New Ruger Vaquero Montado in .357

[Goodshot]

I have an old model vaq sherrifs model (3.75" barrel)in 45 and have the cowboy bug. Now I am lusting for a new Montado in .357 mag. What do you think the chances of Ruger making these sometime soon ? Currently they are only offered in 45.

 

[Jim March]

Long odds. Here's why: the gun is marketed to the MOUNTED cowboy action shooters. And we're not talkin' bicycles, we're talking actual horseflesh.

The Montado has a SuperBlackHawk hammer. Which is a more intelligent hammer for controlled, thumb-cocked fire. But it's not legal in CAS/SASS except for mounted, because the extra safety of a controllable hammer is allowed so as not to shoot a horse, but not allowed for "foot soldier peons".

Since the 45 is considered a better caliber than 357 for all forms of SASS/CAS shooting (and to a limited degree it is), and since horsemen have enough money around that the lower ammo costs in 357 don't matter, it's likely this gun will remain a factory 45.

The root problem is that CAS/SASS's rulebooks are an elitist, idiotic mess that puts "period correctness" over safety and period-correct shooting techniques involving strong-hand cocking - except of course where the life of a fat cat's horse conflicts with the rules Nazis.

Sorry if I seem bitter. I'd like to play too. But not at the cost of learning safe and effective SA combat shooting. The rulesmeisters would rather play at historical correctness than admit the skills still matter.

You can add an SBH hammer to a standard 4.68" gun no problem...$35, drop it in yourself. You'll have the SBH "curved groove" thumbpad versus the "checkering" pattern on the Montado's hammer - I like the SBH thumbpad myself, helps lots with hammer slipping. That's the only difference between SBH and Montado hammers.

Having the barrel chopped back is trickier but any number of gunsmiths will do it. Not necessary in my book, I like the full ejector on the 4.68" tube.

 

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

maybe they should make those fellas eat hard tack and beans and shoot black powder only ,and not bathe for a few weeks or monthes ! I wonder how much they would like period correctness then ?::

 

[Stainz]

Ruger did make a SS 3.5-3.75" .357M Vaquero with the shortened Blackhawk gripframe/grip a few years back. My pusher had one for some time - it seemed to sell about as poorly then as the 3.75" BHG .45 Colt models. I believe the grip panels were the white plastic like you would see on the last of the similarly short-gripped .32M SSMs.

Stainz

 

[Gary A]

Back when the BHG models were available, I held out hope that Ruger would make a 3.5 inch birdhead .357 but they never did to my knowledge. When they came out with a .357 BHG it was 4.6 inch which I never liked as much.

 

[cane]

Jim, and all you others, SASS is a game, based on playing "cowboys", it is not combat shooting. Beside SASS there is Western 3 Gun, it allows more movement and modern gun handling. SASS has issued 77,000 badges and probably has 40,000 active shooters. If you haven't tried it, please don't bad mouth it. You are not limited to "strong hand cocking", many shooters use the "Weaver" stance and cock the hammer with their off hand. Calling someone who enforces the rules of a sport a "Nazi", is hardley the high road way.

 

[Coyote3855]

.45 Colt a required caliber for SASS mounted shooting because competitors are required to use the blanks (yes, SASS mounted uses blanks, not live ammo) provided by the match sponsors. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game. And go easy on those who do.

 

[Jim March]

You are not limited to "strong hand cocking", many shooters use the "Weaver" stance and cock the hammer with their off hand.

You don't understand my point.

You're absolutely correct, you CAN use a Weaver hold and cock with the off-hand in SASS/CAS. The rules on gun modifications require it for most shooters, save those with the biggest hands and long ape-like thumbs.

Thing is, we can shoot Montados and other SBH/Bisley hammer slightly customized Rugers from the Weaver while cocking with the STRONG hand.

And that's the preferred technique for combat shooting, because otherwise you're forced to shoot two-handed and there may be times you can't. Either one of your hands/arms is shot up, or your off-hand is being used to do something else important.

When CAS/SASS limits hammer modifications, they eliminate proper technique. And I'm sorry if I offend, but I find that VERY offensive.

