New assault on open carry

[USAF_Vet]

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/11/0...nt=2014-11-11&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter#

Michigan school district claims they will lockdown the school and call the cops on lawful open carriers because they don't know who is legal and who isn't.

Quick background, it is only legal for CPL holders to OC in Michigan PFZ's.

Not looking for an OC/CC debate, but well aware it'll probably devolve into one anyway.

This problem would be easily solved if the state legislature would just ditch the PFZ laws or allow licensed carriers to CC everywhere.

Is this an overreach by the schools? Should people deliberately force these schools into making themselves look foolish?

 

[smalls]

Is this an overreach by the schools? Should people deliberately force these schools into making themselves look foolish?

This is absolutely an overreach of the school. OC'ing in a school (with s CPL) is perfectly legal. And this school KNOWS it. They should be treated like everyone else who falsely calls 911. Whoever makes the call should be reprimanded to the full extent of the law, just like any other average Joe would be.

Sorry, you're a state funded public organization, you don't get to make your own rules. Remember the public library (can't recall what city) that got their asses handed to them in court over the same thing?

 

[denton]

If a school district is stupid, nothing anyone can do will fix it.

 

[USAF_Vet]

The district is stupid, but if lawful carriers force them to lockdown and call the cops daily, eventually either the cops or the districts superintendent will be forced one way or the other to knock it off. A lawsuit or two against the district and some negative press (if the media bothers to cover it without an anti OC spin) and they might shape up quick.

 

[smalls]

If a school district is stupid, nothing anyone can do will fix it.

That's the beautiful thing about them being under the government umbrella, is that yes we CAN

They can be forced to comply.

 

[Gun Geezer]

Have to agree with them. They got now way of knowing. I wouldn't really want just anybody toting a gun OC in my girls grade school.

Flame on.

 

[MEHavey]

IMHO: Anyone who walks into a school nowadays with an openly displayed weapon is an idiot.
"Legal" or not.
Xin Loi.

 

[Red Wind]

Have to agree with them. They got now way of knowing. I wouldn't really want just anybody toting a gun OC in my girls grade school.

Flame on.

Yeah, those evil weapons just jump out of their holsters and create havoc!

What's a body to do!

MHO: Anyone who walks into a school nowadays with an openly displayed weapon is an idiot.
"Legal" or not.
Xin Loi.

I am an idiot!

 

[BobTheTomato]

Sounds like they should force the school to lock down every 2 hours or so. Waste so many resources that they need to give up.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I'm a bit surprised at the "outrage".

My kid's in school - I want them to err on the side of caution. How the devil are they supposed to make the determination that an armed individual ON SCHOOL PROPERTY is not a threat? Wait till he doesn't shoot someone?

I see someone walking about on school property out of any sort of uniform and with a firearm these days... we're gonna have words.

 

[slumlord44]

Sorry but I am just not a fan of open carry. Some things I just am not comfortable having pushed in my face.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/11/0...nt=2014-11-11&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter#

Michigan school district claims they will lockdown the school and call the cops on lawful open carriers because they don't know who is legal and who isn't.

Quick background, it is only legal for CPL holders to OC in Michigan PFZ's.

Not looking for an OC/CC debate, but well aware it'll probably devolve into one anyway.

This problem would be easily solved if the state legislature would just ditch the PFZ laws or allow licensed carriers to CC everywhere.

Is this an overreach by the schools? Should people deliberately force these schools into making themselves look foolish?

Aren't there some state and local jurisdictions with laws about nuisance calls? Like these:

http://www.ci.roseville.mn.us/index.aspx?NID=2159

http://city.milwaukee.gov/Env/Chronic-Nuisance.htm

If their concern is whether or not any open carry person is, in fact, legal to carry, then there are better ways to address this than an adhoc lockdown every single time someone is open carrying on campus.

POLICE: Where is the guy with the gun?

SCHOOL: Over there!

POLICE: Isn't this the SAME guy you called us to investigate 14 times in the last week? Who has been repeatedly verified to be legally carrying?

SCHOOL: We don't care! He's got a gun!

POLICE: I see. We'll just document this as a "nuisance call" and send a bill to the school board. Have a nice day!

 

[USAF_Vet]

Sorry but I am just not a fan of open carry. Some things I just am not comfortable having pushed in my face.

