New C&R questions

[thatguy]

C'500- I don't think it's necessary to call me crazy. I may be mistaken but that doesn't make me insane. I read the info you linked and it does say "each" but this is the dry, formula writing of a regulation books and there are often interpretations and opinions that modify the info in such sources. I may be wrong, maybe C&R license holders do need to log every C&R acquisition. But it's my recollection that only items acquired by USING the license (basically an out of state purchase) need to be logged. I'm still looking into the matter and if I'm wrong I'll admit it.

 

[thatguy]

Hmmm...

See Section 8, Line 2.

http://www.fo.com/firearms/sgn-cr.htm

 

[Cacique500]

Not to be argumentative, C, but other than the priveledge to accept interstate shipments what does the C&R licensee get (from the government)?

A few things that pop in my mind are interstate transfers directly to your door, no 4473's, no NICS checks. You specified 'from the government', but I'd also throw in the great discounts you get along with the license from Midway, Brownells, etc.

C'500- I don't think it's necessary to call me crazy.

Didn't mean that as a personal attack - but again, I read the word 'each' to mean each...as in each and every one. You have every right to read it differently but I'm confident that if the ATF comes knocking my paperwork will be in order and I won't be sitting there with a dictionary turned to the 'E' pages and trying to explain why my C&R's are not logged!

Many people new to C&R's are reading these threads and IMHO its best to cite the CFR's and not opinion or alternative internet interpretations when at all possible. Those of us that have been collecting for awhile need to help out the new guys with the facts.

Again the bottom line is it takes a few seconds to properly log in a C&R acquisition. IMHO it's not worth the risk to play around and 'interpret'. To each his own.

(And again, please forgive me as I really did not mean the 'crazy' statement as a personal attack!!)

 

[Scoupe]

I've been a C&R holder for a while now. I completely agree with Cacique500 on this. Log 'em.

 

[gwalchmai]

A few things that pop in my mind are interstate transfers directly to your door, no 4473's, no NICS checks. You specified 'from the government', but I'd also throw in the great discounts you get along with the license from Midway, Brownells, etc.

Yes, the discounts are the main reason I got my C&R. I haven't even bought a gun with it. Still, I think it's great that they extend such a courtesy to us.

The point of my question to you was that the purpose of the license was to allow collectors to transfer firearms w/o going through a 01 FFL, and the purpose of the bound book was to account for those transfers. Since face-to-face transfers are not accounted for between non-licensees I can't see the logic in assuming they should be logged. Maybe you can explain that to me.

btw, does anyone know of a case of the BATF prosecuting a C&R licensee for not logging a face-to-face transfer?

 

[Cacique500]

Since face-to-face transfers are not accounted for between non-licensees I can't see the logic in assuming they should be logged.

When you have an 03 FFL you're no longer a non-licensee (if we're talking about a Curio & Relic acquisition/disposition) While FTF transfers in state are still legal, and you would not record them for non-C&R weapons...but if they involve a C&R weapon and you have an 03 FFL you have log it.

Once again, here is the relevant code:

178.100(c) Licensees conducting business at locations other than the
premises specified on their license under the provisions of paragraph (a)
of this section shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner
prescribed by Subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms
transactions conducted at such locations shall include the location of the
sale or other disposition, be entered in the acquisition and disposition
records of the licensee, and retained on the premises specified on the
license.

Subpart H 178.121(c) (c) Each licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer,
and licensed collector shall maintain such records of importation,
production, shipment, receipt, sale, or other disposition, whether
temporary or permanent, of firearms and such records of the disposition of
ammunition as the regulations contained in this part prescribe. Section
922(m) of the Act makes it unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector knowingly to make any
false entry in, to fail to make appropriate entry in, or to fail to
properly maintain any such record.

178.125(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors.

Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition
of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall
be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The
purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as
provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the
close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or
other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name
and address or the name and license number of the person from whom
received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model,
serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or
relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be
recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the
date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a licensee,
the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained, until the
transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial documents
maintained by the licensee, and be readily available for inspection The
record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each
firearm curio or relic, the name and address of the person to whom the
firearm curio or relic is transferred, or the name and license number of
the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the
licensee shall—
(1) Cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified
in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a
driver's license), and note on the record the method used, and
(2) In the case of a transferee who is an alien legally in the United
States and who is other than a licensee—
(i) Verify the identity of the transferee by examining an
identification document (as defined in §178.11), and
(ii) Cause the transferee to present documentation establishing that
the transferee is a resident of the State (as defined in § 178.11) in
which the licensee’s business premises is located if the firearm curio or
relic is other than a shotgun or rifle, and note on the record the
documentation used or is a resident of any State and has resided in such
State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the transfer of the
firearm if the firearm curio or relic is a shotgun or rifle and shall note
on the record the documentation used. Examples of acceptable
documentation include utility bills or a lease agreement which show that
the transferee has resided in the State continuously for at least 90 days
prior to the transfer of the firearm curio or relic.

 

[thatguy]

"Each receipt" doesn't necessarily mean each gun acquired, it could refer to each gun acquired through use of the license. We are trying to interpret this but I have not seen anything in the sections you posted that says absolutely "all guns acquired must be logged." I know you are focusing on "each" but this wording is still subject to interpretation and I have a clear and distinct recollection of reading that only those C&R guns obtained via interstate purchase, using the C&R license, are required to be logged. Of course, I may be mistaken and like I said I am still trying to find out.