It gets worse. CAS/SASS allows unlimited internal mods. So you can spend $800 on a linebored cylinder and custom barrel, $200 on a Ron Powers drop-in action job and you're perfectly legal. Or spend $1000+ on a "Race tuned" (or so they claim) STI.

What you can't do is spend $35 on a mod designed to make the gun fit your hand, for safe and effective shooting in all circumstances.

I can understand rules designed to prevent an "arms race" but that's NOT what's going on here.

It's as if NASCAR allowed unlimited engine/tranny/suspension mods, but limited seats, steering wheels, gearshifts and their -=positions=- to just one fixed set, so most drivers are either squished up in there or stretching futilely for the wheel and pedals.

It's not "just the rules of the game", it's marked and obvious insanity. And you'll note that the horse-mounted rules WERE changed to something sane due to the requests of the richest participants - those with horses.

It's not just asinine, it's elitist asinine - the worst kind.

I had not heard of Western 3-gun until now but in reading the rules, it appears to be run by people who agree with me completely on where SASS/CAS had gone.

 

[cane]

Jim, perhaps you should read the SASS rules a little closer. "Hammers may be replaced or exchanged with hammers designed for the same size frame" There are several allowed modification/exchanges of grip frames allowed. In fact about the only modification not allowed is installing a Bisley hammer on a pistol without a Bisley grip frame. Again, SASS/CAS is not a combat oriented game. The operative word here is game, played by a bunch of people whose average age is 58, reliving their youthful longings to still play cowboy. If you want to practice "combat" there is IPSC, where you shoot $3,000 pistols with beer can size sights, held to a skeleton holster by a magnet. Or a slightly more realistic IDPA match. Or you can go to the range anytime and practice "combat" shooting with a single action modified any way you want to. Have you ever been to a SASS match? If not, you would be welcome, perhaps it would dispel some of your misconceptions. Go to www.SASSnet.com, and when you get to the home page, click on "affiliated clubs", they are listed by state. Find one nearby and go to a match, you may be surprised at your warm welcome, it's not like any other shooting competition you have ever been to. That invitation is extended to each and every one of you who would like to attend. We have clubs in all 50 states, and several foreign countries. BTW you can download the rulebooks from that site also. Hope to see you there, "Bad Hand" SASS 24260

 

[Stinger]

Jim is familiar with SASS/CAS (as am I.) What he is referring to (I hate to speak for him,) is that you CANNOT exchange a Blackhawk hammer with a Bisley hammer, which would allow for a better fit for one handed shooting.

 

[cane]

Jim/Stinger, that's the rules, if you can't live with them don't play. My alias "Bad Hand" comes from the fact that I was seriously injured, one of my friends said "you got dealt a bad hand", and it resulted in me having a bad hand. I shoot, one handed, cocking with the hand holding the pistol, Ruger Bisleys, old and new vaqueros, S&W schofield, S&W #3 (Uberti clones) and Remington 75's. I don't have particularly big hands. Apparently neither you nor Jim are SASS members, have either of you ever attended a shoot? After all, Jim admitted he had never heard of W3G, which sounds like his kind of game. Again I have problems with people who call people who enforce the rules "Nazis". BTW do you know how the rules on modifications came about?

 

[Stinger]

First off, I'm not a fan of throwing around the word 'NAZI' either. Jim's a great fella and a superb shooter, but I think he's being a little loose with his descriptions.

I don't understand what I said that would make you imply that I'm not familiar with the sport. You seem to think I'm not, but the fact that I know the rules would suggest otherwise, right?

I'm quite familiar with the sport and am an active member. Jim's point is that you could spend a year's salary on internal modifications, but aren't allowed to make practical (yet superficial) changes which would lead to better safety and technique. I neither agreed nor disagreed with his statement.

 

[cane]

OK stinger, are you a member of SASS, if so are you a ROI/ROII? You really don't appear to know the rules, do you know how the "firearms covenants" came about? If you don't agree with SASS rules, you sure wouldn't agree with NCOWS, they don't allow the Ruger Bisley at all.

 

[MrBorland]

BTW do you know how the rules on modifications came about?BTW do you know how the rules on modifications came about?