How is the mere sight of a gun on someone's hip pushing anything in your face? I'd rather see a gun on the hip then some of the things that pass for fashion trends and accessories these days. Sounds a lot like the atheists who see a church and wail about Christianity being forced down their throats. Its just silly.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Have to agree with them. They got now way of knowing. I wouldn't really want just anybody toting a gun OC in my girls grade school.

Flame on.

Well, if the schools threat response was better than hide under the desk and throw a book at the shooter, like maybe an armed guard who could verify the legality of Open Carry on school grounds, this wouldn't be an issue.

 

[USAF_Vet]

My kid's in school - I want them to err on the side of caution. How the devil are they supposed to make the determination that an armed individual ON SCHOOL PROPERTY is not a threat? Wait till he doesn't shoot someone?

I see someone walking about on school property out of any sort of uniform and with a firearm these days... we're gonna have words.

As mentioned, implement a security check at the front door. If this district has a lot of parents OCing, the district might invest in a resource officer who could verify a CPL instead of wasting time, money and taking an officer away from someplace else they may be needed. I'd be more upset at the schools frivolous nuisance calls and lockdown that interfere with my child's education.

Most open carriers tend to keep their guns holstered. Since when is a holstered firearm a threat? Once it clears leather, ok, verifiable threat. So yeah, if he's not shooting anyone or brandishing a pistol, I don't see the problem. If it's a long gun, it's illegal anyway. Long guns can't be OCed in gun free zones even with a CPL.

So you may have words with an individual, and that's fine. Just be aware that your words have no weight or merit.

 

[B!ngoFuelUSN]

It's a shame that the dominant behavior in the U.S. these days is to never compromise. Seems like the answer should be that the school drops it's published restrictions to align with the law and OC-licensed gun owners choose not to do so in public schools so people can get on with educating children. Not a compromise by law. Just choose to do the right thing.
B

 

[smalls]

Have to agree with them. They got now way of knowing. I wouldn't really want just anybody toting a gun OC in my girls grade school.

It's not "just anybody". You must possess a valid CPL to do so. That means they've paid their fees, had their fingerprints and picture taken, and passed a background check.

And a lot of people disagree with open carry. Whatever, that's a whole seperate discussion, though. In Michigan, this is our only option to carry a gun in schools, or other pistol free zones. This is what most of you are missing. You don't necessarily have to be "for" open carry. But this is the only way for you to defend yourself in a school.

"Guns don't belong in schools, though!"

I think psychopaths have made it quite clear that it's one public place that they're needed frequently.

And honestly, really think about this. How many people who intend to kill a bunch of people are going to walk into a school openly carrying a pistol? And if they do? Wouldn't you like away to defend yourself from them?

For the record, I'm an open carry advocate. I carry both openly and concealed, depending on what I'm doing, where im going, etc. I would probably carry concealed to a school, but that's just not an option.

 

[USAF_Vet]

It's a shame that the dominant behavior in the U.S. these days is to never compromise. Seems like the answer should be that the school drops it's published restrictions to align with the law and OC-licensed gun owners choose not to do so in public schools so people can get on with educating children. Not a compromise by law. Just choose to do the right thing.
B

Right, because compromise has done so much to preserve our liberties.

For what it's worth, I CC, and when I have to go into my kid's schools for whatever reason, instead of switching holsters and basically changing out all my carry gear, it's easier to just secure the gun in the vehicle prior to taking care of whatever business needs to be done. Typical school interactions take only a few minutes, so the odds are astronomically against something happening. Still, if I know I'm going to be there for some length of time, I will plan accordingly, and I will OC a property holstered firearm.

I'm not going to give up my right just to make some pansy feels better and call it a compromise.

 

[gamestalker]

What strikes me as strange, is I live in probably the least restrictive state of all, yet it isn't legal to even carry onto school property, licensed or not. We can however carry one in our vehicle provided it is unloaded. And if leaving it in your vehicle, the vehicle must be locked, and the firearm out of view. I'm envious to be honest.

However, Michigan of all states, allows OC on school grounds? I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I'm all for nonrestrictive carry, just seems really strange.

IMO, I would say this is a legal over sight that slipped by unnoticed by law makers? If so, I would bet this law will be promptly revised, hope not, but...

As for OC, I OC most of the time during summer months. Around here it's a normal every day sight, we've been a no permit OC state for as long as I can remember, so no one hardly ever says anything or looks at you strange.

