New England Journal of Medicine at it Again!

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HK G3

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So I subscribe to the NEJM solely for the medical information included within, and usually skip right past their editorials/law and ethics debates since they can usually be summed up as follows: "individual freedom is bad as it allows patients to do potentially stupid things and hurt themselves, and we, as all-knowing physicians, should lobby the Congress to restrict such freedoms, for the good of our patients. This is still ethical, of course, because bad things are bad."

But today, they had yet another pro-gun-control article that practically seemed to come verbatim from the Brady Bunch (except far more anti than even they want to come across as) in their Health Law, Ethics, and Human Rights section:

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/360/22/2360

Unfortunately, I can't copy and paste the content of the article, as they have decided to restrict it to subscribers only. It's odd, as they most often open anything that they view as important to the public, so obviously they don't want the public to read this article.

I would have thought that the Heller decision would have stopped the whole "2A is for militias only" nonsense, but apparently they're still clinging to it, and the authors really hammer that point throughout the article. They further go on to make ridiculous claims that the National Guard = militia, and that in spite of Heller, the militia-only argument is mostly valid. They also state that machine guns and destructive devices are illegal for private citizens to own (which is obviously false), and therefore, private citizens cannot be a military, and should just give up their more dangerous weapons. The authors also argue that nothing in the Second Amendment protects the right to self-defense, and that therefore, the Supreme Court is filled by a bunch of idiots and that Heller should be reversible. They single out the following phrase in the SCOTUS' majority opinion on Heller:

Undoubtedly some think that the Second Amendment is outmoded in a society where our standing army is the pride of our Nation, where well-trained police forces provide personal security, and where gun violence is a serious problem. That is perhaps debatable, but what is not debatable is that it is not the role of this Court to pronounce the Second Amendment extinct.

and then proceed to whine about how the majority justices failed in their duties for not pronouncing the Second Amendment extinct. The authors claim that Scalia et al. are intellectually dishonest for claiming to be strict constructionists, while ignoring the "well-regulated militia." They then praise the dissenting opinion penned by Justice Stevens, calling it "scholarly" (as opposed to the majority opinion, which they called dishonest), and said that it would appear as if almost half the SCOTUS felt that there was no individual right to bear arms. They then go on to say that the "true meaning" of the Second Amendment will remain a mystery, as the Court botched its ruling horrendously. They also explicitly state that the Second Amendment is outdated and useless in the modern era, and should be stricken from the Constitution.

The rest of the article goes on to discuss how to do everything short of banning guns, as that option is inconveniently no longer available after the Heller ruling, such as passing laws restricting the number of guns an individual is allowed to own, requiring competency exams to be considered eligible to purchase a firearm, and requiring all guns to be disassembled when the owner is out of the house. :barf:

Methinks that these epidemiologists first need to prove that gun control actually reduces death and violence to provide their work with any scholarly merit, which, of course, they did not do, as seems to be the case with just about every anti-gun medical article I've ever read. The whole article just discussed the challenges to gun control, and how it must be further pushed and expanded upon, and how all doctors and health care professionals need to get involved in dismantling the RKBA.
 
It's good to remember that there are powerful groups outside the Brady Bunch who want to trample on rights. As a lawyer, I have vowed never to join the ABA, whose motto of "Defending Liberty, Pursuing Justice," but who vigorously advocate the abridgement of Second Amendment rights. ( :banghead: )
 
Iatrogenic deaths per year, US, probably, ohhhhhh...850,000, though they prefer to admit to half that...

Legacies of neurological damage, organ damage, etc, from doctors and their wan subordinates screwing up - a few million a year...enough to fill what, 300 Rose Bowl Stadiums?

Costs in $ passed on to everyone, of their insular deceit, greed and vitimizing, bad pharma 'side-effects', etc - many many Billions, trillions maybe.




Deaths per year, resulting from legal Gun ownership? Darned few anyway.

Legacies of neurological and other damage resulting from legal Gun ownership?

Less than would fill a '7-11'...


Costs passed on to others, associated with private, legal, gun ownership?
-About next to nothing...



Oye...


In the US, the 'healthdcaresystem' and the personifications of its bloated parasites and their toxic excrecences, is a 'disease'...and it has it's own aetology and end-stage destruction of the Host...
 
Methinks that these epidemiologists first need to prove that gun control actually reduces death and violence to provide their work with any scholarly merit,

Why? It'd probably make them late for their tee time, and show something they don't want to admit anyway. Much simpler to just spout their agenda, and head to the golf course, or wherever.
 
a couple of observations

1. I think that the NEJM is a private professional rag--it is NOT the official journal of the AMA, IIRC--that is JAMA.

2. Some years ago NEJM got hooked into avocational medicine, and they took a predictably liberal activist stance, particularly on gun control.