Please do tell. This would've been the more relevant and helpful info to include in your earlier post. You're ostensibly replying to Jim & stinger, but really just airing your beef about the word "Nazi". Jim's point that a Bisley hammer on a Vaquero frame might fit some better, but it isn't allowed seems like a valid point. So, why is this mod not allowed? I'm interested.

 

[Jim March]

Are you telling me that I can add a SuperBlackHawk OR Bisley hammer to a New Vaquero?

I'd be happy with either. My New Vaq wears an SBH hammer right now.

I was told the Montado was limited purely to mounted competition because the rules on setting up the gun's ergonomics are looser there. Which makes perfect sense: a horse could get killed and more importantly, one-handed control of the gun is CRITICAL.

My point is that one-handed control is ALWAYS critical, for everybody.

I'll ask again: what possible sense does it make to allow $1k+ worth of internal mods but ban $35 worth of "make the gun fit your hand"? That's beyond just "silly", it's completely illogical and goes contrary to safe practices and the preservation of effective SA shooting techniques. It instead breeds "game-worthy only" "techniques" such as off-hand cocking from a two-handed hold. You can't possibly defend that as being a good idea. Low-bucks ergonomics mods have to be allowed.

Cane, in the REAL "old West" there were a lot more SA gun types available than now, and then as now people bought what fit their hands. The S&W types in particular fit smaller hands well but there was a slew of others. The selection is now a lot more limited, or at a minimum anything that isn't a near-clone of the Colt SAA goes for big money - look at Beretta's new S&W near-clones, with prices starting at $800+ and for that you get a gun pretty limited in terms of power.

The solution for low-bucks people is to get one of the common Colt SAA near-clones (Ruger, etc) and modify the fit. But that's banned in SASS/CAS and they haven't thought out the financial implications, OR the implications for effective (and safe) SA shooting techniques.

Now as to "he admits he didn't know about W3G"...did you check their list of events? A total of six sites running competitions, in only three states. I think I can be forgiven for overlooking something that tiny.

 

[Stinger]

I've made two posts trying to explain what another poster wrote. How does that lead you to believe that I don't know the rules?

Did you read either one of my posts? Really? If so, please read them again, you might have me confused with someone else, we all look alike, you know.

And I'm not a ROI or II (I'd much rather shoot than run a timer ), but I do have the ability to read. A title does not imply or dismiss knowledge. Most RO's I've read on the Wire know markedly less about the sport/game than they would like to think.

 

[Brian Williams]

about the only modification not allowed is installing a Bisley hammer on a pistol without a Bisley grip frame

I hate a bisley grip, it makes my wrist sore, and the original hammer hurts my thumb to cock with my shooting thumb. So this rule "in order to maintain Historical accuracy" for me stinks. They allow adjustable sights that were not in use in that era, why not the hammer change.

I think I would like to show up with a pair of broom handle Mausers(It is SA) and a 1897 win and a colt pump.

 

[Jim March]

For reference, this is my gun right now:

SuperBlackHawk hammer, modified (but still classed as "fixed") sights.

If I'm reading the W3G rules, this gun is legal as is, right now. It would be flat banned in CAS/SASS for the hammer alone - correct?

Let's talk about those sights for a sec. I *think* they'd be banned in CAS/SASS, right? BUT: the Freedom Arms '97 frame fixed sights are functionally identical to what I'm running here.

So, if I buy a $1500 gun I'm OK...but if I spend $450 on a gun and add $150 on sights to bring it up to the same spec, that's not "period correct" and I'm banned?

Y'all see where this is going?

The rules aren't set up for fairness. They're arbitrary and OFTEN discriminate on economic lines...the exact opposite of pretty much every other set of rules-limits in firearm competition and for that matter car racing.

If a set of rules are directly set up to allow features to be used ONLY if people spend big money for them...I'm sorry, but the term "rules Nazi" isn't far-fetched. It's elitist and discriminatory.

