Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by peacebutready, Sep 15, 2021.
Should a manufacturer(s) make a scout rifle that makes use of stripper clips?
If you study Coopers concept it did evolve over the years. His idea of the perfect rifle changed somewhat, and if he were still around I firmly believe he would have continued to let his perfect rifle continue to evolve.
Forward mounted scopes are a handicap, but if you want to be able to reload a rifle fast using stripper clips are a necessary evil. I see no reason for them to continue to be on a "scout" rifle with the use of detachable magazines and better modern optics. A small 1-4X or similar scope mounted conventionally does everything better. And I believe Cooper would agree if he were still alive.
These Aussies or British probably had stripper clips for the Enfield #5.
Very many LE "Jungle" Carbines are still around, and in very good condition; this is for the many viewers who Don't know.
One soldier does have an M-1 Carbine, but my point was to mention the Enfield #5s on the right and left sides of the photo.
Me I know how to use strippers well and also have been familiar with the original "scout concept" rifles built on 600 Remingtons since 1981 . On the first one I made I had stripper clip guides machined in when it was made. The Colonel applauded that ! I also had a rebarreled to 5.56 Model 600 with same type clip guides machined into it when it was modified to take AR mags a few years later.
One thing about strippers are you greatly decrease the size of your combat load versus magazines, tho you need at least a couple mags in case one fails . The can be near as fast to reload if you have good access to the chamber to do so.
Lastly as I have posted recently about the rough scout Moisin carbine I'm building I bought some Bulgarian Nagant clips which perfectly fit my Bulgy 38/59 carbine, they are much beefier than the modern commercial ones which I had been using with my two Finnish Nagants I sold .
It's handy, but I don't think it is much of an advantage on a Scout Rifle. Light weight, quick handling and accuracy were favored by Cooper over firepower; in fact, at his direction the Steyr Scout featured a second magazine detent that served as a magazine cutoff.
Evidently the No.5 remains fairly popular in the Khyber Pass -- here's a screen shot from a recent YT video, showing the back wall from a Darra Adamkhel gunshop in Pakistan:
*back in the day
jmr40? Honest, nonconfrentational inquiry.
Only if said misguided manufacturer believes the dwindling population of Cooperites is a worthy market.
Scout mounted optics are a proven disadvantage at the very thing they were touted to enable, so the ONLY remaining purpose is reduced to top loading stripper clips, which is another proven disadvantage over DBM’s.
It’s an outdated notion for a paradigm which scantly applied outside of fantasy even when it was developed, and which has been disproven as favorable across every application by every other expert in the field.
#1 with sun at your back and no head right behind them you do get flares off the rear lens that ruins hunting shots , why I put QD rings on all mine and don't hunt with them any more since late 80s.
#2 the light gathering ability at twilight can be a great asset with a fine piece of optic glass , but you won't get it with a forward mounted magnifying optic. Red dots work differently for low light use, but you won't be counting antlers thru one in the dark !
#3 for fast work in most lighting situations they are very good for intermediate ranges , but not as good as say a proper Acog as proven in 20 years of warfare.
I did prefer the stripper fed guns over the mag fed Savage. I just find I can get the gun loaded quicker and easier. But I learned on old military bolt guns and learned to use strippers so Im pretty familiar with using them.
The Scout scopes do have a couple of issues, but for what the guns are, and are likely used for, I think the positives outweigh the negatives, or at least cancel each other out. That said, after using them and a red dot in their place, I do prefer the red dots.
I also prefer the Ching Sling set up that Cooper recommended, and they are really hard to beat, and not just for a Scout.
I went through that Scout stage back in the late 90's, and have since moved on from it. I do like old military bolt guns that are stripper fed, over most of what you see commercially today. Same goes for older commercial guns. The new guns are geared to a different type of shooter it seems, and I guess Im an old and antiquated fogey.
The two older bolt guns I do still have, are an old 03, and an old FR-8 in 308. If I had to choose between them, the FR-8 gets the nod hands down. Great guns and good shooters. Those old "straight bolts" are the ticket too.
No ... but they certainly carried beaucoup ammo in chargers for those Nº5s.
Sorry ... could not help myself.