As for those paranoid school personnel, they need to get over it. It's law, so by summoning swat teams when there is no present threat, probably won't end well for them I'm guessing.

GS

GS

 

[barnbwt]

"How the devil are they supposed to make the determination that an armed individual ON SCHOOL PROPERTY is not a threat? Wait till he doesn't shoot someone?"

Um, yes. Same as with any other lawful behavior not harming anyone. Yes, you do actually wait until someone breaks the law before calling the law on them. If that's not good enough protection against potential threats, maybe you should consider arming the teachers/staff to respond when there actually is a threat presented. It's not like anything is physically stopping anyone from sneaking a concealed weapon on the premesis to do bad, so in what way is OC more worrisome? Because you can see it?

Also, in what way is a guy with a piece on his hip, going about his irrelevant business, in any way a threat to your or anyone's kid? Some people always conflate open carry with brandishing for some stupid (yes, stupid) reason.

TCB

 

[USAF_Vet]

What strikes me as strange, is I live in probably the least restrictive state of all, yet it isn't legal to even carry onto school property, licensed or not. We can however carry one in our vehicle provided it is unloaded. And if leaving it in your vehicle, the vehicle must be locked, and the firearm out of view. I'm envious to be honest.

However, Michigan of all states, allows OC on school grounds? I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I'm all for nonrestrictive carry, just seems really strange.

IMO, I would say this is a legal over sight that slipped by unnoticed by law makers? If so, I would bet this law will be promptly revised, hope not, but...

As for OC, I OC most of the time during summer months. Around here it's a normal every day sight, we've been a no permit OC state for as long as I can remember, so no one hardly ever says anything or looks at you strange.

As for those paranoid school personnel, they need to get over it. It's law, so by summoning swat teams when there is no present threat, probably won't end well for them I'm guessing.

GS

GS

We've had the current CPL laws on the books for close to 15 years. If it was an oversight, it would have been fixed by any number if Democrats in the statehouse long ago. Recently, a law that would allow for CC in all Michigan gun free zones (with advanced training) just barely failed passing. It would have given advanced CPL holders the same carry exemptions as LEO's. Licensed OC in PFZs was a condition written into the law, and not an accident or exploited loophole.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

It's a shame that the dominant behavior in the U.S. these days is to never compromise. Seems like the answer should be that the school drops it's published restrictions to align with the law and OC-licensed gun owners choose not to do so in public schools so people can get on with educating children. Not a compromise by law. Just choose to do the right thing.
B

preach!

Honestly, I had no idea that open cary was allowed in a school... and I used to work in one (maybe not in my state, I dunno). Legal or not, I think gun owners should not "challenge" requests not to open carry, especially in the societal and political climate today... that is how liberties will be stripped.

"Excuse me, sir, we would like it if you didn't carry openly in front of the children, especially because of the fear it can cause, whether legal or not. We just want a fair compromise to ensure that education is priority number one"

"Well EFFF that!!! I am going flaunt this bad boy until it makes people so uncomfortable they take legal action of some sort! 'Murica!!"

 

[USAF_Vet]

Except it seems there has been no request at all. And by showing the kids that guns are not scary when used and carried appropriately (if they even managed to notice it's presence in the first place), there would be nothing to fear. What's going to cause more fear in these kids, the possibility of seeing someone lawfully open carry, or blazing alarms, school on lock down and police swarming the are. In other words, the school officials would rather choose to potentially ignite mass panic in a school full of little kid's, or act like rational, responsible adults and verify the legality of an openly displayed pistol. Anyone who supports the former over the latter, I hear Bloomberg may have some groups you'd be interested in.

 

[fanchisimo]

I think it would be a courtesy of responsible gun owners if you were to call ahead or at some point go into the school's admin office unarmed so they know that you're a permit carrier and in the future you are doing nothing illegal by OC'ing. Good behavior like that would probably go a long way.

 

[smalls]

I think it would be a courtesy of responsible gun owners if you were to call ahead or at some point go into the school's admin office unarmed so they know that you're a permit carrier and in the future you are doing nothing illegal by OC'ing. Good behavior like that would probably go a long way.

I don't necessarily disagree with that practice, but I doubt this particular school would care. They'd probably tell you that if you did indeed carry, the would lock down the school and call the police, like they did.