Dagnabit I want a scout rifle, and it's all your fault!

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Cooldill said:
???

According to who? The M1A Scout is probably the best scout rifle made. The firepower is excellent, fires a large round, is short, what's not to like?
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This thread refers to a Jeff Cooper spec'd scout rifle. Which means a target weight range of 6.6 lbs to 7.7 lbs for a .308 rifle with optic, sling, and sights included in that weight.

Basically, something the size and weight of a nice .22LR carbine, but chambered in .308 Winchester.
 
Cooldill said:
Oh... so you mean the very strict specification laid out by the Cooper Troopers? In that case, a Ruger Gunsite.
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Well, those were the parameters...
I hear ya though. I'd love to have an M1A! Make a change to my diet a bit and lose the 2 or 3 pounds there instead to make up for it.

That's too rich for my blood though. The closest I'll probably ever have to a true scout is my M44. And I won't hack it up to suit an ideal that I don't have much use for.
 
Balrog said:
If you are thinking about getting a scout rifle, I would go with the Ruger. Mainly because it is a name brand, and when you realize you have a rifle you don't need and have no use for, you can probably sell it to some chump who thinks he needs one.

My scout rifle is the same 6.5 pound AR I use for home defense. It is chambered i the blasphemous 5.56 NATO round, but I am OK with that since it is unlikely I will need to shoot a rhino while I am patrolling behind enemy lines.
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Uh, that would take all the fun out of it! The whole point of this endeavor is to build something.
 
Fun is a perfectly good reason!

Get a Ruger Gunsite Scout wih 16" barrel. Michael Bane took one to Africa and it performed well. Look at "The Safari" section of the Scout Rifle Study website.

If you are right handed, then buy the synthetic stock from Ruger. Add Andy's Leather scout sling, Burris 2-7x scout scope, and a ten round magazine. It should be under 3.5 kg.

Look at the 1994 definition. There is a 1998 definition, but it not presented as a list.

http://scoutriflestudy.com/chapter-5-the-definitions/

5. The 1994 Definition (From Cooper’s Personal Papers)13a

Weight: 3.5 kilos (7.7 pounds)

Length: One meter (39.4 inches) maximum.

Chambering: Power no greater than the 308 Winchester with 7mm-08 acceptable where a military round is not permitted.

Action: Short-action, available in both left and right hand, with smooth bolt knob.

Barrel: About 19 inches

Accuracy: Not mentioned

Finish: Not mentioned

Sights: Auxiliary iron ghost ring sights.

Optics: Fixed low power telescope mounted as low over the bore as possible.

Trigger: Good

Stock: Short synthetic stock, with radiused heel.

Sling Swivels: Quick detachable hammerhead sling sockets at three points.

Sling: C.W. Sling and Ching Sling

Accessories: Detachable magazine desirable but not necessary, Clifton vanishing bipod, butt magazine. Front sight tucked under the scope.
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The 1998 definition is less defined and removed many of the hard numbers. This means the Ruger Gunsite Scout with either 16" or 18.7" barrel would be fine if it met the general criteria.



6. The 1998 Definition (From Cooper’s Personal Papers)13b

The most important thing about the scout is that it is a “general-purpose” rifle.

Its most outstanding characteristic is handiness.

It is light, compact, and “friendly.”

It will “put ‘em where you point ‘em” from arm’s length out to a range too great for any sensible attempt.

The essential characteristics of the scout rifle are compactness and with what may be called “shootability.”

It is easy to carry, convenient to pack into a boat, car or airplane, powerful enough for any targets short of pachyderms, and easily provisioned throughout the world.

It is ideally adapted to the “Snapshot,” and quite able to group well into the vital zone of a 200-pound target out to around 400 paces – under field conditions.

When it comes to hiking and climbing, and running and jumping, leaping in and out of hunting cars, and quick selection of position, the scout beings to shine.
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I think out of the box the Ruger Gunsite Scout with synthetic stock is as close as you can get to Coopers "Ideal" rifle. Many people get hung up on details. Cooper's concept was actually very broad and allowed for differences in personal preference.

The Scout concept isn't intended for military use. It was meant to be an all around hunting and survival rifle that could be used for defensive applications if necessary. It should be compact and as light as practical with enough power to take down game in the 400-500 lb weight range and capable of hitting human size targets out to 300-400 yards.

Cooper gave recommended specs that he considered ideal, but by no means are those set in stone. Even Cooper had "scout" rifles that were far from his ideal recommendations.
 