 

[cane]

Jim; The rules say you can change hammers from like frames, therefore a Super Blackhawk could be put on a Blackhawk which is a "Modern Class" revolver, of course it could still be used in age based classes. The new model vaquero is a different sized frame (smaller) so it would appear that the SBH couldn't be used. As for the Bisley hammer, it can only be used with the Bisley grip, and since the NMV hasn't been made with a Bisley grip yet it would appear that it wouldn't be allowed. However you may change the hammer on the old model vaquero.blackhawk, if you change the grip also. The NMV has been built with 2 different hammers, one considerably taller than the other, both are SASS legal. The Montado was a limited edition for Davidson's specifically marketed for mounted shooters who play by different rules. It would appear that if you bought a Montado, buffed out the groves on the front of the grip, and narrowed the hammer it would be a legal SASS pistol, notice I said "would appear".
Mr. Borland, in answer to your question, basically the membership votes on it. There were some concerns as to SASS firearms becoming "race guns" and pricing some members out of the game, just as some other sports have. With that in mind a committee (what else?) was formed composed of territorially governors (TGs). Each SASS affiliated club elects a TG to represent them with the "Wild Bunch" who own and run SASS. Every December all the TGs meet in Las Vegas during the annual SASS convention, and discuss and vote on various issues involving SASS. After the agenda is voted on, it goes to the WB who have the final say. So it was the membership at large, through their TGs who drew up the firearms covenants and presented them to the WB who approved them. As for types of firearms let's see. There are of course originals but there are various Rugers, all of the single actions are legal. That would be the SBH, the BH, old model Vaquero, new model Vaquero, and the Single Six size in .32 H&R. That's 4 different frame sizes that everyone should be able to find a fit. Then there are the imported "clones". The SA colts with various barrel lengths, the 1851/60/61 Army/Navy's, the conversions and the Colt open tops. Not to forget the Ruger old Army in 2 different configurations. There are Remington '58 (with or without conversion cylinders) the 75s and 90s. The S&W Model 3, Russian, and Schofield and I'm sure I've missed some. Yes SASS can be expensive, requires a minimum of 4 firearms, 2 pistols, a shotgun, and a rifle. Probably should plan on 1 spare of each. There is the clothing, gun card, cost of ammo, travel to matches, entry fees, etc. But so is golf or bass fishing. Remember this is a fantasy game, we aren't training for gunfights, face it in the old west, most "cowboys" had one pistol, and maybe a rifle. BTW Stinger, you never answered, are you a SASS member?

 

[cane]

Brian, the S&W number 3 "American" had adjustable sights but remember adjustable sights just put you in the "modern class". Both the Winchester model 97 and the Colt lightening pump (and modern clones) are legal main match long guns. As for your c-96 Mauser, afraid it's not a revolver so you couldn't use it. On the other hand many clubs have what they call a "wild bunch" (after the movie) match. It is not a SASS sanctioned match so there aren't any standard rules. Most allow any firearm that was made prior to 1917. Think of all that allows, basic 1911 (no ports, optic sights etc) C-96, double action Colt/S&Ws, various European semi-automatics. Browning design semi-auto shotguns, Winchester .351/.401 semi auto rifles, military bolt guns firing downloaded cast bullets, it is fun. I've shot it using my 2 Webley revolvers, a Remington model 11 shotgun, and either my 95 Winchester, or attached the stock to my Mauser and used it.
It would appear that the Vaqhawk would be a legal main match pistol.

 

[Stinger]

I'm quite familiar with the sport and am an active member

 

[Stainz]

While I found SASS events interesting, I guess for me, at least, the 'dress-up' part still has no allure. Also, I find their board of governors 'rules' somewhat inconsistent. If the idea is period correctness, why not limit propellant to black powder - and calibers to pre-1897 like the firearms? How realistic is a .357M Vaquero, whether loaded with 1935 designed .357 Magnum cases or 1898 .38 S&W Special cases packed with smokeless propellant (Late 1890's.)? Recall that the 1898 .38 S&W 'Special' AND the 1907 .44 S&W 'Special' were termed 'special' because the firearms could handle either bp or smokeless powder. It would be some time before the .45 Colt round, for example, would be offered in smokeless.