I went to the link--but, as a non-subscriber, I didn't feel like either paying $10.00 to view this article, or possibly viewing it for free if I signed up for a 'trial' subscription.

ERROR: THIS IS NOT AN EPIDEMIOLOGICAL STUDY--IT IS A 'SCHOLARLY' ARTICLE WRITTEN BY TWO LAW PROFESSORS. That's what I get for scanning the opening post, and then assuming it had some quasi-medical bearing....

Epidemiological studies are in fact a real thicket of misleading inferences advocates draw from their 'studies.' The real Holy Site of epidemiology's application to social / political issues it is at Johns Hopkins school of Public Health, and Harvard contributes its fair share.

About fifteen months ago or so we had an excellent discussion of the issues involved in such (presumed) studies such as these. Unfortunately, I did not keep a link to it handy; maybe someone else did. If so, we may be able to dredge up some relevant comments.

Otherwise, somebody please get us a copy of this article, sooner or later.

Jim H.
 
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IIRC, there was a posting I saw on another board that your doctor was 400 time more likely to kill you than guns.

Should we therefore ban doctors? The argument will be that they save so many lives that the losses are acceptable.

The same argument can be made for guns; the number of lives they save makes the losses acceptable.

That's just my opinion.
 
I subscribed to the NEJM for the free duffle bag and then canceled :evil: I have no $ for the journal when I can get it free through school (I'm a MSII)

I just read the article. It was so chocked full of errors and bias I couldn't even follow their argument. Lemme see if I can grab the article for everyone to read.
 
HK G3 stop reading that junk. The propaganda is overriding any usefulness of info you could glean. I am medical, and have stopped reading it. Its no longer research. Its propaganda.
 
Grabbed it. Attached as a pdf. To my earlier post, I couldn't follow their argument that lets put tons of restrictions on guns yet we'll still preserve the "right" to own guns.
 

Attachments

  • HH2aNEJM.pdf
    116.7 KB · Views: 40
motive?

I can not figure out the NEJoM.
How do they benefit by opposing the 2nd Amendment so vehemently and frequently?
 
shdwfx...

It's all about feelings my friend.
Now that they've spewed their political correct garbage, they feel a whole lot better.
 
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I did download it, and I have scanned it.

My assessment is that it is an avocational article of a quasi-scholary nature. It probably was a rewrite of some of the authors' notes from their study of the issues. Its publication here is little more than 'diversionary' reading for NEJM readers--whose consciousness is now being raised for the next run at Gun Control Politics.

Has anyone googled the authors? I'd almost bet they show up somewhere in the 'DC-support' column in the Heller briefs, or in 'scholary support' at an antigun site.

EDIT: Glantz is the adjunct law professor at the Boston U School of Public Health, and Annas is a revered scholar of a similar ilk. IOW, "the usual suspects"--and of high-enough status to appeal to NEJM readers.

Jim H.
 
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Well, see, this is why we don't have doctors in Washington D.C. making laws. We've got a much better system than that! We have . . . lawyers.
 
HK G3--

Want to write a letter?

I would have thought that the Heller decision would have stopped the whole "2A is for militias only" nonsense...

The editorial seems to rely very heavily on this concept...a concept explicitly rejected by SCOTUS. Of course, the editors of NEJM have minimal, if any legal training and likely haven't even reviewed the articles.

Methinks that these epidemiologists first need to prove that gun control actually reduces death and violence to provide their work with any scholarly merit, which, of course, they did not do, as seems to be the case with just about every anti-gun medical article I've ever read...

I think this is a very salient point. The NEJM is basically at the forefront of EBM. The authors make a statement that " proficiency tests, safety-instruction courses, regular reregistration, and a waiting period between the time of the purchase of a gun and the time when possession is obtained would increase safety..." and this is totally unproven and unreferenced. Frankly, they need to be taken to task for such a statement. This would never fly in a "medical" paper, but is somehow OK in a pseudo-editorial.

I just pulled the WISQARS data for 2006: 217 children age 0-12 died from a firearm vs 741 from drowning. The last NEJM article on drowning (per Pubmed) was in 1999 and involved a case report of Long QT.
 
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Next time you get sick, why not just stay home and die?



Lol...


Well...let's see...


Maybe...for one thing, it's not that simple...


Statistically, the number of people who get well for seeing an MD, is very close to the same, as, the number of people who get well anyway, by not seeing an MD.




Seeing a Doctor when one is 'sick', is no guarentee of a correct diagnosis, anyway...leaving aside, what, if anything, the doctor would be able to supply, even with a correct diagnosis...