BTW, great pic. Thanks! Makes me hot & sweaty just looking at it.
If they could do so as the M1A/M14 does (did/can), whilst using a detachable box mag, that might prove somewhat popular. I had an LRB Arms M14SA that had a stripper clip attachment on the receiver, and I thought it was very interesting. It worked well too, directly into the magazine. Best of both worlds.
But it seems like a lot to ask of a company. Double stack detachable magazine compatible, stripper clip feeder, and a permanent rear aperture sight, with a forward mounted rail for quick detach optics. All in a bolt gun?
I think most people would rather just swap magazines than pay for what that would cost. And of course, the rifle itself would have to be thoroughly decent for the price point.
I like mine quite a bit. The basic idea is that it is intuitive to keep both eyes open while using them, which renders the "field of view" somewhat irrelevant.
Of course, I still neck size rounds for my Scout rifle, so doubtless should be disregarded as an irrelevant old man.
My distance vision is pretty poor and I can't wear glasses so I use the scope as my corrective lens. Perhaps if I had 20/20 vision the concept might make more sense to me.
Gunsmiths used to know how to do things like that. Not much call for that skill today.
The extended eye relief scope actually serves four purposes; 1) It provides more peripheral vision with the shooters aiming eye because the scope is further from the eye 2) It allows one to use stripper clips and/or easily access the top of an enclosed magazine 3) It allows the mounting of a back up aperture sight on the receiver and 4) It allows many of the rifles to be carried one handed where they are the most balanced; at the magazine.
Back when I was shooting High Power I used a competition rifle that was based on a Remington 722 action. For a stripper clip guide I found a random scope base whose holes lined up with those on the rear receiver ring, that was long enough to extend over the rear of the magazine. I then cut it to length and with a Dremel tool and files cut a slot in it that would accept stripper clips. I got the idea from another competitor who was using a Remington 700 with the same set up.
I'm not sure the concept has evolved as much as folks have developed their own definitions of "Scout Rifle" and now tend to slap a forward mounted scope on any random rifle and proclaim it a Scout Rifle. Most people (Whom I suspect have never owned or used a Scout Rifle) want to view a Scout Rifle through the lens of a hunting rifle. A Scout Rifle in it's original context was never intended to be a dedicated hunting rifle. Rather it is a rifle that is not perfect for any one task, yet is capable of performing many, very well.
I built mine, which is a .308 based on an FR-8 ('98) Mauser action, back in the '90's. I've been hunting big game now for close to 45 years and I'd almost bet I've killed more deer and hogs with my Scout Rifle than all other rifles combined, and I know for certain I've killed more with it than any other single rifle I own. I started carrying it when I was helping a rancher buddy with his cattle and farming. It rode muzzle down in the seat of the pickup and didn't take up much room, and I found it super easy to swing in and out of the cab of a pickup or tractor when a bunch of hogs were spotted, but it worked equally well when stand hunting. It is also one of those rare rifles that somehow shoots the full-tilt jacketed hunting load close to the same POI as a medium power cast bullet load. This made it really nice for my oldest daughter who used it to take her first two or three deer. The combination of a light recoiling load and the easy to use EER scope made it much easier for her.
Forward mounted scopes, like anything, can be a handicap. In the 25 or so years I hunted with a Scout Rifle and the dozens of heads of game I took with it, only once was the EER scope a handicap. It was late one evening when I topped a terrace in a wheat field and could see the head and neck of a buck behind another terrace 100 yds. or so in the distance. With the sun at my back, he couldn't make me out, but the sun was glaring off the ocular lens so I couldn't get the shot. The following year I was walking a fenceline when a crafty old 12 point let me walk past while he hid in tall grass. Once I was about 75 yds. past he jumped from his bed and took off like a rocket. I still remember how easy it was to pick the buck up in the scope, swing out in front of him and fire. He cartwheeled so hard he broke the left beam of his antler as well as two or three points.
On the subject of magazines, I personally, for my own use, do not care for detachable magazines in such a rifle as they're just something else to break or lose, leaving one with a really slow-to-load single shot rifle. When one spends enough time in the woods, especially far from roads, vehicles and spare rifles, one learns the value of a solid utility rifle.
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