New assault on open carry

[JeeperCreeper]

I think it would be a courtesy of responsible gun owners if you were to call ahead or at some point go into the school's admin office unarmed so they know that you're a permit carrier and in the future you are doing nothing illegal by OC'ing. Good behavior like that would probably go a long way.

I think this is a good idea in theory, but in practice I feel it would not work. Ever been to an office of a school, especially during busy times of the day? That is one extra job duty to accomplish by an office worker who is probably already flooded with work. And if the school decided to keep track of everyone to make it easy and fast, people would complain about an "open carry registry" and since the government funds public schools, this must be a ploy by the government!

I also think exposing children to firearms and firearm safety is a great idea. However, that is a child by child basis. Some kids are ready, some kids (then adults) will never be ready. So saying "showing the kids that guns are not scary when used and carried appropriately" is flawed, because not all kids are ready. And that would taking the parent's right to teach their kids and putting it in your hands... sounds like something "them darn liberals" would want to do.

On top of that, no matter how badly you want people to be safely exposed to firearms, some people will disagree NO MATTER WHAT. You can not win everyone over... that doesn't mean you should give in and give up, but I think a respectful and tactful response is the answer to something that is such a hot button debate in today's society. Heck, I am an avid gun owner, and most open-carry people I see who I do not know scare me and make me uncomfortable. It is legal for a 16 year old to drive a Corvette, doesn't mean I feel comfortable with them in the lane next to me.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

As mentioned, implement a security check at the front door. If this district has a lot of parents OCing, the district might invest in a resource officer who could verify a CPL instead of wasting time, money and taking an officer away from someplace else they may be needed. I'd be more upset at the schools frivolous nuisance calls and lockdown that interfere with my child's education.

Most open carriers tend to keep their guns holstered. Since when is a holstered firearm a threat? Once it clears leather, ok, verifiable threat. So yeah, if he's not shooting anyone or brandishing a pistol, I don't see the problem. If it's a long gun, it's illegal anyway. Long guns can't be OCed in gun free zones even with a CPL.

So you may have words with an individual, and that's fine. Just be aware that your words have no weight or merit.

Really? Make the tax payers take on another non-educational school finance burden so some paraders can strut their stuff?

I OC more than anyone I personally know and find the concept of OC on public school grounds to be highly irresponsible. One of my four preferred routes from home takes me through one of two sides of a joint elementary/Jr High school and I don't even ride my motorcycles past with an OC. I just go another way.

Sure, one may be printed, phototed... blather, whatever....

How's the average school employee charged with the care and safety of our children supposed to know that an armed individual is legit? Wait till they don't shoot someone?

It's not their job to assess threat intentions of someone they see clearly to be armed - period!

The notions above of gates, security measures and other band aids applied to allow someone to carry on school grounds is more of a liberty issue than not being able to carry.

This has got to be one of the most irresponsible pro-gun arguments I've ever heard. Leave the gun locked up or at home if you're gonna walk the school grounds.

If it is known that firearms are not allowed on school grounds than we cut to the chase that EVERY firearm outside of official duties is present under the assumption of ill-intent or at least possessed by the criminally unaware - If it's posted as not allowed.

 

[Red Wind]

Except it seems there has been no request at all. And by showing the kids that guns are not scary when used and carried appropriately (if they even managed to notice it's presence in the first place), there would be nothing to fear. What's going to cause more fear in these kids, the possibility of seeing someone lawfully open carry, or blazing alarms, school on lock down and police swarming the are. In other words, the school officials would rather choose to potentially ignite mass panic in a school full of little kid's, or act like rational, responsible adults and verify the legality of an openly displayed pistol. Anyone who supports the former over the latter, I hear Bloomberg may have some groups you'd be interested in.

You are just making so much common sense in this thread! It's becoming difficult to tolerate!

 

[fanchisimo]

How's the average school employee charged with the care and safety of our children supposed to know that an armed individual is legit? Wait till they don't shoot someone?

Not brandishing and/or pointing it at someone would be the best indicator. For the most part, as a country we don't charge someone based on their potential for illegality, they have to commit an act.

If it is known that firearms are not allowed on school grounds than we cut to the chase that EVERY firearm outside of official duties is present under the assumption of ill-intent or at least possessed by the criminally unaware - If it's posted as not allowed.

I'm sure the various school shooters were identified as bad guys immediately, but it didn't change anything. They were still unopposed in their attack for a period of time. The argument for open carry, or carrying in general is that you have an immediate response. The "when seconds count, police are minutes away" mantra comes to mind. So being able to "cut to the chase" in identification of a bad guy seems to have no real advantage when compared to a potential armed response.

