time passing before questioning begins. This is not universal but is not uncommon in police union contracts.

In some respects, you may have to play it by ear. Not exactly the most confidence inspiring thing.

 

[dprice3844444]

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/

 

[Frank Ettin]

...The fact is I am not an attorney. I do not have that professional legal experience...

Yes, we certainly understand that.

You are entitled to your own opinion...

As you are entitled to yours. However, there are differences between professionally grounded opinions and opinions of unqualified persons. The opinion of my doctor about my health is far more meaningful than that of my mechanic. If that weren't the case, I'd want another doctor. All opinions are not equal.

...I will not be doing the same and would not suggest that to any of my friends or family....

That's of course your prerogative. But in fairness, you should disclose that you have no professional qualifications to back up your opinion and that there are those with much better qualifications who indeed disagree with your opinion.

And while you're free to state your opinion here, I will note that based on the reasons given by me, Sam, Kleanbore, Spats McGee and others your opinion really isn't well founded.

...I find it ironic that many police departments have explicit contractual rules that prohibit the department from questioning officers immediately after such an incident that involves one of their own, in many cases requiring a union rep be present and some period of time passing before questioning begins. This is not universal but is not uncommon in police union contracts...

It's been a while since I've looked at some of those policies. But IIRC they usually required the officer involved to make some kind of a preliminary statement during the initial investigation at the scene. The preliminary statement is limited to a very brief statement regarding the event (on the order of "he attacked me with a [ ]"), enough information to help find and preserve evidence and witnesses and information that might be helpful in apprehending accomplices, if any. But the officer would not be expected to make a detailed statement for 24 to 48 hours.

 

[krupparms]

Thanks for the link. I will let others I know have this information! People are truely in fear! The system shut down & most didn't believe it would so very few did more than just buy a gun &some ammunition! There has been a few meetings between the sheriff & citizens. I didn't attend them, but was told no real legal advice was given out by sheriff.Most people believe that at this point it is better to kill perp. And not speak until w /Atty. If they can get one. Not very encourageing.

 

[fallout mike]

The main thing that stands out to me in this thread is ben bernanke saying "I will not be saying anything on my (NEXT) police encounter". Kind of sums his uneducated opinions up very nicely.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by benbernanke: Therefore, its best that I leave these matters to my attorney who is a professional....

Should you ever need to put forth a defense of justification after having used deadly force, your defense will depend entirely upon your ability to present evidence on your behalf.

Understand that your attorney, no matter how professional he or she may be, cannot present evidence that he or she does not have.

Evidence and witnesses that are not identified at the scene will almost certainly not be available to you.

...instead of letting the police build up evidence against me.

They'll be able to build up quite a bit without you--your bullets in the victim, his or her testimony or that of an accomplice.....

And with that, the testimony of that witness who had not been looking and can only say, "I heard shout and then a shot, and when I turned I say the defendant holding a gun" will be less than helpful.

Your statement that some folks who drove away in a dark SUV saw the whole thing will not be helpful. You would then regret not having pointed out those witnesses before they got into their car and drove away. But it will be too late for you.

What do you expect your attorney to do for you then?

Are you incapable of learning what to say and what not to say? It's really very simple.

 

[Creature]

It is probably better to say nothing than to say the wrong things. But if you can master yourself sufficiently to say the right things, that would be better yet.

Simple and very true.

Know yourself...and adjust accordingly.

 

[ilbob]

Simple and very true.

Know yourself...and adjust accordingly.

considerably easier said than done in an emotionally charged situation.

You really are at the mercy of circumstance and whim at that point. The cops or the prosecutor can easily turn a completely legit SD incident into a felony charge if they want to and there is very little you can do about it.

Probably the most critical part of the process is not to disrespect the system or the people that run it. The system and those people may well grind you up and spit you out if you do. Not pleasant but the way it often is in reality.

 

[krupparms]

Some of this is good advice. But when you call 911& they cannot get a LEO there for a hour or more what do you do, conduct your own investigation? Take pictures of people there? Ask for names & statements? Stop everyone you can from leaving? I doubt that you could do some of these things! But it would seem better to try and collect as much as you could before it was gone! Any suggestions? Like I stated this is already happening here! And is getting worse everyday.

 

[Creature]

considerably easier said than done in an emotionally charged situation.

Everyone has experienced an emotionally charged situation in their past...enough to be able to predict how they will probably react in the future. If it has proven too difficult to control what is said, it probably a good idea to resolve to just not say anything.

 

[Art Eatman]

From benbernanke: "I will not be saying anything on my next police encounter."

Looks pretty much like a closing statement, to me.