New AR and Optic Conundrum

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To start with, I recently purchased a new AR-15, like everybody and their brother and uncle are doing right now. Mine happens to be a Colt 6920, Magpul edition, black furniture. So far I've put 300 or so rounds through it, a mix of Federal factory 55gr FMJ (AR223 and a 100-round bulk pack), some reloaded Winchester 55gr FMJs with H335 and a few rounds of my stand-by Highpower match load, 69gr Nosler HPBTs over Varget.

Accuracy is slightly less than I anticipated, running around 3-minutes for 5-shot groups and 4-minutes for 10-shot groups. I'm not willing to declare this the best accuracy this carbine is capable of delivering, but 3 to 3.5-MOA is what I expected to see using run-of-the-mill 55gr FMJ pills. At this point I've only been using the Magpul BUIS that comes as standard issue. My bench rest technique is not great and the short sight radius is a challenge for my eyes. Leading to my next point:

I am planning to mount some kind of red dot or small scope, hopefully sooner rather than later, but eventually at any rate. I've gone back and forth on whether to go with something like an Aimpoint or EOTech, or a conventional 1-4x scope. The advantages and drawbacks I've been able to determine for each:

Red Dot -
Pros: quick to use, can be used in a head's up manner, has no parallax, can cowitness with the iron sights, all of the cool kids are using them, can be used with both eyes open more readily than a magnified scope
Cons: no magnification, requires batteries

Scope -
Pros: increased magnification improves accuracy at distance, light gathering increases shooting time at the edges of daylight, on low power can be used with both eyes open, not dependent on batteries
Cons: is less forgiving of eye position behind the sight (parallax), longer than a red dot requires more rail space, models with tactical turrets are overkill on a 250-yard carbine, ocular lens can interfere with access to the charging handle on an AR

I'm just looking for input and suggestions on which way people have gone and what you like and don't like about each system. Right now I'm leaning toward the red dot, specifically an Aimpoint PRO, but I'm not sold on it being exactly the way to go.

Oh, and lastly, as far as uses of this carbine, it's primarily going to turn money into noise at the range perforating cardboard silhouettes, paper zombies and ringing steel out to 200-yards (longest my range has). Secondary functions will be garden-raiding woodchucks, possibly a stray coyote and I will say it is a legal deer rifle in NH with a 5-round magazine and soft-point ammo.
 
For a general use the Aimpoint is very hard to beat.

Decent 1-4 glass is also very flexible but a decent on is going to cost more than a Aimpoint PRO.

Also, 3MOA plus accuracy isn't very good for an AR. I'd expect under 2MOA with commercial ammo.

Do you have a friend that's a good shot? Checked sights and barrel for looseness?

BSW
 
You might want to put a higher power scope on the check accuracy. Unless you have very sharp eyes you will have a hard time getting a good group. I changed from 3-9 to 1-4 on my carbine and groups doubled from 1MOA to 2.5. Part of the problem is the very thick reticle, also red dots can cover too much of your target for very precise shooting. Any of those would be great to quick shooting at man size targets at close range. I am going with a 2-7 on mine because with my old eyes I need the help and I like to hit precisely.
One of the fun parts of an AR is you can change configuration easily. Pick one, see how you like then try another until you know what you like.
 
Unless you're shooting bench/precision, I wouldn't sweat the accuracy too much. As I'm sure you know, many variables can affect inherent accuracy and the 6920 lacks some accuracy-enhancing upgrades like match trigger, freefloat handguards, etc.
My 6920's will consistently hit the 300m gong offhand if I do my part and that's good enough for my needs (YMMV).
I recently purchased this new red dot sight and am *very* impressed w/what you get for the money:
http://www.7-62precision.com/mepro-tru-dot-rds-red-dot-sight-with-1-8-moa-red-dot/
IMHO, magnified optics have their place but they have parallax, eye relief and the really good ones w/excellent glass & ruggedness are both expensive and heavy.
Tomac
 
How about something like this?

http://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_1_6X_Scope_with_Patented_ACSS_Reticle_p/pa1-6xrbd.htm



On 1x, it's a red dot (albeit one that's bigger and bulkier than an Aimpoint); on 6x it's a rangefinding, wind compensating scope with a ballistic drop calculating reticle.

I shot an Eotech for a few years and loved it, but decided I wanted a little more longer-range accuracy, and a red dot + separate magnifier is bulkier and has a narrower field of view than an illuminated variable scope is. Currently mine is wearing a 2-6x variable but the Primary Arms 1-6x in the link above is on my wish list.