 

[Plan2Live]

Yes, let's OC everywhere just to show them we can. Have you ever heard the phrase "just because it comes in your size that doesn't mean you should wear it"? Or how about "discretion is the better part of valor"? I think both fit here.

 

[JJY]

If it's legal than it's legal. The state can change the law if they want. School employees should not harass law abiding citizens. It sets the precedent that their personal preferences are superior to the law. If allowed to continue it will embolden them to ignore other laws and do as they please.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I also think exposing children to firearms and firearm safety is a great idea. However, that is a child by child basis. Some kids are ready, some kids (then adults) will never be ready. So saying "showing the kids that guns are not scary when used and carried appropriately" is flawed, because not all kids are ready. And that would taking the parent's right to teach their kids and putting it in your hands... sounds like something "them darn liberals" would want to do.

Except that simple exposure (being in the same room or building as someone with a gun) isn't actively teaching anyone. Its passive observation and deduction on the part of each particular student who happens to see the gun. Lots of parents don't want their kid's exposed to homosexuality, but that doesn't stop them from seeing two men holding hands in public, or two women kiss in public. Or any number of homosexual couples displayed on tv. Again, it's passive. How the kid reacts is based on a few things, parental conditioning (guns are good/bad) or social conditioning. In the absence of either set of conditioning, like a younger child who is not exposed, their reaction is based on the herd mentality. If no one else panics, the child generally will not panic. If everyone panics, so will the child. Exposure to herd mentality is a form of social conditioning.

Really? Make the tax payers take on another non-educational school finance burden so some paraders can strut their stuff?

Right, exactly, since checking the occasional gun at the door would be the school resource officers only responsibility.
Most high schools already have an SRO. Many more have added them since Sandy Hook. The NRA and most other 2A organizations support armed, trained, professional staff. Odd that you would pick this apart. What if it were an approved volunteer position, like a crossing guard?

Sure, one may be printed, phototed... blather, whatever....

How's the average school employee charged with the care and safety of our children supposed to know that an armed individual is legit? Wait till they don't shoot someone?

.

Yeah. You know, the cornerstone of our justice system, innocent until proven guilty. Guess what, a lot of people who ride motorcycles speed excessively. Should you be pulled over and ticketed because of something you might do, or have the potential to do?

It's not their job to assess threat intentions of someone they see clearly to be armed - period!

Um, yes it is. All school employees are charge with the duty to protect the children in their care. If that changed and I'm unaware of it, time to pull them out and start home schooling.

The notions above of gates, security measures and other band aids applied to allow someone to carry on school grounds is more of a liberty issue than not being able to carry.

Because not having these in place and simply placing a 'NO GUNS' sign on the door has been so effective.

This has got to be one of the most irresponsible pro-gun arguments I've ever heard. Leave the gun locked up or at home if you're gonna walk the school grounds.

Until the next nut cuts loose on a school, that could have been prevented by the presence of an armed guard, teacher, secretary or parent. Then which bandwagon are you jumping on?

If it is known that firearms are not allowed on school grounds than we cut to the chase that EVERY firearm outside of official duties is present under the assumption of ill-intent or at least possessed by the criminally unaware - If it's posted as not allowed.

That's true. But that's not the law. So until it is, weigh your options.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Mods, as predicted this devolved into arguing the merits of Open Carry rather than discussing the article. Call this one done and lock her up.

 

[X-Rap]

So Michigan allows gums in schools so long as they are oc'ed?
So far as I know the consensus is that GFZ leave innocents open to attack.
I'm not sure why Michigans law mandates oc in schools but either way I support the elimination of GFZ's.

 

[X-Rap]

Guns (dam small keys)

 

[Tirod]

The school will do what it will do. What that administrator says may not actually become a policy.

Repeatedly calling "Wolf!" every time a gun is seen will become an exercise in whether they can continue their stance in the face of the Police Chief's consternation over it.

They can and probably will have lockdowns, but it invites some dunderheads passing by repeatedly and that will wear down their patience constantly doing it.

In that regard, the lesson they will learn is that it's simply not worth the effort to make a political statement. And, that the primary threat isn't external, most school shooters are STUDENTS, who "innocently" walk in with guns in their backpacks or under their coats.

The reality is that it's just political puffery on the part of the district - after 20 lockdowns their will be a LOT of internal feedback from other parents and the teachers. Even tho their union may support the position, the teachers will tire of the continuing drama queen attitude and ask for common sense.

I see someone walking about on school property out of any sort of uniform and with a firearm these days... we're gonna have words.

You can do what you like to escalate the situation and potentially make something out of nothing, but wouldn't it be better - and the more appropriate decision - to simply call 911?