If one's immune system is low or already compromised for being 'sick', visiting a hospital, MD, clinic, is a good way of acquiring disease organisms, which one can then end up being much worse off for, or dieing from, than if one had stayed home.


What kind of 'sick' are we even imagining to have in mind, anyway?

Swine 'flu?

Bronchitis?

Metastacising Cancers?

Arm torn off?

Constipation?

I dunno?


At this point, any dialogue is hampered by a conspicuously uneven level of experience, insight, and understanding...so, there's a disjunction...too wide probably, to be overcome.
 
I have been along time reader of this forum, however I have never taken the time to post. After reading this thread I feel truly saddened that so many persons distrust or dislike medical professionals. Being a trauma surgeon I see my fair share of those who have been stabbed, shot, raped, and etc. I do feel that a firearm is the best course of action for someone in need of self defense. In pursuit of this belief I carry my 1911 with me almost everywhere. But to this day I will never forget the horrific site of father rushing his 8 year old son into the ER soaked in blood from a bullet wound inflicted by the father. Apparently the child was in the kitchen getting a glass of water and happened to break something, while the father assumed that he was a burglar and proceeded to put a .45 into his chest. I had to walk out and tell that father that I was unable to save his son after 8 hours of surgery. To see the pain and turmoil in his face and to know that it had only begun because he still had to answer for what he had done in a court of law was one of the most difficult tasks that I have ever endured.

By the way with my $400,000.00 (yes you read it correctly) in school loans to repay I find it rather difficult to keep up with a country club membership to play golf. But I do manage to work 65+ hours a week Saving lives and it destroys me EVERY time I lose one. As i said before, it saddens me that so many people dislike physicians.

Chris
 
Golly, Oye and Frank -- bit critical of doctors aren't you? But not to worry. We doctors are about to get our come-up-ence from the current administration in the form of single payer (ie government) socialized health care. Thank you, God, that I am near the end of my professional career and not juts starting out.

How did that tune go? -- "Lord it always seems to go that you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. Take paradise and put up a parking lot".

Well, Americans are about to find out you had when it's gone. And in the next scenario, it won't be the greedy doctors killing people, it will be big government bureaucracy and the lack of access to medical care. Such is life. But hey, at least it will be "free".

By the way, when I was in medical school, back when Jimmy C. was first elected and AIDS wasn't even a disease yet, we referred to it as the "New England Journal of Enzymes". It was chocked full of arcane articles on laboratory medical research that had very little practical application to actual patient care. But sometime in the late 1980's, I think, the NEJM editorial staff realized that publishing controversial articles about American health care filled with political overtones made more news and sold many more copies than arcane medical research, no matter how solid the research.

And as for New England -- well, it has always been easier to get current medical information out of Boston than back into Boston.

G'night all. Got to get up early and screw up some more people's lives tomorrow morning so I can wring the last few dollars out of private medicine and fund my gun habit.

Cheers.
 
Maybe...for one thing, it's not that simple...

I don't understand why you can't just answer the question. If you are just as likely to get well if you don't see a doctor, there is no point in going.

As to what kind of "sick" we are talking about, you can take your pick.

At this point, any dialogue is hampered by a conspicuously uneven level of experience, insight, and understanding...so, there's a disjunction...too wide probably, to be overcome.

On that point I would concur, as you obviously have no understanding of those of us who have dedicated our lives to saving the lives of others.
 
Wow!

I guess I didn't realize the hatred out there for us Doc's...I thought it was just for the Lawyers:)

I concur the NEJM has come around over the last 20 yrs but it has an agenda and although it generally is considered one of the most prestigious mags in the medical community it still is privately own company and makes its money by sell subscriptions...just like everyone of those gun rags we buy every month.

Controversial is good...it widens exposure....exposure means more advertising dollars. The article, as noted, is written by 2 Lawyers who are stating their opinion...and that all. I wouldn't be surprised to see a counterpoint at some point as well (I hope).

I won't read it..its to long and honestly I don't care what they think. Just let it be known that these opinions don't necessary reflect that of all Doc's

I spend all day helping people get better. Sometime people don't get better no matter what. Some will get better despite us and a few don't. We remain human but most of us do our very best without any hidden agenda. There is no question however that the work as a whole saves and prolongs life and after all you can't shoot much when your dead.::uhoh:

"Guns don't kill people... all too often, doctors do."

Truck drivers kill people, car drivers, taxi drivers kill people, construction workers kill people...the list goes on. Accidents and mistake happen...no one is immune

Hard not to take some of these comments personally..if you don't want or need medical help fine..that gives us a little more time to spend with those who appreciate it.
 
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