New AR; Colt vs Rock River vs S&W

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Based on personal experience I would recommend either a RRA or a Bushmaster. I own a RRA predator pursuit and for the price point RRA is one of the few companies that guarantee 3/4 moa accuracy on some of their rifles with a great 2 stage trigger. For the money this can't be beat. I have taken mine out to 500 yards and became incredibly boring hitting the silhouette at that distance. I have yet to have a malfunction using various brands of bullets to include steel match ammo from hornady.

My brother owns a bushmaster that he ordered online for $800 and his is extremely reliable. He fired a couple of thousand rounds without a malfunction. He wanted to see how many rounds it would take before he had one but after a year of not cleaning his bushmaster he gave up and cleaned it.

Most AR's are very reliable as long as the bolt is kept wet and the magazines are good. Also keep in mind that the average accuracy for most AR platforms is going to be 1.5 MOA out of the box even on the high dollar stuff. RRA guarantees 3/4 and I have shot .680 5 shot groups at 100 yds using factory ammo and not handloads. I personally recommend RRA, from personal experience.
 
The Colt 6920 is the gold standard for a reason.
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Maybe, if you can find one with hand guards don't rotate when you twist. Doesn't scream top of the line QA/QC to me.

Been living off their reputation and limited availability keeping prices up for years. The new management seems to be trying to get better availability.

All I can say is blind obedience to "military specs" is why the taxpayers end up buying $600 hammers and $400 toilet seats.
 
I was looking for my first AR not too long ago and wanted to meet these three goals:

1- very accurate
2- decent trigger pull
3- under a grand

I went with a Rock River 18" Varmint and it met all of the above. The two stage trigger measure at 3.25lbs on my gauge and is very crisp. The accuracy impressed me the first time out and easily met or exceeded their accuracy guarantee.
 
Of the 3 you are looking at I would purchase in the following order:
Colt
S&W
Rock River

I don't think that you will go wrong with whatever choice that you make among these 3 manufacturers. Good luck and enjoy the quest.
 
CraigC said:
People who are issued their rifle by the government usually have a narrow frame of reference.
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Not everyone who uses a rifle for a living has little experience in other rifles. Not everyone that uses a rifle for a living is issued one either.

Here is a post I posted over at M4Carbine that shows my frame of reference.

. Jon308. Welcome to the forum.

First things first.... I think you should go find the "mission statement" of this website and you will see why we here demand the best. This website is dedicated to those in military, law enforcement, security and other individuals who view their AR/M4 as a fighting tool first and foremost. Many of us here depend on our rifles to defend ourselves and others.

Now that we have cleared that up let me tell you a story of my duty Bushmaster. I work for a large metropolitan police department that issues ARs to certain individuals who have shown that they can shoot well and make good tactical decisions.

A few years back we had a large shortage of rifles and a large shortage on cash to buy new ones. Thankfully a celebrity who grew up here donated the money to purchase the rifles that we needed. Unfortunately at the time the US was in a firearms panic and Colt was filling large government orders. Because of the lack of Colts available the department decided to buy a bunch of Bushmaster carbines. I got one of those rifles.

now to carry this rifle you have to pass a four day, 40 hour training course. During that course we fired over 3000 rounds, maybe up to 4000. On top of that I shot the rifle some on my own.

During that time my rifle broke 3 times. I had the safety break that ended up being replaced. I also had some parts in my lower break that killed my trigger. Third was the gas rings on my bolt breaking. The rifle has gone through two more sets of gas rings since then.

My rifle was not the only one either. During the 4 day class almost every Bushmaster went down for some reason or another. Parts breaking in the lower parts kit was a common problem.

We also have qualification/training with the rifles every three months. One time the city was low on our normal ammo, I guess, and had us shooting M193 instaed of our normal Federal 55 grn 223. Half of the Bushmasters on the line malfunctioned with the 5.56 ammo. Several blew primers.

The armory guys have been in contact with Bushmaster to try and get some of these problems fixed. Bushmaster has made no effort to help us at all. The department is now considering options to trade these rifles and get Colts, at a loss.

By the way, the guys who have Colt 6920/6921s dont have these problems. Hell, I rarely see them have any problems at all. Even when I do its usually one of the older guns that they bought in the 90s. They have been replacing them and I havent seen a new Colt go down yet.

Our SWAT team a few years ago switched from Colt Commandos to POF rifles. Mostly because POF is local, has given tremendous customer service and gave us a great deal. The SWAT team was looking for new rifles as the Commandos were getting worn out. The armory guys told me some of those rifles had 70,000+ rounds through them.