If you have more money to spend, there are Leupolds, ACOGs, etc. that fill the same niche, albeit at greater cost.
 
I would get a red dot and a scope, and put both on quick release mounts. Keep the red dot on for quick garden use, and throw on the scope for deer and shooting 100 yard groups.

I'm a cheapskate so I would get an inexpensive 2-7x hunting scope, which should shrink your groups to about 1.5" 5 shot groups. If money is not object, then go spring for a 1-6x tactical scope.

Of course you could buy another AR and simplify things.
 
First off, a 3 moa group using irons is not bad at all for an AR carbine.

I guess it depends on what you are trying to do with the optics vs the iron sights.

If you are resigned that 3 MOA is as good as the carbine gets, and want to use it for quick "good enough" shooting and hunting, get the Red Dot. Acquisition on a Red Dot is quick, shooting is fun, and you can co-witness with the irons.

If you are trying to get it to do better than you can with irons, get a scope. Magnification does wonders, and not to upset the red dot fans, but getting much better than 3 MOA using a 2 MOA red dot may be difficult. On guns with red dots, I usually switch to irons to get better long-range accuracy. But you are right - carbine length sight radius kinda sucks.
 
That Primary Arms scope looks like the kind of thing I wish I had found last year.

They have a prism sight like my Burris 536, but I like the PA reticle better.
 
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Thanks for the suggestions so far folks! Lots of things I hadn't looked at or considered yet.

RE: having another shooter try it. Unfortunately I'm usually the guy who gets handed the rifle or pistol to see if it's shooting accurately or not. I know I can shoot near MOA groups with at least a 20" A2 sight radius. I think the front sight on an AR carbine is just too close for me to focus on and have anything downrange be clear enough to be repeatable. Last week I tried 5 rounds of the 69gr match load out of the Colt and got 4 in 1.25" and the 5th shot was directly below that group by 3". Classic front sight focus and target alignment issue. (I now understand the reason for all of the variations in frame-holds used by other Highpower shooters. I just thought I'd have 20 years or so before it was a problem...)

Basically I'm not resigned that 3-MOA is the best this rifle will do. It's the best I expect out of it throwing generic ball-type ammo, and that's fine for fast "good enough" shooting out to 100-yards or so. But it would be nice to be able to switch out to a good HPBT load and punch clay targets on the 200-yard berm, knowing any misses were strictly caused behind the butt plate.

After reading your responses I think I'm going to go either Aimpoint PRO, which my brother-in-law recommends (he has one and has used Aimpoints overseas as well) or check out the Mepro Tru Dot linked earlier. They both appear light and simple, which would be keeping with what I like about the carbine it is going on. Less stuff, less weight, more simple. I'm afraid with anything with a range finding reticle there would be too much to look at and process when using it. At this time the budget limit is $400-500, so no matter how highly recommended the ACOGs are, they're not an option.

And at some point it won't surprise me if I end up with an 18" precision build with a regular magnifying scope. (Shhhh... don't tell the wife. ;) )
 
RE: having another shooter try it. Unfortunately I'm usually the guy who gets handed the rifle or pistol to see if it's shooting accurately or not. I know I can shoot near MOA groups with at least a 20" A2 sight radius.

Just throwing this out there not sure if it applies to you . . . I'm a crack shot with a bolt gun but did not start shooting my ARs well until I went with a Geissele High-Speed. I know that if lock time matters that much for me it means I have some gaps in my fundamentals (I am aware of that).

There are all kinds of little things that can keep a shooter or gun from reaching potential. As far as your gun is concerned, the first thing I would do if you determine it is the gun is try floating the barrel.

Mike
 
Agree with Mike about triggers. All my ARs have a Geissele SSA-E triggers in them. Big, big difference.

I've found that the factory M193 and M855 group sizes run 2.5 - 3", compared to sub-moa results with my hand loads. That's using a 20" barreled RRA. Out of my 16" 6920 like yours, with an AimpointPro, it's hard to say - the dot pretty much covers everything up at 100 yards.

It's my opinion that if you want to shoot clays at 200 yards, you'll want crosshairs inside a nice scope. If you're concerned with center mass shots at 100 yards, then the red dot.
 
I tried a Micro Aimpoint. Easy enough to shoot out to a couple of hundred yards, but I gave it up because it is too hard to pick out head from tail on coyotes in brush, peeking over the hill, etc.
 