I understand allowing Rugers... that is literally all you had in the SASS/CAS infancy. Well, that and the Italian Clones (A. Uberti made period-correct firearms for spaghetti western movie props.). Ruger did promote the new hobby - even as recently as a few years back with the .32M SSMs (Of course, the .32 H&RM - or .32M - devised by H&R in 1984, is a tad new...), which sadly failed (The cowgirl magazine ad was cute!). The Henry Rifle .44M 'Big Boy' was made, in Brooklym, NY (My home town!), for the SASS crowd - who denied it's use initially - it wasn't a copy of an older design, although it sure looked 'antique'! Too many dichotomies for me in those rules.

Now, the S&W .44 American - gads, why mention a firearm you can't get commercial bullets - or ammo - for today? Recall, few total of those guns were made from 1869-1874 - and some were in .44 Henry rimfire, too. That stepped .44 S&W ('American') bullet was difficult to make. Now, the #3 in .44 Russian, that was a mass produced round - in bp. S&W would make 150,000 for the Russians. In fact, in that 'cowboy era', they made more total big bores than Colt! See many S&Ws or their clones at SASS events? The S&W Heritage Schofield of a few years back was close, except for the transfer bar, to the original. The most common break-top clone today is in .45 Colt - not possible back then due to the available metals. Oddly, no mass produced leverguns existed in .45 Colt then, either... another modern 'nicety'. Too many dichotomies! Besides, I hate shotguns... and playing 'dress-up'. The 'alias' is a problem, too...

In fairness, SASS-folk I've met are both collectively and individually the nicest gun-folk you'll meet. Their events are super - they'll loan you guns and let you 'play' in street clothes, too... try that at an IPSC/IDPA/ICORE match!

Oh yeah, I put Bisley hammers on everything SA from Ruger... even my BHG SSM!

Stainz

PS I had to add this: 'cane' - you are in error re the S&W .44 American. The S&W .44 American (1869) - and the .44 Russian (1871) and .45 S&W (Or Schofield - 1875) that followed - were all fixed sight revolvers. You may be mistaking the top break latch for an adjustable rear sight, a la the Blackhawks. They have a notch.

 

[cane]

Yup, there are a lot of inconsistencies in SASS. But a lot of people like to dress up like cowboys (or sheriffs, soldiers, railroad engineers, etc) and shoot "cowboy guns". SASS has between 45,000 & 47,000 active shooters, maybe the largest shooting organization in the US. It has 491 affiliated clubs in the US, 16 in Canada, 15 in Europe, 12 in Australia, and 1 in South Africa. When you join you can register an "alias", but I know several shooters who use their legal name as their "alias". You can shoot using modern jeans (no designer style with writing on the back pockets), a plain work shirt, lace up boots, and a cowboy hat, it wouldn't be CAS without a hat. Yes there are rules about equipment, just as in golf, tennis, baseball, football, and competitive bass fishing. Think about this, if it wasn't for SASS/CAS, there wouldn't be any of the Italian clones, Ruger (old and new) Vaqueros, Henry (1860), Winchester 66, & 73, or S&W Schofields made by S&W. It's a fantasy game, you can shoot your single actions is IDPA, or metal plates, and bowling pins. I've done all 3. If you think SASS is restrictive, look up NCOWS, they don't allow Ruger Bisleys at all. I encourage any and all of you to attend a SASS match, the SASSnet.com has a listing of all the clubs by state, and when their matches are. If you choose not to participate in our game, it is a game, not pseudo combat training, that's your choice. But please don't bad mouth it.

 

[MrBorland]

I don't think anyone's bad mouthed or ridiculed the game itself. Even Jim said he'd like to play. It seems to me that some simply have an issue with what they see as a capricious rulebook. At any rate, thanks for all the info. I might even attend a SASS match to check it out for myself.

 

[radwriter]

Montado .357

I saw a .45 LC Montado for the first time a few weeks ago. It definitely fit my hand better than anything else I have tried or used. (I have Uberti and Sauer and Sohn SA revolvers). All of my CAS weapons are .357. They work just fine at the rather close-in distances in CAS.

But the Montado interested me because of the lower hammer height and easier target acquisition along with better balance. As I was about to leave the store, I asked about consecutive SNs, and the mgr got on the phone to the distributor (I assume that is who he talked to). When he came back, he said that Ruger had just started making or delivering the Montado in .357.

Now if SASS will only allow it, I'll be a happy six gunner.