After all, if it saves the life of just one child . . .

The problem isn't the anti-gun crowd, we know what they want, it's the fifth columnists in the 2A who we find undermining our rights. Like, I-594. People ask why things have become "extreme" and then we discover we still haven't sorted out the sheep and the goats on our own side. When you get right down to the black and white yes-no basic point of the issue, you discover a lot of wafflers.

 

[USAF_Vet]

So Michigan allows gums in schools so long as they are oc'ed?
So far as I know the consensus is that GFZ leave innocents open to attack.
I'm not sure why Michigans law mandates oc in schools but either way I support the elimination of GFZ's.

Michigan is a traditional open carry state, in that because there are no laws saying otherwise, it is legal. We do have gun free zones, and you can not carry a gun there. However, If you have a concealed pistol license, you are exempt from the ban, provided that you open carry. Its a weird asleep of the law, but easily defined as licensed open carry. Concealed carry in gun free zones is also allowed with an exemption marked on your CPL. Currently, only law enforcement gets this exemption. We almost got it for civilians a few years ago, but the law failed to pass.

I don't know why the law was written this way, but that's the way it is.

 

[X-Rap]

Not so much a problem with the law as with those who believe in the out of sight out of mind approach to their personal safety as well as that of their loved ones.
That and the total faith in some piece of paper issued by the gov as though it's a permanent declaration and guarantee of sanity.
I'm proud and happy to be living in more liberty than any other people on earth but there's still room for improvement.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

You know, I am SO reminded of a line from Shane:

"A gun is a tool, Marion; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel, or anything. A gun is as good or as bad at the man using it. Remember that."


I am so tired of all the excuses and BS that people either spread or accept with respect to firearms, most especially where it involves children. Children do NOT need to be molly-coddled if we expect them to grow up to be responsible ADULTS with any kind of clue at all.

Which brings to mind ANOTHER movie quote, this time from Major Payne:

"Maybe what he need is for you to pop your ti*** out his mouth and let the boy grow up."

 

[smalls]

I see someone walking about on school property out of any sort of uniform and with a firearm these days... we're gonna have words.

If you're do terrified of these people, why are you going to confront them?

How's the average school employee charged with the care and safety of children supposed to know if an armed individual is legit?

Replace "school employee" with anything else. Anything. "Guy walking down the street", "gas station attendant", "super market employee".

See where I'm going? Why is a school different than any other building? There are children EVERYWHERE, not just in schools.

 

[BSA1]

Since the thread is still open.

If a school district is stupid, nothing anyone can do will fix it

This is merely another attempt at gun restrictions for the “good of the children.”

Have to agree with them. They got now way of knowing. I wouldn't really want just anybody toting a gun OC in my girls grade school.

Nor do I. How do you know if anyone is legally carrying and what their intentions are? Wait a minute! Isn’t that what the anti-gunners are saying? The only way we can be sure is to disarm everybody.

On the other hand we could arm teachers and janitors.

IMHO: Anyone who walks into a school nowadays with an openly displayed weapon is an idiot.

"Legal" or not.

Name calling, especially names that you do not know the meaning of, only makes you look silly.

The fact you choose not to exercise your legal right has no bearing on my decision to do so.

My kid's in school - I want them to err on the side of caution. How the devil are they supposed to make the determination that an armed individual ON SCHOOL PROPERTY is not a threat?

Humm..how long does it take to lock down a school (whatever that means) vs. the amount of time it would take for a gunman to walk across the school property and enter the building? Does the school have a big red easy button they push and all of the doors automatically lock?

Wait till he doesn't shoot someone?

Red herring.

I see someone walking about on school property out of any sort of uniform and with a firearm these days... we're gonna have words.

What does that mean? A mature discussion about exercising my legal rights or a emotional outburst without any knowledge of the law and facts? And pick you words carefully as you could well be the one talking to the Police.

It's a shame that the dominant behavior in the U.S. these days is to never compromise.

We have been compromising since 1935. You live in one of the most restrictive states in the nation. I’m glad you feel safer with all of the gun laws they keep passing. I don't and choose to live in a pro-gun state.

"Guns don't belong in schools, though!"

Good point. Imagine if more schools used the “Eddie Eagle” program and had programs that actually taught students how to safely handle firearms and a actual shooting program.

I think it would be a courtesy of responsible gun owners if you were to call ahead or at some point go into the school's admin office unarmed so they know that you're a permit carrier and in the future you are doing nothing illegal by OC'ing. Good behavior like that would probably go a long way.