I like Aimpoints for the type of use you are talking about. I have the PRO, and love it. Nothing is faster than a red dot up close, and you can use your irons right through the tube since it co-witnesses. I set my dot for 50 yds./250m and use it for everything close, and just use my irons right through the tube for anything farther out, and just crank the KAC folding rear to the distance I need. The battery life is so good that you really don't have to worry. They will go 3 years constant on, so if you turn it off between use like I do, a couple extra batteries in the stock or grip compartment is effectively a lifetime supply. I wouldn't sweat the accuracy either. I can't get any better than 2 MOA out of that 55 grain Federal stuff, and that is with a free floated rifle. It sounds like it is capable of better with your handloads, and that when it's not you are calling your misses.
 
I like the combo suggestion and that's what I did, a Leupold Mark AR 3-9X and a Vortex RDS. I know the accuracy is there with the scope but I prefer taking practice without magnification.

Nikon makes a compact, lightweight 3X in their AR series; http://www.midwayusa.com/product/577833/nikon-p-223-rifle-scope-3x-32mm-1-2-moa-adjustments-bdc-carbine-reticle-matte and combined with a QD base you'd still have enough left over for an RDS and mount.

What I found on the Vortex when I finally dug out the screw-in magnifier is that it shifts POA so that adding/removing it requires re-zeroing of the sight...and back in the box it (magnifier) went.
 
I found the old Burris timberline to be a nice addition from 2-7 from fast adquisition both eyes open to x7 power with good light. Plenty of eye relief and nice comp. reticle.
2nd focal plane so any references like the PA above have to be done at predetermined magnification. for light ARs this is a very small footprint and light. 12oz.

The for heavier ARs I found the midway Weaver tactical 3-10 jap. made and jap. glass to be a great balance between magnification and function. It is a mil mil and at 10mag can be used for ranging. No paralax but light is great, crisp and it tracks really well with easy to use and read mil turrets. well priced.

For entry level long range AR also weaver tactical FFP or vortex PST ffp or then the razor but that is an commitment. good investments no matter what.
 
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I'm a big proponent of letting the rifle and its capabilities drive the optics selection. The M4 envelope really excels with a red dot. It also does very well with an ACOG or suitable alternative. I would definitely not recommend slapping a traditional style scope on top of it. Such an optic might be welcomed on an SPR type setup that is purpose-built with accuracy in mind, but the M4 is a bird of another feather.

Keep it handy, keep it lightweight. A red dot will let it shine in the 0-200 yard role in which it excels. A 4x optic will get you out to 600 yards. A variable 1-4x optic will give you both, but they're heavier than either the Aimpoint or the ACOG and the reality is that you will use it on 1x or 4x most of the time. The ranges in between will most likely be bypassed. Recognize the performance envelope, and let the "mission" drive the decision.
 
That 3X Nikon I mentioned adds 1.1 oz. more than an Aimpoint Pro. The "mission" as I understand it is better sighting for more accurate shooting, something a 2 MOA dot won't do. My 16" barrel middy is a sub-MOA rifle when scoped but not with a RDS and my eyes.
 
A 2MOA dot can be kept consistently at the same point in a target for zeroing. I use bullseye targets that have a 4" clear space, surrounded by a black ring. It's very easy for the human eye to hold a circle in a circle evenly.

BSW
 
That 3X Nikon I mentioned adds 1.1 oz. more than an Aimpoint Pro. The "mission" as I understand it is better sighting for more accurate shooting, something a 2 MOA dot won't do. My 16" barrel middy is a sub-MOA rifle when scoped but not with a RDS and my eyes.

The Aimpoint Pro is now one of the bigger, heavier models. The H1 and T1 have been on the market for quite some time now, and offer a much more compact, lightweight package.

Your 16" middy might be a sub-MOA rifle; that's fine and dandy, but your rifle is not a 6920, which is what the OP is trying to address. The only sub-MOA 6920s I've ever heard about were from people touting a cherry-picked, freak-of-nature 3-shot group. Needless to say, a Colt 6920 is not a sub-MOA gun.
 
If 9 oz. and no magnification is worth $550 more than the Nikon for
it's primarily going to turn money into noise at the range perforating cardboard silhouettes, paper zombies and ringing steel out to 200-yards
by all means buy it but as for centering a circle within a circle well the OP is at present doing that with his BUIS and is wanting for more accuracy.

I should think the 6920 is capable of 2 MOA (unless Colt is turning out complete garbage) and it is my opinion that some measure of magnification would in this case be useful. Heck the OP could buy the scope, a free float forend, a new barrel AND a Primary Arms RDS for the cost of a T1.
 
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