The ATF is quite clear in stating that C&R holders are NOT DEALERS so applying the rules for FFL DEALERS (who have very limited rights as "private sellers") to C&R holders may not work. We still need a definitive clarification.

You may be right about the regs, and you're certainly right that nobody will get in trouble for unnecessary logging. But I still want to know for sure.

 

[deadin]

Right on!!
When I had my C&R I was told that ALL C&R's went in the book.
Just out of curisoty, why would anyone not want to record them? Some nefarious reason. To me, I would hate to go through an audit and have them find one not in the book and end up losing all my collection and a big fine/time besides and then having to go to court to try to recover. If you're in it just for the discounts and are reselling at a later date, depending on how long you hold onto something, you are skating on thin ice as to whether you are a dealer. I know you can claim to be "enhancing" your collection but if they can show a pattern, look out.

It's just not worth it to take the chance.

Dean

 

[Cacique500]

"Each receipt" doesn't necessarily mean each gun acquired, it could refer to each gun acquired through use of the license.

There's that word again...

178.125(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors.

Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition
of firearms curios or relics.

For me that's as clear as it gets. There are no qualifiers at the end of the above statement like "unless you're doing a FTF transfer". I'm not an attorney nor do I play one on TV, so all I can do is give you the relevant CFR's from the ATF website and let you make the call. (And please don't make me go through the CFR's again...that was brutal this morning w/o my coffee! )

 

[EOD Guy]

"Each receipt" doesn't necessarily mean each gun acquired, it could refer to each gun acquired through use of the license. We are trying to interpret this but I have not seen anything in the sections you posted that says absolutely "all guns acquired must be logged." I know you are focusing on "each" but this wording is still subject to interpretation and I have a clear and distinct recollection of reading that only those C&R guns obtained via interstate purchase, using the C&R license, are required to be logged. Of course, I may be mistaken and like I said I am still trying to find out.

The ATF is quite clear in stating that C&R holders are NOT DEALERS so applying the rules for FFL DEALERS (who have very limited rights as "private sellers") to C&R holders may not work. We still need a definitive clarification.

You may be right about the regs, and you're certainly right that nobody will get in trouble for unnecessary logging. But I still want to know for sure.

BATF periodically puts out letter to FFL's covering this point. I have seen at least two of them and both said that all C&R firearms acquired or disposed of while licensed must be logged in the acquisition and disposition record.

Also, when the regulation says licensees, it means all licensees. If they want a part of the regulation to only pertain to one type of licensee, the regulation will specify the type.

 

[gwalchmai]

Looking around, I found THIS and THIS, which certainly support the "Log Everything" position.

 

[Cacique500]

Thanks gwalchmai - the second letter from October 2000 was the one I was trying to find earlier...and it also specifically points out the 178.125(f) section of code that I posted.

 

[gwalchmai]

Right on!!
When I had my C&R I was told that ALL C&R's went in the book.
Just out of curisoty, why would anyone not want to record them?

In other words, why not tell the government everything unless you have something to hide, huh? You would do well to remember that we are talking about a government restriction of a God-given and Constitutionally affirmed fundamental right here.

edited to add: I'm not trying to jump on you, but my feeling is that in such situations the burden is on the government to show why they need such information, instead of it being on the citizen to show why we should not have to give it. Logging interstate sales could be justified (maybe, in 1968) on the grounds that you may know more about local sellers than out of state ones. I don't think this is the case anymore (or even then) considering the size of most state populations. But of course, I have a different colored tinfoil hat for every occasion...

 

[smince]

I received my license in about 34 business days. Applied mid-July and recieved it on 26Aug. No interview(heck, I've never even spoken to an ATF agent, that I know of).

I had the same question out of curiosity. Not to try to hide anything, but I just wondered if I bought a CR and filled out a 4473, why would it have to be logged?

But my License material had included a letter entitled: OPEN LETTER TO ALL RECENTLY FEDERALLY LICENSED COLLECTORS OF CURIO AND RELIC FIREARMS

On the back page, under REGULATORY OBLIGATIONS it states that Licensed Collectors MUST:

(2) Enter into the A/D ALL (my emphasis added) curios and relics acquired after receipt of the collectors license.

 

[Gordon Fink]

I use my bound book to record a variety of interesting details, so I will definitely log all C&R firearms I acquire. However, the only “legal” way I can see to avoid doing so is to buy C&R guns from an FFL-01. In my case, in California, that would mean paying retail markup, registering the sale with the state and paying the associated fee, buying another useless gun lock, and waiting 10 days.

~G. Fink

 

[deadin]

In other words, why not tell the government everything unless you have something to hide, huh? You would do well to remember that we are talking about a government restriction of a God-given and Constitutionally affirmed fundamental right here.

I not talking about a "God-given and Constitutionally affirmed fundamental right". That's a whole different subject. What I'm talking about is how to survive those "government restrictions". To start arguing "rights" in this situation is kind of like feeling righteous because you have the right-of-way just before the 18-wheeler wipes you out.

Dean

 

[gwalchmai]

I use my bound book to record a variety of interesting details, so I will definitely log all C&R firearms I acquire. However, the only “legal” way I can see to avoid doing so is to buy C&R guns from an FFL-01.

Apparently you still have to log them even if you buy them from an FFL-01.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Which I would do, though I can barely imagine any reason to buy C&R firearms from a Californian FFL-01.

~G. Fink