The Scout concept isn't intended for military use.
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Actually, he mentioned military use in a scouting role. But, the military has other ideas :)

As for the details...the last spec is wide open. His earlier specs were far more specific. But it is not a Scout Rifle if it doesn't meet spec. Therefore, a Scout Rifle was no more than 3.5 kg with sling, scope and empty magazine until the 1998 spec. I like the 1994 spec and use that. I posted both specs earlier in this thread.

But, it doesn't really matter so long as you like the rifle.
 
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The barrel on the Gunsite Scout is too short according to Cooper. The 16" bbl bleeds power from the .308 cartridge, and although there are a couple of models with 18" barrels available, they do not come with the synthetic stocks so those models are overweight. Of course they had to stick a stupid flash hider on the end of the barrel, space better taken up with an extra couple inches of barrel to increase velocities.

I still can't believe how bad Ruger and Gunsite missed the mark on making a "true scout" with the Gunsite Scout. It's a tarted up tacticool rifle designed to appeal to the masses. It is not a true scout rifle, and while it is closer than some, it has issues.

The Steyr Scout is probably still the closest commercially available option. Prices on them have come down to about the $1300 mark in recent years. They used to be $2000 rifles and just too expensive.

Really if you want a true scout rifle, you're either going to have to build it yourself or order one of the custom scouts available from small shops for prices that make the Steyr look expendable.
 
I will be using a 16'' threaded barrel. Cooper will just have to live with that.

Again, definitely building it, and definitely not going semi auto.
 
Cooldill said:
I still can't believe how bad Ruger and Gunsite missed the mark on making a "true scout" with the Gunsite Scout. It's a tarted up tacticool rifle designed to appeal to the masses. It is not a true scout rifle, and while it is closer than some, it has issues.
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Ruger gave it a respectable try with the Ruger Frontier years ago. The only thing it lacked was sights (and 19" barrel, apparently). http://www.ruger.com/news/2006-02-01a.html

The trouble was, the Frontier was apparently ignored by the gun buying masses. So, it was discontinued.

Ruger (just like Savage, Mossberg, etc.) had found that tacticool looking guns sell well to the gun buying masses. So, we got the GSR. Which is a great general purpose rifle on its own even if it isn't a true Cooper spec'd scout rifle.
 
Do they have stripper clip guides and magazine cutoffs? If not, then they're just scout lookalikes. That's the heart and sole of the scout rifle is the ability to take stripper clips. Take that away and there's no reason to put the scope forward, and then it's not a scout rifle!:eek:

Besides, I want to build it. Not interested in paying someone else to have all my fun for me.:)
 
My FR-8 based scout rifle would properly be called a "pseudo-scout" because of its weight (I don't recall the exact weight, but it was over the usual scout rifle weight limits). It came with the best open sights ever put on a Mauser military rifle, it has an internal magazine, stripper clip guides, and a 17.7" barrel. It's in a synthetic stock with the XS scout mount, the Leupold 2.5X scout scope, and a Timney trigger. The stock has a thick recoil pad which puts it about 5/8" over the 39" length limit. So, overweight and over long, but a joy to handle and to shoot.
SANY1337.JPG
 
grampajack said:
Do they have stripper clip guides and magazine cutoffs? If not, then they're just scout lookalikes. That's the heart and sole of the scout rifle is the ability to take stripper clips. Take that away and there's no reason to put the scope forward, and then it's not a scout rifle!:eek:
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You should get over this obsession with stripper clips. They are not the sole reason for moving the scope forward nor even one of the main reasons. The main reasons for the forward mounted scope are fast sight acquisition and the ability to grasp the rifle in one hand at the balance point. The ability to use stripper clips is more of a beneficial side effect, if it's important to you.

You might want to consider what Jeff Cooper had to say on the subject:

A correspondent writes in to ask why I do not make a point of strip−loading a bolt−action rifle. As I see it, the stripper clip was a military device enabling the shooter to recharge a conventional box magazine with one stroke of the hand. This was usually coupled with a bolt stop which prevented closing the bolt on an empty chamber. Thus in a hot emergency, the soldier fired until he could not close the bolt, which told him that it was time for him to strip in another five rounds. This was doubtless a good idea in a Rorke's Drift situation in which a rifleman might be called upon to repel boarders armed with edged weapons. It is something of a nuisance under more normal situations in which it is desirable to top off a magazine which has one or more rounds left in it. The detachable box magazine is a more useful device under such circumstances.
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries Volume Nine, page 9

If you are sincere about building a Scout rifle, I'd suggest some background reading first. Here are some useful links:

http://www.steyrscout.org/project.htm
http://scoutriflestudy.com/the-book/
http://www.molonlabe.net/Commentaries/


 
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