Hummm. “Excuse me. I’m coming to your school and will be carrying a firearm. Please notify your staff and teachers and allow them to leave the building or go hide while I am present. Also alert all of your counselors so they can make referrals for treatment of your staff for PTSD.”

This has got to be one of the most irresponsible pro-gun arguments I've ever heard. Leave the gun locked up or at home if you're gonna walk the school grounds.

Of course someone that is intent on committing a violent act is going to respect and follow your advice.

 

[MEHavey]

Quote:
IMHO: Anyone who walks into a school nowadays with an openly displayed weapon is an idiot.
"Legal" or not

Name calling, especially names that you do not know the meaning of, only makes you look silly.

The fact you choose not to exercise your legal right has no bearing on my decision to do so.

And that, my friend, is why I would likely vote to end open carry in regions wherein
such an attitude toward "rights" prevailed over even a modicum of good judgement.
The OC'rs would have done it to themselves.

As before... xin loi.


~~~~~~~~~~~
idiot: One who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way.
~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[JRH6856]

"Excuse me, sir, we would like it if you didn't carry openly in front of the children, especially because of the fear it can cause,

Why should the sight of a gun cause fear in children unless the children have been taught to be afraid? Is it school policy to create a nation of hoplophobes? You don't need to answer that because we all know that is precisely what the policy is in every public school in the US.

Teach your children well. If you are teaching them to fear the sight of a gun you are not teaching them well.

 

[barnbwt]

"And that, my friend, is why I would likely vote to end open carry in regions wherein
such an attitude toward "rights" prevailed over even a modicum of good judgement.
The OC'rs would have done it to themselves."
Care to expound upon that? We keep hearing how OC scares people, but actually all it seems to accomplish is tick off the people who want it banned. The people so 'scared' they'd "have words" with a gun-carrier, or risk a frivolous 911 call having them SWATed, to hell with whatever consequences that traitorous behavior might have (bearing false witness against a fellow citizen in the hopes others with lethal force confront him can be called nothing else). There's a whole lot more anger than fear motivating anti-OC sentiment (which is what it is; sentiment) in my humble opinion.

Please at least realize that the "good judgement" you describe is an incredibly subjective notion, highly variable person to person and impossible to realize. Many peoples' good judgment is that guns are too dangerous to be in the hands of anyone but police and the military. Or even in the hands of anyone but the military. There is merit in discretion, but the point of being a gun owner is not to walk on eggshells; this seems to be a self-preservation reflex that's been ingrained into folks from the most repressive areas. The goal of being a gun owner is to live your life, without your gun being a hindrance to that goal. Same as non gun owners.

That stupid pop-tart incident and others like it should hopefully indicate that there is no such thing as treading 'lightly enough' when it comes to guns with these people. If they realize a gun is present, they will work to destroy it. All CC does is delay the inevitable.

TCB

 

[B!ngoFuelUSN]

If it's legal than it's legal. The state can change the law if they want. School employees should not harass law abiding citizens. It sets the precedent that their personal preferences are superior to the law. If allowed to continue it will embolden them to ignore other laws and do as they please.

But if pressed, the local school and government officials will realize the error of their ways and invoke yet more restrictive laws than are present now.
Regarding checking OC gun owners at the door, I agree with a prior post which underscored the cost tradeoff in doing so. In the past years, education funding has been cut, music, sports, advanced science classes have been cut, and adding metal detectors and safety officers have burned cash that should be going to educate our children. At a time when more and more countries are flooding our market with adults that have gone through more rigorous school systems and are more qualified for the jobs we have here, I'm not excited about making those types of funding trades.
I DO think the suggestion about gun owners meeting with school officials and registering themselves so that they will be recognized and acknowledged is an interesting thought. I don't know if it would scale to the number of OC people involved but its worthy of consideration.
BTW, for those who say they have OC'd in schools before (and this is an innocent question) do you work at the school? Part time? Full time? Or are you there occasionally as a parent or in some other function?
B

 

[JJY]

So don't engage in a legal act for fear it might be made illegal???? That does not make sense to me.

The elementary school near me scans the drivers license of all visitors who enter. I am told it checks your name against a sex offenders database. I would be happy to show my CHP at the same time.

 

[tomrkba]

You may not be a fan of open carry. The problem is that most states have decided that open carry is not a privilege and declared concealed carry to be a licensed privilege.

Are you a fan of a true right to keep and bear arms? If so, then the only way to do that in most states is to open carry.

As for "threats": Really? We all know that intent and action must be joined in order to create a threat. Going down this road means there is a "threat" everywhere. Restricting a right based upon a "threat" in the imagination of the viewer means there is no right. Are people going to have to drive in a big zig-zag around town? If children are on the street, do open carriers have to cross the street to avoid them? That's where this is going.