Sorry for the long rant but that might give you an idea of why we spend the extra money for rifles made properly.
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Now that being said I have owned several Bushmasters personally that I never had problems with. My friends Bushmasters have very little problems. Bushmaster makes a very good rifle. But I never put my personal rifles through anything close to what I have put my duty rifle through. They don't put out a rifle that is up to snuff for duty use. We are finding this out at work.

BTW. A little off topic but the POF rifles that our SAU (swat) guys are using have been holding up great according to the guys I'm talking with. I guess the first couple generations had some issues but the newest ones seem to have solved most if not all of them. They are heavy beasts though. LOL.
 
I just bought a S&W M&P 15, Haven't had a chance to take it out but from everything I am hearing it sounds like it was a good choice. I have spent some time familiarizing my self with it. Can't wait to get it out!
 
A $1020 Colt 6920 from Wal-Mart is a better rifle than the RRA M-Faux for sale at your local gun shop at a similar price point. Back when RRA was a small shop selling rifles for under $800, things were different. Once you start getting into specialty ARs, then other players can just as easily enter the game.

If you might wind up using this rifle for self-defense/ emergency situations, then buy a Colt, LMT, DD, BCM, Noveske, and carry on. If money is a big factor, then try to get a Spikes carbine.Run a case of 1,000 rounds through it and go from there.
 
Per the OP:

I intend to use it for yote/hog/varmint extermination, and home defense, no I don't live in the suburbs, so over penetration is not an issue.
My main qualifications are light/handy, accurate, reliable and a GOOD trigger... I don't want some gritty as sandpaper, creepy as a snake, 8lbs hack job either.
Flip up iron sights and tactical rail are a plus, I think I will go flat top because I do want a low power flip down scope
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Now that we all know what he's looking for we can commence with the suggestions on specific models and important features for his intended use. (Or we can argue over commercial buffer tubes and the like).
 
I think buying a rifle because your government doesn't want you to own it is the best reason in the world.
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I wouldn't spend $1000 or more on a rifle I didn't want, period.


Here is a post I posted over at M4Carbine that shows my frame of reference.
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Colt, Bushmaster and POF is still a pretty narrow frame of reference and nothing I see posted tells me that Colt's are worth their premium. Except that they are at least better than Bushmasters, which I don't think was ever in question.
 
hardluk1 said:
Colts still just a box of parts made by others assemble buy colt. They don't make them.
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What's your point? This is true of virtually every AR manufacturer.

That doesn't mean that manufacturers have equal standards and specs for the parts they use. Furthermore, assembly procedures and QA/QC is just as important when it comes to reliability of the finished product. I don't care how good the parts are, if you give them to a monkey to assemble....
 
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CraigC said:
I wouldn't spend $1000 or more on a rifle I didn't want, period.



Colt, Bushmaster and POF is still a pretty narrow frame of reference and nothing I see posted tells me that Colt's are worth their premium. Except that they are at least better than Bushmasters, which I don't think was ever in question.
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I never said those were the only ARs I have had experience with.

I have owned 3 Bushmasters, 3 Colts and a Noveske.

I have used professionaly FN M16A4s, FN M16A4 AMU built DMR, M4, M231 port firing weapon, and a Bushmaster.

My close friends and family have owned several DPMS', S&Ws, Bushmasters, Colts, Spikes, Daniel Defense, BCM, Larue, LMT and a few franken builds.

I am very well versed on the AR since Ive been using them professionaly for the past 12 years, or pretty much my entire adult life. Ive seen them run and Ive seen them fail.

I do believe that Colts, Daniel Defenses and BCM are worth the extra money. Then again I dont view my ARs as range guns. If you want a range gun then any of the manufacturers will do. Hell my brother in laws DPMS is VERY accurate.

But when it comes to using the rifle for social situations there are reasons why the tier 1 rifles are chosen by those who know better. Higher standards on parts and testing. Proper parts used. At the very least meeting milspec techs. Etc...
 
Of those three, if Colt made the configuration I wanted I would buy the Colt. If not I would buy the RRA without losing any sleep over it.

I have no 1st hand experience with SW so I can't comment on them.
 
Kachok, I have a S&W M&P15(standard M4 configuration), a DDV4 and a CMMG. so you can see mine vary from the lesser expensive to a moderately good Tier 1. I will be honest, I shoot the S&W way more,it is my favorite. I started shooting it, to save from wearing out the DD. Now I shoot it because it is absolutly as reliable and accurate as the DD. I have nothing but great things to say about the M&P 15's. while my CMMG has never coughed or hickuped once, but the S&W is a little better finished and seems to have more attention to detail.