Stop worshipping at the altar of the Cult of the American Child. Emotional responses rendered in law are nothing but tyranny.

 

[tomrkba]

So don't engage in a legal act for fear it might be made illegal???? That does not make sense to me.

This needs its own post.

This does make sense to me in this day and age. The vast majority of Americans have forgotten what a right is. The majority currently believes that all activities are subject to restricting laws. All that is required is some negotiation.

Look at the argument in DC about carry. It's not "The 2nd Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms" at all. The argument is: "The 2nd Amendment forces the District of Columbia to permit carry through a licensing scheme." These are the arguments that idiot Gura is making right now. He is saddling us with the legal notion that we have the right to request a license for a right.

 

[Tirod]

It should not be forgotten that only in the last 20 years were guns kicked out of schools. The was NOT the previous policy in past generations, it's something impose in recent history by anti gunners.

Up until the 80's in many districts a gun in school was not a major issue. Students in high school would carry a gun to school so they could go hunting after class was out on their way home. Others would drive their vehicles with a gun displayed in a rack in the back window. I myself came to school after graduation and delivered classes to ROTC students on alternative weapons used by NATO and had one with me. We had hands on with it, and the students weren't fearful, they were interested.

Children react how they are taught, and they pick up the emotional reactions of adults around them. But just because Mom and Dad are shaking in their boots doesn't mean they are - if anything it can pique their interest and they want to know more. Better a constructed and meaningful educational process than learning about guns out behind the woodshed.

Unless someone doesn't want kids to learn about the properly. Would it make some want to have guns? Yes - which is why anti gunners want to avoid any sight or knowledge of them. Compare that to the reasoning they have about Sex Ed in the classroom, it can't possibly be contributing to a lack of discipline or restraint teaching 12 year olds how to apply anti STD devices. Ahem.

The entire "I don't want guns around my children" mantra isn't going to stop them getting interested, and certainly doesn't fill in the critical gaps in knowledge about their use. And considering that they WILL live in an America where guns ARE openly carried by hundreds of thousands of LEO's every day, it's more than outright blind denial, it's stupid.

No open carry? NO, what the anti open carry crowd wants is to know that every open carrier is certified and licensed by a higher authority - and that means they believe government is that higher authority and has power over ALL, that the Constitution is subordinate to the Government.

Wrong. Wrong on so many points that it boils down to being blatantly subversive. Saying that we should be licensed to carry and required to earn Government approval to appear in public means inverting the entire principles our Founding Fathers recognized exist as unalieanable rights and having them subject to elected officials.

The Right to open carry IS the right to keep and bear arms. What part of "bear arms" is being restricted when a gun user accosts open carriers and demeans them as stupid neckbeards with no common sense or sense of propriety? It is no less than an assault on the right completely. First, no open carry, next licensed concealed carry, then, no carry at all unless cased and locked, then, no possession.

No open carry is just a shade of no guns at all, and the strident voices no different than those who thought paying an extra tax on food was perfectly understandable and the king had every right. Well, others thought different, and expressed it by dumping a ship load of tea into Boston Harbor.

Open carry is exactly the same, a small quiet Boston Tea Party exercise to show the people what the Constitution actually recognizes, that we have the right by our human existence alone, not subject to any other beings determination, to have, keep, carry, and use firearms as we see fit. So it's no wonder that when I read posters declaiming that noone should carry unless it fits their concept of what is right or wrong, that I find fault with it - they are setting themselves above the Constitution and granting rights as they see fit.

Well, we don't need no stinkin license, and that is the end goal. Quit supporting government over our Rights, because it wasn't public policy in the past - when life was actually safer - and it should be our public policy NOW.

Think about that as an armed officer patrols your child's school - they are around a gun all day ANYWAY, might be better to recognize that they will always be around guns the rest of their life.

 

[MEHavey]

I came from a time when in California a state trooper would pick me up after my hunting trailer's tire had shredded itself, and we'd ride to the service station with my 1911 still cocked/locked & loaded on my hip. We'd chat about the weather, the hunting, and if that GI-issue hunk of iron would feed hollowpoints. It was a time when we were still a free country.

Then the Black Panthers did something so incredibly stupid [but "legal' don'cha know] that even someone like Reagan had to sign Mulford into law.

I likewise see very deliberate in-your-face-OC-in schools as being equally so incredibly stupid as to cast sufficient doubt in my mind as to the carriers' judgement. And I (and a whole lotta other people) will carry that subjective opinion right to the polls.

xin loi....

~~~~~~~~~~~~
stupid: lacking intelligence or common sense.
~~~~~~~~~~~~


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