S&W now forges their own uppers and lowers in house. That is the reason (IMHO) it feels tighter and fits better than the CMMG.
 
Now you understand why Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and the rest of the lot all stay in business. Different people like different looks, accessories and options. It doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong, it just means we each have our own preferences and must be comfortable in our own decisions.

I've owned and used of a lot of AR's in my former career also. Most run adequetly. If you're just a range dog than almost any AR will do. If you use it for "work", than you use what YOU are comfortable with. But, if you are staking the life of your family on it, then "why buy good when you can buy OK for the same price" doesn't work.

I currently still own several AR's. At the front of my safe are two Noveske custom builds; both built for suppressor use, one a middie with a switchblock built for more precision, and one an SBR built for suppressor use only. You could buy three Colts for what I paid for each of them, but for me and MY requirements, they are worth every penny. Next to them in the safe are two Colts; a 6920 and a 6921, because I've owned and used others, and for ME I know I can depend on them.

Quit arguing, accept that we each have differing requirements, but if you are going to use it to protect your loved ones, buy the best you can afford and don't look back. If not, buy what you can afford, and go out and have fun. Look around the parking lot when you get to your range - I bet there's not another vehicle there that's exactly likes yours...but you all arrived safely.
 
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hardluk1 said:
If you wanted a match grade rifle buy a RRA Varment and up grade the trigger.

If you wanted a rifle from a company that assembles parts sourced from outside buy the colt. They don't build the parts.

If you want a cost effective 16" rifle buy the m&p sport for around 600 dollars and still have a rifle capible of sub-MOA. They do build it all in house now and the melonite barrel is a plus over a chrome bores.
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For the sake of accuracy, and speaking as an RRA owner, they don't make their own parts either. Both Stag and RRA lowers are made by CMT. The barrels usually by Wilson for RRA. I read somewhere that Stag makes their own barrels.

I really like the Rock River, so this is not a slam. I own a 24" Varmint EOP model, and it's extremely accurate. Better than what they guarantee in fact.
 
After years of resisting, I awoke one day, down with the sickness. First symptom of Black Rifle Disease was a DPMS Sweet 16. Nice piece except for 2 issues. #1 was that the bull barrel made it heavy even though it was compact/handy. Shot well/accurately with .223 ammo - which leads to issue #2. Don't even think about shooting 5.56, especially steel-cased ammo through the thing. I was spending more time dislodging stubbornly stuck cases than shooting. Yes, it says .223 on the barrel. Yes, that means don't shoot 5.56 steel-cased through it. Lesson learned. Next was a Bushmaster Varminter, which has a 24" fluted barrel, free floated handguard, sweet aftermarket trigger, accurate. Not so handy with long barrel length but accurate for bench or popping yoddle dogs.

I ended up trading both in for a Colt LE6920 w/ quad rail. Couldn't believe that I traded 2 for 1 but I was far happier with the performance of the Colt, it fit my purposes better, and was NEARLY trouble free. Resale value spanks the other brands. Colt aficionados foam at the mouth over anything Colt

Got several stripped lowers, started rolling my own. Built what is now my favorite - custom lower with a Colt 6940 upper. I could sell all the others as I'm far happier with what I built than with anything I bought. Ability to select trigger, furniture, QD sling features, etc. just flat out rules the roost.

Beware that if you start building them, you probably won't stop anytime soon...
 
naanok I know that. Its more a slap at colt and others for really being nothing special. Just name. Many companies build a rifle thats competitive but tend to be looked down on when theres nothing that truely makes some big names any better.


I like RRA if looking at accurate varment or match rifle . I have seen several that were in a class by them selves it seems with very little upgrades at a price some of the so called top end rifles can not touch. When guys are shooting 3/8" control groups and then shoot some groups that do not exced .300 and the shooter are not being overly impressed. Just running different rounds thru a chrony and basic group size and takeing notes. That a solid LRP rifle. All for 1100 dollars


That said for a basic run and gun or defence rifle. A basic psa or my m&p sport does just as much as an rra m4 and others costing more for way less money. Not many if any 1000 dollar rifles will shoot those groups and run well as ease m&p sports well . That is what I ended up buying.

.
When I was at first looking at ar type rifle you find all the aftemarket companies makeing the parts / forgeing for so many companies you learn some buy for the name are atleast because of what people think there name represents do to advertizeing . I almost bought a psa and found that the m&p was at that time building all metal in house and went with them. Been a great little rifle. As much as I am impressed with the rra varment I would not spend the money on a RRA m4 for the same reason as I would not buy a colt m4 , cost for what you get in return. I just try to buy dollar smart.
 
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